ECHL: Wranglers’ arena woes

Cyclones Rock

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Jun 12, 2008
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I think that the ECHL looks completely ridiculous and bush league right now by having the San Francisco Bulls fold mid season. Along with the Augusta Lynx and Fresno Falcons folding mid season a few years back, this makes the ECHL look "amateur hour"....The Bulls folding midseason took away a lot of the positive vibes that were being felt by having secured the Indy market. I think if the ECHL loses Vegas too the league is really gonna feel it.

While San Francisco may have had risks in taking on such a big market, the team invested $2 million in the facility. They appeared to well capitalized. Stuff happens.

Fresno and Augusta were around for quite a while. They just happened to run out of funds during the course of the same season and the rest of the owners decided not to fund them. While it's not ideal to lose teams mid season, it happens in minor league sports. The number of teams which have folded mid season in the ECHL during its history is not substantial.

The World Hockey Association had far more teams fold in midseason (Denver Spurs/Ottawa Civics, Michigan Stags, Indianapolis Racers, Minnesota Fighting Saints-two versions of them, I believe-and others) in much less time. The American Basketball Association had teams fold or move mid season as well. Both of these leagues had many future Hall of Famers in their sports playing at the time when teams were folding. These leagues were major league in many respects.

The ECHL has faced and will face many challenges in the future. The league is in its 25th season of operation. It is anything but a fly-by-night or unstable operation. It is highly stable as far as low minor leagues go.
 

paul-laus

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Jun 20, 2007
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Very sorry to hear that the Plaza rink fell through.

I hope something is worked out for next season. If not, then for the 2015-16 season. Should the Wranglers take a year hiatus, it would be for a legitimate reason. The team had no intention of halting operations. They were impacted by a very odd situation. Having one's venue taken away at the last minute is not something one generally worries about.

The Cincinnati Cyclones underwent a two year suspension of operations from 2004-05 through 2005-6. The franchise returned in 2006-07 and has won 2 Kelly Cups and has seen its attendance increase every year since the return until this past season. So, suspended teams can not only return, but thrive.

If suspension happens in LV, I would think that the arena issues would be resolved in a year's time. With Thomas & Mack, Southpoint and possible other venues (which I'm not aware of), I have optimism that hockey is not a dead issue in Sin City.

Good luck to all of you Wranger fans. May the Wranglers take the ice again and Boyd Gaming and the Orleans Casino get what they deserve.

The Cincinatti Cyclones drew 1602 fans for a second round playoff game tonight. I'm sorry my friend but that's downright pathetic. Those are Federal Hockey League numbers. And just for a point of reference, Cincinatti is the exception not the rule. As I said, the vast vast majority parlay a one-two year hiatus into an indefinite one. Ft. Worth Brahamas of the CHL are another franchise that came back as well but most don't. Columbia took a little hiatus 6 years ago......
 

Cyclones Rock

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Jun 12, 2008
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The Cincinatti Cyclones drew 1602 fans for a second round playoff game tonight. I'm sorry my friend but that's downright pathetic. Those are Federal Hockey League numbers. And just for a point of reference, Cincinatti is the exception not the rule. As I said, the vast vast majority parlay a one-two year hiatus into an indefinite one. Ft. Worth Brahamas of the CHL are another franchise that came back as well but most don't. Columbia took a little hiatus 6 years ago......

Cyclones playoff attendance has been dreadful so far. Didn't help that the Reds were playing next door and it was a Tuesday. As bad as 1600 is, it's only round 2. Federal League teams-Danbury excepted-don't even get 600 to their playoff games. The AHL Norfolk Admirals drew an announced 1736 tonight. Dollars to donuts that more were actually in the seats in Cincinnati. My guess is that you don't really understand or know much about minor league hockey attendance norms.

Unlike most minor league teams, the Cyclones announce honest numbers....none of the "season tickets that didn't show/tickets distributed fraudulent numbers that so many teams do.

The Cyclones averaged an honest 4200 this year, down from 4400 last year. It's enough to pay the bills.

Some teams come back from hiatuses; others don't. I would think that Las Vegas-if they must go under suspension- would come back given the nature of their situation.
 
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paul-laus

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Jun 20, 2007
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Cyclones playoff attendance has been dreadful so far. Didn't help that the Reds were playing next door and it was a Tuesday. As bad as 1600 is, it's only round 2. Federal League teams-Danbury excepted-don't even get 600 to their playoff games. The AHL Norfolk Admirals drew an announced 1736 tonight. Dollars to donuts that more were actually in the seats in Cincinnati. My guess is that you don't really understand or know much about minor league hockey attendance norms.
Unlike most minor league teams, the Cyclones announce honest numbers....none of the "season tickets that didn't show/tickets distributed fraudulent numbers that so many teams do.

The Cyclones averaged an honest 4200 this year, down from 4400 last year. It's enough to pay the bills.

Some teams come back from hiatuses; others don't. I would think that Las Vegas-if they must go under suspension- would come back given the nature of their situation.

I think that you're absolutely right. I need to take a course in comprehension of minor league hockey attendance numbers so that I can voice my opinions in the same forums as you. Get over yourself. You really think that I just started following minor league hockey last night? I'm perfectly capable to grasp concepts such as paid attendance vs. actual butts in seats just as I am capable to realize that in most American cities hockey will always take a back seat to other sports and minor league hockey even more so. It seems to me that you're prepared to come up with every excuse in the book to give the ECHL more credence at this point. The fact remains, and you can argue this until you're blue in the face, for a clinching second round playoff game 1,602 fans is abysmal, week night or not. You can attempt to downplay its significance as well by pointing to AAA Norfolk and their equally bad attendance numbers. That's sad in its own right and maybe even more so considering they are a couple seasons removed from a Calder Cup.

The fact remains, and I've stated this earlier on these boards, the ECHL and CHL took a foolish chance when the NHL strike occurred a year and a half go. They went into markets Denver (CHL Cuthroats) and Bay Area (ECHL Bulls) and hoped to fill the gap left for starving Sharks and Avalanche fans. Anybody with common sense could have foreseen that when the strike ended (which it did four months later) people would go back to the superior product and the attendance numbers would dwindle for AA hockey. This happened quickly and the Bulls were forced to pull the plug mid season (which appears to be happening often in the E now) and the ECHL was forced to alter scheduling mid season again. You can take the stance that- "hey it was worth a shot" or "sometimes you win some and sometimes you don't". My stance is the higher ups with the ECHL look foolish for exercising no forethought to see this coming down the pike. They pride themselves on not being too hasty and going into markets without doing their homework first and making sure that markets are in it for the long haul with stable ownership etc. Well, this was ridiculous and it makes the league look bad...
 

Steelhead16

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Jan 29, 2005
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I think that you're absolutely right. I need to take a course in comprehension of minor league hockey attendance numbers so that I can voice my opinions in the same forums as you. Get over yourself. You really think that I just started following minor league hockey last night? I'm perfectly capable to grasp concepts such as paid attendance vs. actual butts in seats just as I am capable to realize that in most American cities hockey will always take a back seat to other sports and minor league hockey even more so. It seems to me that you're prepared to come up with every excuse in the book to give the ECHL more credence at this point. The fact remains, and you can argue this until you're blue in the face, for a clinching second round playoff game 1,602 fans is abysmal, week night or not. You can attempt to downplay its significance as well by pointing to AAA Norfolk and their equally bad attendance numbers. That's sad in its own right and maybe even more so considering they are a couple seasons removed from a Calder Cup.

The fact remains, and I've stated this earlier on these boards, the ECHL and CHL took a foolish chance when the NHL strike occurred a year and a half go. They went into markets Denver (CHL Cuthroats) and Bay Area (ECHL Bulls) and hoped to fill the gap left for starving Sharks and Avalanche fans. Anybody with common sense could have foreseen that when the strike ended (which it did four months later) people would go back to the superior product and the attendance numbers would dwindle for AA hockey. This happened quickly and the Bulls were forced to pull the plug mid season (which appears to be happening often in the E now) and the ECHL was forced to alter scheduling mid season again. You can take the stance that- "hey it was worth a shot" or "sometimes you win some and sometimes you don't". My stance is the higher ups with the ECHL look foolish for exercising no forethought to see this coming down the pike. They pride themselves on not being too hasty and going into markets without doing their homework first and making sure that markets are in it for the long haul with stable ownership etc. Well, this was ridiculous and it makes the league look bad...

I'm not so sure foolish is the correct term for the decision. I agree that San Francisco was a reach. I lived in the Bay Area for over 30 years and I go back to the Shamrocks playing in the Pacific Coast League in the Cow Palace. I went to Sharks and Spiders games there as well as the Seals in Oakland. I live in a city now with an ECHL team that has won the Kelly Cup twice in the recent past and can't fill half their building anymore and it pisses me off so much that I don't go anymore unless I have free tickets. So I get your frustration.
That being said, I also get that teams at this level exist for different reasons and that it's not only a lower level of talent on the ice, but also a lower level off the ice as well. Idaho used to fill its building to the rafters (a little over 5,000) for all weekend games at least and the playoffs there were true "white outs" and SRO crowds. It was a new product, a new sport and the city was growing tremendously at the time as well. Once the newness wore off there was nobody to bring people in the door. The "marketing" staff was a few college interns making squat sitting around trying to drum up ideas. They had no experience to draw from for ideas that had worked in other places because there were no other places. There was no budget for marketing because there was really no interest in making money. The team is owned by a company that owns and runs hotels. If the team loses money then its a tax write off. If it breaks even, then no harm no foul and making a little money is actually a worse deal for them. They can't make enough money for it to be a financially viable investment. It keeps a tenant in the arena which they own which is in a hotel they own.
Nobody owns an ECHL team to get rich. They are tax write offs and toys and tools to increase downtown traffic to businesses......whatever else. So to expect an ECHL franchise to flourish within a major market with major sports franchises is a reach. The teams that do well do well for different reasons too. Some are run by people with a passion for hockey and forsake the cost because they love it. Some are the only game in town. Whatever the reason one fails and one survives or flourishes there is no blueprint like there is in say the NFL. No owners groups or tv contracts to split up to help the smaller markets. They are on their own and therefore you have 25+/- different situations to try and mold into a league.
I get your frustration and I'm sure I have many of the same ones as well but at the end of the day, 25 of anything will have strong ones and weak ones and most in the middle somewhere. I love minor league sports but they are a struggle and will always be a struggle. Football has tried a few different ventures to have a minor league but have always failed, even when the NFL was involved. The CBA was all but dead until the NBA came in to help out but the D League certainly isn't flourishing by any means. Minor league baseball survives because of help from their MLB clubs and because of the time of year they play. It's cheap and people can take the family out and enjoy the outdoors and more people enjoy and understand baseball.
Hockey is a sport that people won't get into on tv. It has to be experienced live but that requires getting them in the door and educating them on what they are watching. That is and always be the problem faced by minor league hockey. Not foolish, just reality.
 
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Clinton Comets EHL

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Feb 18, 2014
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I'm not so sure foolish is the correct term for the decision. I agree that San Francisco was a reach. I lived in the Bay Area for over 30 years and I go back to the Shamrocks playing in the Pacific Coast League in the Cow Palace. I went to Sharks and Spiders games there as well as the Seals in Oakland. I live in a city now with an ECHL team that has won the Kelly Cup twice in the recent past and can't fill half their building anymore and it pisses me off so much that I don't go anymore unless I have free tickets. So I get your frustration.
That being said, I also get that teams at this level exist for different reasons and that it's not only a lower level of talent on the ice, but also a lower level off the ice as well. Idaho used to fill its building to the rafters (a little over 5,000) for all weekend games at least and the playoffs there were true "white outs" and SRO crowds. It was a new product, a new sport and the city was growing tremendously at the time as well. Once the newness wore off there was nobody to bring people in the door. The "marketing" staff was a few college interns making squat sitting around trying to drum up ideas. They had no experience to draw from for ideas that had worked in other places because there were no other places. There was no budget for marketing because there was really no interest in making money. The team is owned by a company that owns and runs hotels. If the team loses money then its a tax write off. If it breaks even, then no harm no foul and making a little money is actually a worse deal for them. They can't make enough money for it to be a financially viable investment. It keeps a tenant in the arena which they own which is in a hotel they own.
Nobody owns an ECHL team to get rich. They are tax write offs and toys and tools to increase downtown traffic to businesses......whatever else. So to expect an ECHL franchise to flourish within a major market with major sports franchises is a reach. The teams that do well do well for different reasons too. Some are run by people with a passion for hockey and forsake the cost because they love it. Some are the only game in town. Whatever the reason one fails and one survives or flourishes there is no blueprint like there is in say the NFL. No owners groups or tv contracts to split up to help the smaller markets. They are on their own and therefore you have 25+/- different situations to try and mold into a league.
I get your frustration and I'm sure I have many of the same ones as well but at the end of the day, 25 of anything will have strong ones and weak ones and most in the middle somewhere. I love minor league sports but they are a struggle and will always be a struggle. Football has tried a few different ventures to have a minor league but have always failed, even when the NFL was involved. The CBA was all but dead until the NBA came in to help out but the D League certainly isn't flourishing by any means. Minor league baseball survives because of help from their MLB clubs and because of the time of year they play. It's cheap and people can take the family out and enjoy the outdoors and more people enjoy and understand baseball.
Hockey is a sport that people won't get into on tv. It has to be experienced live but that that requires getting them in the door and educating them on what they are watching. That is and always be the problem faced by minor league hockey. Not foolish, just reality.

Wish we had more intelligent posters like this. Well thought out and certainly well said.
 

JB51Hockey

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Nov 19, 2012
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Sucks. Have to think the ECHL will add the 2 or 3 CHL teams now so they don't field an embarrassing 7 team West Conference.
 

GindyDraws

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Either that or push really hard to put a team in Fresno as a stopgap.

But I'm hoping that the CHL situation can help the ECHL. Still, I hope the Wranglers work out something... most teams don't come back...
 

JB51Hockey

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Still, I hope the Wranglers work out something... most teams don't come back...

I think Wranglers are the lone exception. An NHL team won't be in Vegas ever and even the thought of an AHL team in Vegas isn't much more than a thought.
 

Ginormousthumbs

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I'll be very surprised if the Wranglers return. I know it happened it Toledo, but this city is different. A year and a half away could be the kiss of death for this organization. I think there were 3 or 400 people who showed up for their last playoff game.
And I guess that I'm one of the few people that think that Vegas will get an NHL team.
 

Maddog

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Dec 17, 2008
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I'll be very surprised if the Wranglers return. I know it happened it Toledo, but this city is different. A year and a half away could be the kiss of death for this organization. I think there were 3 or 400 people who showed up for their last playoff game.
And I guess that I'm one of the few people that think that Vegas will get an NHL team.

Agree. Toledo had a new home in place, or being built, when they went dark. This is different. Wranglers, as of now, don't have a arena plan being published.
 

paul-laus

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Jun 20, 2007
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I'll be very surprised if the Wranglers return. I know it happened it Toledo, but this city is different. A year and a half away could be the kiss of death for this organization. I think there were 3 or 400 people who showed up for their last playoff game.
And I guess that I'm one of the few people that think that Vegas will get an NHL team.


I can't believe that I'm gonna say this but I agree with you. The NHL needs two western based teams to even out the conferences and I really believe that they're going to use Quebec City as a relocation market at some point rather than an expansion target. Kansas City has the vacant Sprint Centre but no legitimate ownership possibilities. The consensus is starting to become that Bettman truly wants the NHL to be the first major league sports league to enter into the Vegas market. I'm not saying within the next couple of years or anything, but when they expand to Seattle, I can picture Vegas as well.

I wish Portland's NBA owner was more willing to consider splitting the Rose Garden with an NHL tenant but he likes having the market to himself (MLS aside).........WHL Winterhawks numbers were fabulous this past season and hockey appears to be growing in popularity there.....
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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Mar 4, 2002
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[/U][/I][/B]

I can't believe that I'm gonna say this but I agree with you. The NHL needs two western based teams to even out the conferences and I really believe that they're going to use Quebec City as a relocation market at some point rather than an expansion target. Kansas City has the vacant Sprint Centre but no legitimate ownership possibilities. The consensus is starting to become that Bettman truly wants the NHL to be the first major league sports league to enter into the Vegas market. I'm not saying within the next couple of years or anything, but when they expand to Seattle, I can picture Vegas as well.

I wish Portland's NBA owner was more willing to consider splitting the Rose Garden with an NHL tenant but he likes having the market to himself (MLS aside).........WHL Winterhawks numbers were fabulous this past season and hockey appears to be growing in popularity there.....


Blazers play in the MODA Center, Paul.
 

Maddog

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Dec 17, 2008
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[/U][/I][/B]

I can't believe that I'm gonna say this but I agree with you. The NHL needs two western based teams to even out the conferences and I really believe that they're going to use Quebec City as a relocation market at some point rather than an expansion target. Kansas City has the vacant Sprint Centre but no legitimate ownership possibilities. The consensus is starting to become that Bettman truly wants the NHL to be the first major league sports league to enter into the Vegas market. I'm not saying within the next couple of years or anything, but when they expand to Seattle, I can picture Vegas as well.

I wish Portland's NBA owner was more willing to consider splitting the Rose Garden with an NHL tenant but he likes having the market to himself (MLS aside).........WHL Winterhawks numbers were fabulous this past season and hockey appears to be growing in popularity there.....


You forgot Seattle. A new ownership group has emerged with Victor Coleman and Johnny Glasser taking the lead as the front runner. NHL's Gary Bettman, his deputy Bill Daly, and the new ownership group met with Seattle's mayor and King County executive to discuss changing the MOU agreement for the new arena on May 6. The new ownership group has been in touch with Hansen, the primary individual that is heading the new arena, since October of last year. It still appears that NHL wants Seattle. Now the question is does Seattle want the NHL.
 

paul-laus

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Jun 20, 2007
474
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Blazers play in the MODA Center, Paul.

In addition to Memorial Coliseum Hutch. I'm aware that the Winterhawks don't play at the Rose Garden. Perhaps my previous post was a little scattered. My point though was that the attendance of many Winterhawk playoff games was 10,000+. There has been talk in the past of the NHL in Portland and they had an NHL franchise in the early 1900's. My understanding is that the owner of the Blazers owns the Rose Garden and wouldn't even consider having a second tenant at the arena because he wants zero competition for the Blazers in the Portland market. My own hope would be that I'd love to see the NHL (if they expand and if there was quality ownership in place) go into Seattle and Portland as there would be fantastic cross border rivalries between the Canucks and teams in those two cities which would include fans travelling relatively short distances. Also both were original NHL cities in the early days and junior hockey markets with storied histories in the WHL....
 

paul-laus

Registered User
Jun 20, 2007
474
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You forgot Seattle. A new ownership group has emerged with Victor Coleman and Johnny Glasser taking the lead as the front runner. NHL's Gary Bettman, his deputy Bill Daly, and the new ownership group met with Seattle's mayor and King County executive to discuss changing the MOU agreement for the new arena on May 6. The new ownership group has been in touch with Hansen, the primary individual that is heading the new arena, since October of last year. It still appears that NHL wants Seattle. Now the question is does Seattle want the NHL.

For sure. I agree with you. The NHL desperately want Seattle and it likely will end up happening.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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Mar 4, 2002
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You forgot Seattle. A new ownership group has emerged with Victor Coleman and Johnny Glasser taking the lead as the front runner. NHL's Gary Bettman, his deputy Bill Daly, and the new ownership group met with Seattle's mayor and King County executive to discuss changing the MOU agreement for the new arena on May 6. The new ownership group has been in touch with Hansen, the primary individual that is heading the new arena, since October of last year. It still appears that NHL wants Seattle. Now the question is does Seattle want the NHL.

Seattle's unlikely, maddog, see the Business thread on here, expansion isn't coming and the MOU will likely have to be renewed before Seattle gets a franchise, they have no history to speak of in the modern era. it's more political in Seattle and has been since Sonicsgate.
 

Maddog

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Dec 17, 2008
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Seattle's unlikely, maddog, see the Business thread on here, expansion isn't coming and the MOU will likely have to be renewed before Seattle gets a franchise, they have no history to speak of in the modern era. it's more political in Seattle and has been since Sonicsgate.

Here is wishful thinking. Like we all believe Bettman saying expansion is unlikely. I don't believe Bettman would be visiting the city to discuss modifying the MOU unless he had other plans. Why would he ask for the MOU for the planned arena to be changed to be NHL unless he had other plans? Expansion may not happen this year or next but it will happen and Seattle, if they can get their crap together, is the front runner. As for history, there is a long line of teams that had no recent, or history, with NHL. Recent history with NHL means failure. Who wants to revisit failure?
 
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Maddog

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Dec 17, 2008
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Would you like to know how many Portlanders want to go skates up on that name, Hutch?

oh so many comments I could make! I kid...I kid Winterhawks fans traveling to Seattle has always treated my family with respect. Naturally, they were kicking our butts at the time but it was with respect.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

Registered User
Mar 4, 2002
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Auburn, Maine
Here is wishful thinking. Like we all believe Bettman saying expansion is unlikely. I don't believe Bettman would be visiting the city to discuss modifying the MOU unless he had other plans. Why would he ask for the MOU for the planned arena to be changed to be NHL unless he had other plans? Expansion may not happen this year or next but it will happen and Seattle, if they can get their crap together, is the front runner. As for history, there is a long line of teams that had no recent, or history, with NHL. Recent history with NHL means failure. Who wants to revisit failure?

again, what does this have to do w/ Las Vegas?????????:shakehead
 

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