Post-Game Talk: ECSF Gm 4 | FLYERS (A) vs. Islanders (H) | Sun., Aug. 30, 2020

[FLYERSFAN18]

And even then, Laughton hasn't been good in the playoffs at all. He's just not Grant or Thompson, which is a massive upgrade.

JVRs always been part of the solution, not the problem. He's just not being taken advantage of. Which is especially bizarre when he's one of our best goal scorers and we're desperately in need of goals.

It’s a almost as if AV could be wrong about something, but that can’t be true. We all know that no matter the profession, if you have the job you can’t be wrong or bad at said job.

 

[Crescent Street]

Feel like I'm having Deja Vu. At what point is it the player's fault?

First it was Lavy who the players stopped listening to. Then it was "cement head" Berube mismanaging the players. Hakstol who obviously was a complete disaster. This year it's AV. But year after year, it's the same result, same problems, with the same core.

 

[Swic21]

There is no trend of the past 4 playoffs. They're all very different situations.

As I posted earlier...

Year (games)	Points
2008-2009 (6)	5	Rookie year
2009-2010 (23)	21	Cup finals run, played great in the bottom six.
2010-2011 (11)	12	Led team in scoring
2011-2012 (10)	17	Dominated, led team in scoring
2013-2014 (7)	6	Led team in scoring
2015-2016 (6)	1	Injured (and our top scorer in that series only had 2 points)
2017-2018 (6)	3	Hakstol was awful, only Couturier scored more (he had 5 points in the last game)
2019-2020 (10)	5	Playing very well and one of our 2 best forwards

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Seeing it laid out like this should open some peoples eyes. Giroux is an elite level talent, always has been always will be. What gets lost in Giroux greatness is that he’s never been a very good athlete. His success came from his drive, determination, and compete. He’s just that skilled that he’s excelled in a league filled with amazing athletes, and he’s done it for such a long time. Are his best days behind him? Absolutely. So are Crosby’s, Ovechkin, Malkin, and so on. 32 years olds generally don’t get better and better, not in a physical sport like hockey anyways.
I know I rambled, but the Giroux hate on social media has been so disrespectful for a guy that’s given so much and his prime years to this organization. He’s not our leading scorer anymore and rightfully so. He doesn’t need to be.

 

[Swic21]

Also, as I seen someone state a week or so ago, winning the round robin was the worst thing that happened to this team. The fans expectations went through the roof. We were a bubble team, and proved that we are better than that. Beginning of the season, if someone told us all the flyers will make it to round 2 of the playoffs, we would be thrilled. I’m not giving up yet, but if this is it, this season was successful amid the craziness of Covid, the Patrick and Oskar situations, and a “ revamped” roster. We will be a perennial top 3 team in the metro for the next 5-6 years atleast. Provy, Sanheim, Myers, TK, Couts, Farabee, Nak, not to mention Frost, York, Brink. Oh ya, we also have Oskar almost healthy, and the icing on top, if we can get Patrick healthy, our C depth is a strength yet again.
Good times are on the way.

 

[deadhead]

Feel like I'm having Deja Vu. At what point is it the player's fault?

First it was Lavy who the players stopped listening to. Then it was "cement head" Berube mismanaging the players. Hakstol who obviously was a complete disaster. This year it's AV. But year after year, it's the same result, same problems, with the same core.

The problem has always been personnel, HCs don't coach in a vacuum, if you lack depth you play not to lose, b/c no matter how much you shuffle, you will be outnumbered 2 out of 3 shifts. Flyers didn't have adequate forward depth to roll two solid lines, much less three, until this season - then Patrick and Lindblom go down. When Simmonds went south and Hextall traded Schenn, that kept them in that hole for a couple more seasons.

AV would be coaching differently with a healthy Patrick and Lindblom, b/c he'd have 3 lines that could matchup against almost anyone
G - Couts - TK
Lindblom - Hayes - Voracek
JVR - Patrick - Farabee/NAK
Raffl - Laughton - Pitlick
or something like that, makes your life far easier

 

[Starat327]

We didnt lack depth. We purposely added bad depth.

You can't keep trotting out poor lies and excuses for bad management decisions.

 

[Crescent Street]

We didnt lack depth. We purposely added bad depth.

You can't keep trotting out poor lies and excuses for bad management decisions.

OK, so let me add more to the list.

Holmgren, Hextall, now Fletcher. Adding bad depth, holding back youth, bad trades, bad drafting.
Lavy, Berube, Hakstol, AV.

Players = no blame whatsoever.

There has to be a little give and take on both sides. There are no absolutes. That is the problem with debating with some of you, you are so stubborn and will die on the sword over an internet discussion because of some strange ego to uphold on a message board.

 

[Starat327]

OK, so let me add more to the list.

Holmgren, Hextall, now Fletcher. Adding bad depth, holding back youth, bad trades, bad drafting.
Lavy, Berube, Hakstol, AV.

Players = no blame whatsoever.

There has to be a little give and take on both sides. There are no absolutes. That is the problem with debating with some of you, you are so stubborn and will die on the sword over an internet discussion because of some strange ego to uphold on a message board.

Quite literally, absolutely No one is saying the bolded. Keep the strawmen coming, though.

 

[deadhead]

We didnt lack depth. We purposely added bad depth.

You can't keep trotting out poor lies and excuses for bad management decisions.

We've seen Laughton at 3C, he really doesn't belong there b/c he's a defensive black hole at center in AV's scheme.
Bunnaman has played in the playoffs, and looks like what he is, a green rookie not ready for prime time.
Frost lost the job well before we added Thompson and Grant, they didn't block him, he blocked himself.

All the options sucked. People thinking playing the rookies would result in a miracle live in LA-LA land.

TK, Farabee, Myers and Sanheim have all struggled in the playoffs this summer, these are very good but not elite talents who need to mature.
Which is why I hope York and Brink can get at least one more college season under their belt, that JOB can get a year or two in college.
Most young players aren't instant successes, even Couts had a bad playoff at 19.

 

[Appleyard]

We've seen Laughton at 3C, he really doesn't belong there b/c he's a defensive black hole at center in AV's scheme.
Bunnaman has played in the playoffs, and looks like what he is, a green rookie not ready for prime time.
Frost lost the job well before we added Thompson and Grant, they didn't block him, he blocked himself.

All the options sucked. People thinking playing the rookies would result in a miracle live in LA-LA land.

TK, Farabee, Myers and Sanheim have all struggled in the playoffs this summer, these are very good but not elite talents who need to mature.
Which is why I hope York and Brink can get at least one more college season under their belt, that JOB can get a year or two in college.
Most young players aren't instant successes, even Couts had a bad playoff at 19.

Tbf to Laughton he has been the best 3C this season sans Giroux when he has been there...

and was a great 4C for a whole season not so long ago.

He is not ideal at all. But if Patrick is not back next year he is still the best internal option.

 

[deadhead]

Tbf to Laughton he has been the best 3C this season sans Giroux when he has been there...

and was a great 4C for a whole season not so long ago.

He is not ideal at all. But if Patrick is not back next year he is still the best internal option.

You've given up on Frost?
Or Bunnaman at 4C?
Just b/c I don't think they're ready this summer for playoff action, I have high hopes for both of them.

I like Laughton best as a LW who provides an "in the case of emergency, break glass" option at center.
At this point, he's unlikely to suddenly develop defensive instincts, but he's a solid offensive center, maybe if you paired him with Lindblom and NAK/Sandin, but the same holds for Frost.

 

[Appleyard]

You've given up on Frost?
Or Bunnaman at 4C?
Just b/c I don't think they're ready this summer for playoff action, I have high hopes for both of them.

I like Laughton best as a LW who provides an "in the case of emergency, break glass" option at center.
At this point, he's unlikely to suddenly develop defensive instincts, but he's a solid offensive center, maybe if you paired him with Lindblom and NAK/Sandin, but the same holds for Frost.

I mean... I think Frost will be the best 3C next year really!

Giroux-Couturier-Voracek
Farabee-Hayes-Konecny
JvR-Frost-Lindblom
Raffl-Laughton-NAK

would probably be my preferance going into next year at Fwd assuming no-one is traded and Patick is not back.

 

[deadhead]

JVR - Frost or JVR - Laughton gets me nervous, JVR is an offensive force, but I'd rather pair him with a veteran center who's responsible defensively.
Unfortunately, unless Patrick returns, we only have one of those, Couts.

 

[Appleyard]

JVR - Frost or JVR - Laughton gets me nervous, JVR is an offensive force, but I'd rather pair him with a veteran center who's responsible defensively.
Unfortunately, unless Patrick returns, we only have one of those, Couts.

If with Lindblom that fixes that.

And Frost has good defensive IQ... if he can compete better in physical battles next year he should be fine... and good defensively down the line.

 

[Beef Invictus]

OK, so let me add more to the list.

Holmgren, Hextall, now Fletcher. Adding bad depth, holding back youth, bad trades, bad drafting.
Lavy, Berube, Hakstol, AV.

Players = no blame whatsoever.

There has to be a little give and take on both sides. There are no absolutes. That is the problem with debating with some of you, you are so stubborn and will die on the sword over an internet discussion because of some strange ego to uphold on a message board.

Nobody is saying players have no blame. Hence why we've been heaping blame on players where it belongs.

But in the grand scheme of things, stuff like TK, JVR, and Niskanen collapsing into a suckularity is a smaller issue than the heinous roster and system choices made by coaches and management heading into this "run." Choices that minimize any chance of producing goals. When your coaches and GM make goal production harder, it magnifies any issues individual players have because there's just no chance of outscoring any weaknesses.

 

[Striiker]

Yeah, the players get no blame whatsoever. I haven't seen a single post criticizing any of them at all.

We've all been extremely supportive of guys like Thompson and Hagg especially.

And he made a good point. It's not like it's possible to have multiple bad GMs and coaches. When you fire a bad one, the next one is guaranteed to be good. No way they make the same mistakes. So any further problems must be on the players.

 

[Starat327]

We've seen Laughton at 3C, he really doesn't belong there b/c he's a defensive black hole at center in AV's scheme.
Bunnaman has played in the playoffs, and looks like what he is, a green rookie not ready for prime time.
Frost lost the job well before we added Thompson and Grant, they didn't block him, he blocked himself.

All the options sucked. People thinking playing the rookies would result in a miracle live in LA-LA land.

TK, Farabee, Myers and Sanheim have all struggled in the playoffs this summer, these are very good but not elite talents who need to mature.
Which is why I hope York and Brink can get at least one more college season under their belt, that JOB can get a year or two in college.
Most young players aren't instant successes, even Couts had a bad playoff at 19.

So I just want to make sure i have your timeline correct.


Lose Patrick before season starts.
Team gets off to 'meh start'
Choose to not let your 'promisng young player' get experience because "we want to contend", and send him to AHL.
Lindblom lost due to rare cancer.
Some more 'meh'.
Team is playing well.
Team adds Grant and Thompson at the deadline for depth.
Team continues to play well.
Team takes a 3 month break for covid
Team comes back from covid, dismantles the top teams in the east unabashedly using a heavy forecheck style game plan, beating the much speedier and skilled Tampa(albeit, without their 1d)
I'm told young prospects cant be played because theres a realistic chance we can win the cup this year, and you need vets.
Team adjusts style to 'play not to lose', has to ride 22 year old goalie to victory over the last team to eek into the playoffs.
Team plays crappy players 'because there arent any options'.
Team plays another team that may not have even made the playoffs if not for extended format.
Team continues to 'play not to lose', and gets wiped off the map.
"This year wasnt our year anyway because of injuries (despite the players in question having been out for most if not all of this season that was our best chance in decades). We'll have a better roster next year when all the players I think will make an impact will be ready" - despite no active leagues or extended off-season to develop skills for said players to 'get ready'.

I recognize that different styles of hockey work better against different schemes, but at the end of the day, you get 7 chances at this per round, and you have to win 4. I don't know about you, but it doesnt seem like a team that dismantled the top teams in the East needs to "play not to lose" and ice associated garbage players to make some noise this year. It's a poor management decision to chase a game you dont have the personnel to play. Its a poor management decision to play players who are subpar and dont give you the best chance to win.

For as much as people are pulling this "lol, keep defending the players, its not the coaches fault they suck" -- and to be perfectly clear here - YES THE PLAYERS HAVE A HAND IN LOSING, NO ONE IS BLAMELESS -- there seems to be an immense bubble shielding the management from making poor gameplan, personnel, and adjustment decisions.

 

[deadhead]

So I just want to make sure i have your timeline correct.
Lose Patrick before season starts.
Team gets off to 'meh start'
Choose to not let your 'promisng young player' get experience because "we want to contend", and send him to AH
Lindblom lost due to rare cancer.
Some more 'meh'.
Team is playing well.
Team adds Grant and Thompson at the deadline for depth.
Team continues to play well.
Team takes a 3 month break for covid
Team comes back from covid, dismantles the top teams in the east unabashedly using a heavy forecheck style game plan, beating the much speedier and skilled Tampa(albeit, without their 1d)

Frost got 18 straight NHL starts, after a hot two games, he had 4 assists in 16 games.
He then went to the AHL, where he was solid but not special, 41g, 11-8 19 ES, CF 51.12%, CFrel +4.10, HDCF 47.83%, HDCFrel +4.89.
When Frost was sent down, team was 21-12-5.
Team then goes 1-4-1.
Bunnaman enters the lineup, team goes 12-4-1, obviously he was the key player, with his 9 minutes a night at 4C!
Team then goes 6-1 with the two slow veteran centers.

What stands out is the lack of impact by either Frost or Bunnaman in the regular season, so projecting them to be anything in the post-season is a leap of faith.

As far as the RR game against TB, those were glorified exhibition games, as the real playoffs soon revealed.

The problem in the post-season hasn't been Bunnaman/Frost v Thompson/Grant.
It's been the following:

1) the puzzling bad play of Niskanen, a proven playoff performer with 4 months of rest should have excelled
2) the up and down play of Farabee, Myers and Sanheim, they've all shown flashes, but overall have been liabilities
3) TK being MIA
4) Hagg playing worse than his mediocre norm and Ghost unable to win the HC's confidence (probably due to turnovers leading to HDCA), Ghost, Hagg and Braun are the 3 worst D-men in that regard. Ghost was the worst in the regular season.
5) lack of goals - Flyers have 14 ES goals in 10 games. In the regular season they scored 2.5 ES goals per game. The only forwards to score ES goals:
Hayes (3), Raffl, Couts (2), Pitlick, Farabee, Voracek (1).

 

[Starat327]

Frost got 18 straight NHL starts, after a hot two games, he had 4 assists in 16 games.
He then went to the AHL, where he was solid but not special, 41g, 11-8 19 ES, CF 51.12%, CFrel +4.10, HDCF 47.83%, HDCFrel +4.89.
When Frost was sent down, team was 21-12-5.
Team then goes 1-4-1.
Bunnaman enters the lineup, team goes 12-4-1, obviously he was the key player, with his 9 minutes a night at 4C!
Team then goes 6-1 with the two slow veteran centers.

What stands out is the lack of impact by either Frost or Bunnaman in the regular season, so projecting them to be anything in the post-season is a leap of faith.

As far as the RR game against TB, those were glorified exhibition games, as the real playoffs soon revealed.

The problem in the post-season hasn't been Bunnaman/Frost v Thompson/Grant.
It's been the following:

1) the puzzling bad play of Niskanen, a proven playoff performer with 4 months of rest should have excelled
2) the up and down play of Farabee, Myers and Sanheim, they've all shown flashes, but overall have been liabilities
3) TK being MIA
4) Hagg playing worse than his mediocre norm and Ghost unable to win the HC's confidence (probably due to turnovers leading to HDCA), Ghost, Hagg and Braun are the 3 worst D-men in that regard. Ghost was the worst in the regular season.
5) lack of goals - Flyers have 14 ES goals in 10 games. In the regular season they scored 2.5 ES goals per game. The only forwards to score ES goals:
Hayes (3), Raffl, Couts (2), Pitlick, Farabee, Voracek (1).

Ok, let's work on the reworked timeline then:

1) the puzzling bad play of Niskanen, a proven playoff performer with 4 months of rest should have excelled

Yet, we continue to scratch a defenseman who has proven, in his short time this playoffs, top be better than him. So again -- Its a poor management decision to play players who are subpar and dont give you the best chance to win.


2) the up and down play of Farabee, Myers and Sanheim, they've all shown flashes, but overall have been liabilities

Yet, we continue to scratch Frost, Bunnaman, and others, who could potentially take Farabee's spot(hes been the least of problems, but i digress). I dont know that riding a rookie in the playoffs and expecting him to carry your team qualifies as a good management personnel decision.
Sanheim and Myers may have been inconsistent, but they've still been our best pairing, and its not even debatable.

3) TK being MIA

No argument here. He's been beyond bad, missing empty nets, etc. I dont buy the Kevin Hayes is a puck hog excuse, either. That's been consistent since day 1. TK needs to be better. So the obvious tactic to fix this is to keep him on the same line, and move your top LW to the 4th line, right? Leave Konecny where he's at and hope he scores goals by...osmosis?

4) Hagg playing worse than his mediocre norm and Ghost unable to win the HC's confidence (probably due to turnovers leading to HDCA), Ghost, Hagg and Braun are the 3 worst D-men in that regard. Ghost was the worst in the regular season.

Hagg doesnt have a mediocre norm. He has a mediocre best game of his career, the rest is all subpar, below replacement, and he has personally led to several HDCA. So lets knock that and the Ghost thing out of the way in one fell swoop. Giroux scored goals in the regular season, does that give him a pass since he isnt scoring them now? Because it seems regular season stats matter in some regards (read: when its convenient), but not others. It's bad management to play subpar players over better ones.

5) lack of goals - Flyers have 14 ES goals in 10 games. In the regular season they scored 2.5 ES goals per game. The only forwards to score ES goals:
Hayes (3), Raffl, Couts (2), Pitlick, Farabee, Voracek (1)

No argument here. Need to be better at ES. Do you think playing dump and chase against a team with the 'heavy' defensemen who sit back is a better tactic than working through passing lanes? We scored 11 goals (all at ES, if memory serves) against much better teams by playing OUR game. Do you think its a good management decision to alter your game plan that worked beautifully against much better and faster teams, to play down to a team that is slower and cant fight an aggressive forecheck as well?

 

[deadhead]

Passing lanes? What passing lanes?

That of course is the problem - a team which depends on passing to set up scoring opportunities is in trouble when opponents focus on taking passing lanes away and force them to skate and shoot.

 

[Starat327]

Passing lanes? What passing lanes?

That of course is the problem - a team which depends on passing to set up scoring opportunities is in trouble when opponents focus on taking passing lanes away and force them to skate and shoot.

Carolina seemed to find them just fine. Several teams just did fine with it, seeing as how the Islanders were barely a playoff team at the restart. (edit: meant to say at the shutdown).

Doesn't address the concept of us moving away from the aggressive forecheck. We moved away from our game, and are now trying to play a game we dont have the personnel for - something you yourself called out as a bad idea.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

The thing I am not understanding about comments of frost and bunnaman not excelling is the fact that no one can argue grant and thompson are positive contributors to this team. So at least get young guys experience and have some type of chance they will get hot with their higher skill level.

Very puzzling line of reasoning to me.

 

[PK16]

Seeing it laid out like this should open some peoples eyes. Giroux is an elite level talent, always has been always will be. What gets lost in Giroux greatness is that he’s never been a very good athlete. His success came from his drive, determination, and compete. He’s just that skilled that he’s excelled in a league filled with amazing athletes, and he’s done it for such a long time. Are his best days behind him? Absolutely. So are Crosby’s, Ovechkin, Malkin, and so on. 32 years olds generally don’t get better and better, not in a physical sport like hockey anyways.
I know I rambled, but the Giroux hate on social media has been so disrespectful for a guy that’s given so much and his prime years to this organization. He’s not our leading scorer anymore and rightfully so. He doesn’t need to be.

This is very well stated! I would add that Giroux also excels at creativity and deceptiveness. He really out thinks his opponent and it affords him success without relying on athleticism. It buys him space and time as well as opportunities for his line mates. He continues to be one of the more entertaining players to watch, particularly for those who really understand the game.

 

[Appleyard]

This is very well stated! I would add that Giroux also excels at creativity and deceptiveness. He really out thinks his opponent and it affords him success without relying on athleticism. It buys him space and time as well as opportunities for his line mates. He continues to be one of the more entertaining players to watch, particularly for those who really understand the game.

He is also - now at wing - one of the best defensive wingers in the NHL. (he was average/marginally above when at C.)

His work covering at C is under-rated at times. Couturier is amazing... and helps Giroux... but that is a symbiotic relationship and both improve each other.

 

[Garbage Goal]

He did. He had a strong season overall and brought far more utility than Gudas would have. Falling off a cliff is a massive blow.

If people are saying he's the biggest problem on the team right now then he wasn't. If he was supposed to solidify our D and isn't then he wasn't. He fell off a cliff for the Caps too.