TSN Radio Dreger: Jonathan Bernier could play himself onto 2014 Olympic team.

[New Liskeard]

Reimer is a blocker goalie. He is also damaged goods. His rebound control is not there. His puck handling is not there. His glove hand is not there. He looks big in net, and covers the angle. I am convinced that he doesn't see the puck well. It goes off him and he freezes for a second to get the whistle. We need a better goalie. I love his personality, but we need a better goalie.

Yet here Reimer posted one of the top sv pct of goalies last year and excellent stats. 2.46 gaa and a .924 sv %. How is it a goalie with that many holes, puts up numbers like that? He also put up great numbers his first season as well. This is like saying even though Andrechuk was a 50 goal scorer, he was a bad skater.

 

[New Liskeard]

People are giving Bernier credit for proving even less then Reimer. One of our illustrious radio stations today said he was a top 15 goalie in the NHL right now.

Excellent post, couldnt have said it better myself.

 

[achtungbaby]

C'mon Dreger. Almost any Canadian playing in the NHL this year could "play" himself onto the Olympic team. Here's another bold statement for you, "Jonathan Quick could win the Vezina this year."

 

[Duke Silver]

yes. screamed for it, actually. I wanted Reimer/Gus battling it out for the big club. I had no time for Toskala at that point at all.

Though, admittedly, I was much higher on Gus then than I should have been.

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing anyone screamed for Reimer to be on the 2009-10 Leafs when he had 3 games of AHL experience to his name.

Say whatever you want about how the Leafs should have had him playing for the Marlies in 2008-09 instead of the ECHL. The mere fact that he had such little experience at the AHL level (rightly or wrongly) is the exact reason why he shouldn't have been chosen to goaltend in the NHL.

Look at almost any goaltender in this league. The vast majority of them spent a good amount of time in either a European professional league or the AHL prior to being put in the NHL full-time.

Henrik Lundqvist: 4 years in the SEL
Niklas Backstrom: 5 years in the SM-Liiga
Tuukka Rask: 100 games in the AHL
Corey Schneider: 140 games in the AHL
Corey Crawford: 250 games in the AHL
Antti Niemi: 3 years in SM-Liiga + 38 games in AHL
Jimmy Howard: 190 games in the AHL
Devan Dubnyk: 160 games in the AHL
Braden Holtby: 100 games in the AHL
Tomas Vokoun: 80 games in the AHL
Kari Lehtonen: 2 years in SM-Liiga + 100 games in the AHL
Marc Andre Fleury: 54 games in the AHL
Ryan Miller: 170 games in the AHL
Jonas Hiller: 3 years in Swiss National League A
Mike Smith: 125 games in the AHL
Pekka Rinne: 145 games in the AHL
Evgeni Nabokov: 3 years in Russia + 75 games in the AHL
J.S. Giguere: 110 games in the AHL
Cam Ward: 50 games in the AHL
Brian Elliott: 80 games in the AHL
Ondrej Pavelec: 90 games in the AHL
Ilya Bryzgalov: 200 games in the AHL
Jaroslav Halak: 70 games in the AHL
Jose Theodore: 100 gams in the AHL
Miikka Kiprusoff: 2 years in SEL, 1 year in SM-Liiga, 85 games in the AHL

The only comparables I can think of, who had such little amount of professional experience prior to becoming NHL regulars, are:

Steve Mason: 3 games in the AHL
Martin Brodeur: 32 games in the AHL
Roberto Luongo: Started season in AHL, was brought up for 24 games by the Isles, sent back to the AHL. Played 26 games in AHL that season.
Carey Price: 0 games in AHL prior to becoming a regular.
Jonathan Quick: 32 games in the AHL

That's it!

His lack of professional experience was a direct result of the team neglecting him as a prospect.

Whether he was neglected or not, he still didn't have the professional resume to justify an NHL call-up.

Again, he should have been playing in the AHL full time in 2008-09. It's criminal that a prospect as good as him - a top-100 pick that the coaches voted best goalie in his conference in junior - was shunted to the ECHL. that never happens. The fact that it was done just to try and salvage the craptastic Pogge is embarassing.

and I could care less about experience anyways. See: Price, Ward, etc.

You still didn't answer what you would have done in the 2009-10 season. Would you have traded Toskala to free up space for the goaltender with 3 games of AHL experience? Would you have demoted the more-seasoned Gustavsson to the Marlies for the goaltender with 3 games of AHL experience?

It's couldn't care less. And I don't care if you couldn't care less about experience. I'm incredulous you think putting Reimer in the NHL in 2008-09 to battle it out with Gustavsson, on the strength of a 3 game AHL career, would have been a good idea.

buncha hogwash here, to be honest.

Reimer is a goalie that has been one of the best at every level he's ever played. Named best goalie in his conference in junior. MVP of the ECHL in his first pro year, then .920+ sv% in the AHL whenever he played...AND .920+sv% in the NHL whenever he's been healthy.

The fact that the Leafs:

1) Shunted Reimer to the ECHL in his first pro year to give Pogge more starts after two awful ahl seasons;
2) made him backup Joey MacDonald in his second pro year for no reason at all;
3) went out and traded for a $6m 35 yr old backup goalie in his third pro season to keep him stuck in the AHL
4) hesitated to call him up as the 3rd stringer from 09-10 on;
5) didn't give him every chance in the world to regain his form in the 11-2 season at Gus's expense;

Shows an embarassing lack of talent evaluation from the Leafs' FO.

Hogwash? Everything said was the truth.

Did Reimer not have 11 games of experience when Giguere was acquired? Did I miscount?
Did Reimer not come in midway through the 2010-11 season?
Did Reimer not start the 2010-11 season with 29 games of AHL experience and 0 games of NHL experience? Am I that bad at counting?

It wasn't about "fully knowing". It was about having the gonads and ability to admit just how awful Gus and Toskala were, and it was about having the ability to evaluate just how good Reimer was.

The ability to evaluate just how good Reimer was.... using his 3-game AHL resume.

You're putting wayyyyy too much stock into accomplishments at the ECHL level, I think.

you're the one going on about the value of experience.

And you're the one saying experience doesn't matter, when it's quite clear it does for the goaltending position!

 

[zeke]

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing anyone screamed for Reimer to be on the 2009-10 Leafs when he had 3 games of AHL experience to his name.

don't care if you believe it.

Say whatever you want about how the Leafs should have had him playing for the Marlies in 2008-09 instead of the ECHL. The mere fact that he had such little experience at the AHL level (rightly or wrongly) is the exact reason why he shouldn't have been chosen to goaltend in the NHL.

Look at almost any goaltender in this league. The vast majority of them spent a good amount of time in either a European professional league or the AHL prior to being put in the NHL full-time.

Henrik Lundqvist: 4 years in the SEL
Niklas Backstrom: 5 years in the SM-Liiga
Tuukka Rask: 100 games in the AHL
Corey Schneider: 140 games in the AHL
Corey Crawford: 250 games in the AHL
Antti Niemi: 3 years in SM-Liiga + 38 games in AHL
Jimmy Howard: 190 games in the AHL
Devan Dubnyk: 160 games in the AHL
Braden Holtby: 100 games in the AHL
Tomas Vokoun: 80 games in the AHL
Kari Lehtonen: 2 years in SM-Liiga + 100 games in the AHL
Marc Andre Fleury: 54 games in the AHL
Ryan Miller: 170 games in the AHL
Jonas Hiller: 3 years in Swiss National League A
Mike Smith: 125 games in the AHL
Pekka Rinne: 145 games in the AHL
Evgeni Nabokov: 3 years in Russia + 75 games in the AHL
J.S. Giguere: 110 games in the AHL
Cam Ward: 50 games in the AHL
Brian Elliott: 80 games in the AHL
Ondrej Pavelec: 90 games in the AHL
Ilya Bryzgalov: 200 games in the AHL
Jaroslav Halak: 70 games in the AHL
Jose Theodore: 100 gams in the AHL
Miikka Kiprusoff: 2 years in SEL, 1 year in SM-Liiga, 85 games in the AHL

The only comparables I can think of, who had such little amount of professional experience prior to becoming NHL regulars, are:

Steve Mason: 3 games in the AHL
Martin Brodeur: 32 games in the AHL
Roberto Luongo: Started season in AHL, was brought up for 24 games by the Isles, sent back to the AHL. Played 26 games in AHL that season.
Carey Price: 0 games in AHL prior to becoming a regular.
Jonathan Quick: 32 games in the AHL

That's it!

"That's it" = more teams should be doing it.

and if you're counting on all sorts of crappy euro leagues, then the ECHL should be included as well.

and, repeat, it was the Leafs own fault he didn't have more AHL experience already.

Whether he was neglected or not, he still didn't have the professional resume to justify an NHL call-up.

Ridiculous - many goalies have received their first callups with minimal pro experience.

You still didn't answer what you would have done in the 2009-10 season. Would you have traded Toskala to free up space for the goaltender with 3 games of AHL experience? Would you have demoted the more-seasoned Gustavsson to the Marlies for the goaltender with 3 games of AHL experience?

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be.

But I'll repeat it again for you - even ignoring that Reimer should have been starting in the AHL in 08-09, he should most definitely have been starting in the AHL in 09-10, and ready to be the first callup when needed. Instead, they played Reimer behind Joey Fricken MacDonald and his .893 sv%, and then called up Joey when they needed a 3rd stringer.

It's couldn't care less. And I don't care if you couldn't care less about experience. I'm incredulous you think putting Reimer in the NHL in 2008-09 to battle it out with Gustavsson, on the strength of a 3 game AHL career, would have been a good idea.

Hogwash? Everything said was the truth.

Did Reimer not have 11 games of experience when Giguere was acquired? Did I miscount?
Did Reimer not come in midway through the 2010-11 season?
Did Reimer not start the 2010-11 season with 29 games of AHL experience and 0 games of NHL experience? Am I that bad at counting?

Hogwash is you repeating the BS about experience over and over and over again. Many goalies have received call ups with minimal experience - especially those with no NHL goaltending to speak of.

The ability to evaluate just how good Reimer was.... using his 3-game AHL resume.

You're putting wayyyyy too much stock into accomplishments at the ECHL level, I think.

Reimer has been elite at every level he's played at. The Leafs failed to evaluate him properly at every step of the way, and held him back every step of the way - not to his detriment, but only to the detriment of the team. If they had treated Reimer like he deserved to be treated, they're likely in the playoffs in the 10-11 season.

And you're the one saying experience doesn't matter, when it's quite clear it does for the goaltending position!

it most certainly doesn't.

inexperienced goalies have a much better track record winning cups than experienced goalies do.

 

[Frankie]

Reimer has been elite at every level he's played at. The Leafs failed to evaluate him properly at every step of the way, and held him back every step of the way - not to his detriment, but only to the detriment of the team. If they had treated Reimer like he deserved to be treated, they're likely in the playoffs in the 10-11 season.

any theories as to why they would treat him so poorly? why would they want him to fail?

it could be as simple as stupidity. is that what you think it is?

 

[Frankie]

Totally agree. We should all just stop posting anything that's not in the full support of Dave Nonis.

and every other nhl professional. we shouldn't criticize or question any decision made my any team.

 

[Duke Silver]

"That's it" = more teams should be doing it.

and if you're counting on all sorts of crappy euro leagues, then the ECHL should be included as well.

and, repeat, it was the Leafs own fault he didn't have more AHL experience already.

More teams should be throwing inexperienced goaltenders to the wolves with minimal AHL experience?

What you're referring to is the exception and not the rule.

And professional European leagues = ECHL? That's pretty much all I have to hear.

Ridiculous - many goalies have received their first callups with minimal pro experience.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be.

But I'll repeat it again for you - even ignoring that Reimer should have been starting in the AHL in 08-09, he should most definitely have been starting in the AHL in 09-10, and ready to be the first callup when needed. Instead, they played Reimer behind Joey Fricken MacDonald and his .893 sv%, and then called up Joey when they needed a 3rd stringer.

We're both talking full-time roles here. After all, you're the one suggesting we should have had Reimer (aged 20 and with 3 games AHL experience) and Gustavsson battling it out for the starting role for the Leafs in 2009-10.

The Leafs didn't know what they had in Reimer at the time, so much that they let him battle it out with Adam Munro and Andrew Engelage for a backup role with the Marlies in 2009-10. He was still a major question mark at the professional level.

It is so, so easy to look back four years and say what we should and should not have done. It's clear that was a mistake. But at the time, with the knowledge and impressions they had at the time, the Leafs made the decision to bring in an established, experienced back-up. I'm explaining to you why the decisions were made at the time.

Hogwash is you repeating the BS about experience over and over and over again. Many goalies have received call ups with minimal experience - especially those with no NHL goaltending to speak of.

You can dismiss it all you want, but I showed that it is the rule, not the exception, that goaltenders spend a good amount of time in European professional leagues or the AHL before being ready for full-time NHL roles.

Reimer has been elite at every level he's played at. The Leafs failed to evaluate him properly at every step of the way, and held him back every step of the way - not to his detriment, but only to the detriment of the team. If they had treated Reimer like he deserved to be treated, they're likely in the playoffs in the 10-11 season.

He wasn't elite in the AHL when they were making the roster decisions at the beginning of 2009-10 (Toskala and Gustavsson), which is what started this entire debate.

But nah, James, screw proving yourself in the development professional league, you have a Kelly Cup MVP to your credit, so here's your full-time NHL role.

it most certainly doesn't.

inexperienced goalies have a much better track record winning cups than experienced goalies do

Please elaborate with convincing data. I'm tired of doing your legwork.

 

[Christ]

Reimer already outplayed most of those guys.

Agreed...after what he has done in TO, I cannot believe how little respect Reimer gets. While Bernier does have talent, he still has to win the starter's position from Reimer before he does anything else. If Reimer plays like he did in his first season and last year, Bernier will have his work cut out for him...honestly it could be Reimer's name mentioned as the potential third starter for Canada.

 

[Donato]

I think Bernier has all the right tools and skill to be an amazing goalie, wether he lives up to that is yet to be seen.

But to consider him in team Canada talks, before even mentioning Reimer is stupid. Reimer has proved a lot more against NHL players than Bernier has.

Also remember when Reimer played in the world championships and won 2 or 3 games, and was pulled and replaced by none other than Bernier who lost the next two games

 

[7even]

Also remember when Reimer played in the world championships and won 2 or 3 games, and was pulled and replaced by none other than Bernier who lost the next two games

Cosmic foreshadowing?

 

[Duke Silver]

Also remember when Reimer played in the world championships and won 2 or 3 games, and was pulled and replaced by none other than Bernier who lost the next two games

Not true...

Reimer played the first 4 games of the qualification round vs. Belarus (4-1W), France (9-1W), Switzerland (4-3 OTW) & U.S.A (4-3 SOW)

Bernier played the last 2 games of the qualification round vs. Norway (3-2W) & Sweden (3-2W), then in the quarter-finals vs. Russia (2-1L)

See: http://www.hockeycanada.ca/en-ca/Team-Canada/Men/World-Championship/2011/Schedule-Results

 

[Pyrophorus]

I'm happy with the strengthened G-corps.

I really hope Team Canada goes with the hot hand, rather than the cold "elite".

I don't expect to see Price on the Black Sea this upcoming year.

No one can say, what the situation will be like between JR and JB,
come the games. JR should get the edge to at least start this season.

 

[sangreale]

My favourite Anti Leafs comments

"Reimer only looks good because of the defense"

Followed by

"Torontos defense only looks good because of Reimer"

And in baseball good pitching will always stop good hitting and visa versa.

 

[xxxx]

Well, everything is possible.

If he's good enough, why not ?


But he's better be really fantastic, because now I would definitely take Smith / Ward / Holtby and Elliott over him.


EDIT: Bernier is kinda underrated. He could be a very solid #1 guy...and I've always believed he has a great potential. Will see...

 

[Donato]

Not true...

Reimer played the first 4 games of the qualification round vs. Belarus (4-1W), France (9-1W), Switzerland (4-3 OTW) & U.S.A (4-3 SOW)

Bernier played the last 2 games of the qualification round vs. Norway (3-2W) & Sweden (3-2W), then in the quarter-finals vs. Russia (2-1L)

See: http://www.hockeycanada.ca/en-ca/Team-Canada/Men/World-Championship/2011/Schedule-Results

Yeah, bottom line is.. Reimer lost his job when he was playing just fine. I remember being pissed off the last game, because Canada was pretty stacked too

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

Agreed...after what he has done in TO, I cannot believe how little respect Reimer gets.

I like Reimer and all and was fine with him as the starter heading into next season (not that the Bernier trade wasn't a good move), but I don't know. After all he's done in Toronto? What'd he really do, though? Put up good stats twice over the course of three years, while never playing more than 40 games in either the NHL or AHL? So now everyone should praise him as our bona fide #1 moving forward?

I hope he gets his fair shot this year to be that guy though, 'cause it seems like management might have more faith in Bernier. Even if Bernier plays well, it'd kinda suck to see Reimer get a raw deal and then take off to Philly or Tampa Bay or something next summer and light it up (or not....be....lit up? whatever)

 

[Penalty Kill Icing*]

Just heard this on NBCSN from Pierre McGuire.

It was his personal opinion, but he said Bernier and Ward's names need to be added to the mix; and that Bernier wasn't being given enough credit south of the border.

The names they had on the graphic were: Crawford, Price, Luongo, Smith, and Holtby.

 

[Ari91]

The goalie position is the most unstable position Team Canada has right now. I would expect that Team Canada would be open to Bernier as I would that they would be open to Reimer or ANY Canadian goalie that has some experience and is playing well leading up to selection of the Olympic roster.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Just heard this on NBCSN from Pierre McGuire.

It was his personal opinion, but he said Bernier and Ward's names need to be added to the mix; and that Bernier wasn't being given enough credit south of the border.

The names they had on the graphic were: Crawford, Price, Luongo, Smith, and Holtby.

The goalie position is the most unstable position Team Canada has right now. I would expect that Team Canada would be open to Bernier as I would that they would be open to Reimer or ANY Canadian goalie that has some experience and is playing well leading up to selection of the Olympic roster.

If I'm team canada brass I'm CRYING right now, and not tears of joy, that's for sure

 

[Ari91]

If I'm team canada brass I'm CRYING right now, and not tears of joy, that's for sure

I hear ya. Goaltending is the most important position and it's the one position that holds the most uncertainty for Team Canada. Because it's a short tournament, putting in a name that has experience isn't really going to ease my mind if that goalie isn't playing well moving into the Olympic break. You don't get time to get 'hot'. It's like 4 games and then everything becomes an elimination game after that. Very little room to recover from mistakes unless the team is finding ways to cancel their mistakes with plenty of goals (and that's seems too much to expect).

 

[Daisy Jane]

I hear ya. Goaltending is the most important position and it's the one position that holds the most uncertainty for Team Canada. Because it's a short tournament, putting in a name that has experience isn't really going to ease my mind if that goalie isn't playing well moving into the Olympic break. You don't get time to get 'hot'. It's like 4 games and then everything becomes an elimination game after that. Very little room to recover from mistakes unless the team is finding ways to cancel their mistakes with plenty of goals (and that's seems too much to expect).

exactly.
i mean, heck - if even ONE of team canada's hopefuls were really looking "good" [and by good - i mean, sparkling spectacular ] so far I'd be a bit more confident. but Luongo... eh. Holtby... ehhh... MAF... okayish? Price? ehhhh

maybe starting november things will level out - but if not? Canada's going to have to outscore their problems big time

 

[FlareKnight]

As to the goaltending situation it really is the most uncertain position for Canada. No problem getting an elite bunch of forwards there and defense should be fine. It's the net that's a big black hole of "anyone could take the job."

 

[NoTouchIcing]

Oh, no doubt. There are many who will secretly...or not so secretly...will be cheering against Bernier. Which is bizarre, but don't ask me to explain the sports fan.

I'm not so secretly cheering against Price. Does that count?