Draft and UDFA Thread 2018-19: Part VII (No Kakko/Hughes Talk)

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FireGerardGallant

The Artist Formerly known as FireDavidQuinn
Mar 19, 2016
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Why do so many Rangers posters always talk about trading Kreider?

He's a lock to score somewhere from 21 to 28 goals every year & he's only 27 years old.

And why would you trade that for a #10 pick that you'd hope one day might........uh.......score 28 goals per year three or four years from now.

I don't get it. :huh:
People don't wanna sign him to a new deal
 

Edge

Kris King's Ghost
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What are the chances the Rangers move up to get Dach? Would Kreider plus WPG hypothetical 18th OA and DAL 1st be enough? Or am I just crazy. His size and skill would be a nice addition.

If there's any chance at getting into the top 10, you're probably looking at a deal (or a 1-2 punch of deals) involving one of Kreider, Buch, Skjei, or Andersson, in some capacity.

I don't think you can trade right into the top 10, unless you have a team that really wants to go for it and feels motivated to add young veteran. In that sense, I think someone like Buch becomes more attractive to a team because of the age/upside combination. But I don't think the Rangers would be keen to that idea.

A more practical, but still difficult path would likely require two separate moves. You'd have to move to someone like Kreider to a team with a mid-first, aka the teams that want to have a chance to do what Dallas, Carolina, etc. are doing this year --- take that next step, get over the hump and into the playoffs, and maybe get into a situation where the matchup is favorable and the breaks go your way.

So that's why you see people spitballing about moving Kreider to a team like Arizona for 14, and then bundling that pick to move up.

The Rangers will have the assets to make a move. It's a question about cost. Having the Dallas pick would help, A LOT. And having that Jets pick slide down to 18 or 19 would help, A LOT. But I don't think those two bundled together get you into the top 10. I think those two picks, bundled with Kreider certainly would, but then you start getting into the realm of insane over-payments.

While the Rangers would love to get another top 10 pick, and are expected to be aggressive, I don't know if I see them going guano loco to make it happen either.

I think the best case scenario for the Rangers moving into the top 10 would be if they can move Kreider for 14, if the Jets pick ends up at 18, and if the Dallas pick comes in at 28.

In that scenario, I think there's at least a chance they can bundle 14 and 28 to maybe approach Edmonton, Anaheim or Vancouver. If they're close enough, and someone they love slips, Minnesota is also a potential trade partner --- especially if the Rangers are sitting just two spots back. Admittedly, that would probably be ideal because the cost to move up two slots might only be a second.

But let's assume 14 and 28 is the cost to get to 9, and is particularly appealing to Anaheim because they would now have three first round picks. Of course that all depends on whether they are confident they can get someone they love just as much at 14 as they do at 9. For all we know they have Zegras in a virtual tie with five other players, which means one of them will be there at 14.

The Rangers could also bundle 18 and 58 to get to 14, and then package 14 and 28 to get to 9 or 10. That would involve them keeping Kreider, having significantly less picks, but also getting a guy they love.

The Rangers could also go the Kreider route, pursue 9 or 10, and then package 18 and 58 to get to 15.

Or they could change their mind, drop the pursuit of a top 10 pick, and just focus on smaller moves. Bundling 18 and 58 to move up 3-4 slots; staying put at 28; and being perfectly content to pick at 2, 14, 28 and 37.

But having more assets is always helpful, because it does give you more leeway to "splurge" a little.

The Jets pick being at 21 vs. 26/28 is huge because the difference is worth a second. Similarly, a drop down to 18 would be huge, because that's the value of another second.

The Dallas pick being 28 instead of 50 would also be tremendous.

Admittedly, the Tampa pick being 31 and not 58, and Vegas winning the other night would've been great, but it is what it is. We do still have some interesting possibilities, but we won't know what we have to work with for a few weeks still.
 
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Thirty One

Safe is safe.
Dec 28, 2003
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Why do so many Rangers posters always talk about trading Kreider?

He's a lock to score somewhere from 21 to 28 goals every year & he's only 27 years old.

And why would you trade that for a #10 pick that you'd hope one day might........uh.......score 28 goals per year three or four years from now.

I don't get it. :huh:
Players perform to their cap hit much less frequently in their UFA years than before it. There's no way I would want the #10 pick for an 18 year old Kreider yet to go through the entry level system, but the years where he's a bargain are likely gone. There's also more upside in the #10 pick (28 goals is not its ceiling), so if you're looking for a small chance at that transformative talent, that's the play.
 
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Off Sides

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I think I'm on the Newhook train, if they can trade up to get him, he seems to fall in the sweet spot where he may not go that high, yet still is among the caliber of player of those who are generally ranked higher.

I like Krebs, Boldy too, I like a bunch of others too yet just for position, size, speed, talent, possible slightly later draft slot reasons all combined, Newhook seems to fit.
 

Edge

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And using this as a reference point, getting into the top 10 usually requires you to be within 4 slots of that pick, and costs three picks.

So, if you move Kreider for 14 heading into the draft.

You're most likely option, at least based on precedent, would be to approach Vancouver (maybe stretch it to Anaheim because they would have the ability to load up on picks in this draft).

And, based on precedent, your cost to get to 9 or 10 is likely going to be one of these combos:
  • 14, 37 and a fourth
  • 14, 58 and a third
  • or 14 and 28

It would appear that 14 and 18 would be on the high-end. But it can't be ruled out either.

So no matter how you slice it, getting to around 14 is critical.

There's the Kreider approach. There's also the possibility of taking 18 and 58 to get to 14.

From there you would likely need the following combos to get 9 or 10:
  • 14 and 28
  • 14, 50, and a third
 
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SA16

Sixstring
Aug 25, 2006
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Why do so many Rangers posters always talk about trading Kreider?

He's a lock to score somewhere from 21 to 28 goals every year & he's only 27 years old.

And why would you trade that for a #10 pick that you'd hope one day might........uh.......score 28 goals per year three or four years from now.

I don't get it. :huh:

The point of trading a player for picks is not to get that exact quality of player back. It's to avoid signing them to a long term deal that will take them through their declining years while getting the chance of something good in return. Even if you end up getting a bust in return that could still end up better than re-signing the player.
 
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NYRFANMANI

Department of Rempe Safety Management
Apr 21, 2007
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I'm not a fan of Dach, at all. His skating really worries me.

If we're moving into the top 10 I want Cozens followed by Zegras.

Agree except for Cozens and Caufield.

Zegras being fine, but we already get the jackpot with Kakko and the we need to take care of buisness, i.e. shooter, sniper.
In the top 10 it can't be RHD. It must be offense.

Cozens being right-handed would be major. But a huge pipe dream. He's top 5. Caufield and Kakko and we can get stoked.

How does Lafreniere compare to 2018's top two guys?

I hesitate to use their names, for the title has forbade me.

I supposed he'll be hyped to the level of McJesus/Crosby.

I would rank him higher than Hughes, simply because he's got size too (my preference, same reason I'd rank Kakko a tiny bit higher than Hughes).
Lafreniere is supposed to have elite playmaking, athletisism and size. That's one aspect more than Hughes (lacking size). But maybe Hughes is that much of a wizard, we'll have to see.

Ultimately I'd say better than both.
 
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Leetch3

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given how stacked the USDP was, should there be concerned that certain guys have inflated numbers playing with really good players? you could have 5 of the top 10 picks coming from that team. not sure if that raises any red flags though...
 

Amazing Kreiderman

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Apr 11, 2011
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given how stacked the USDP was, should there be concerned that certain guys have inflated numbers playing with really good players? you could have 5 of the top 10 picks coming from that team. not sure if that raises any red flags though...

I brought this up last week. Without taking anything away from the real stars on that team, they have a HUGE advantage having played together all season, unlike every other national team at the u18s.
 

NYR Viper

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Sep 9, 2007
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I don't see Kreider getting 14 on his own.

I'll happily be wrong tho.

We've discussed this a bit as well. Say a team like Arizona really needs to make that next step. They trade the 14th pick and Crouse to the Rangers.

Worst case scenario:

The Yotes don't make the playoffs. They then trade Kreider at the deadline for....

A 1st + good prospect or young player. The Hayes package.

So perhaps they move down from 14 this year, to 24 next year. How do the drafts compare depth wise? Is that a worthwhile gamble for an organization looking to take that next step and get over the hump and into the playoffs? I don't think it's unreasonable.
 

Off Sides

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We've discussed this a bit as well. Say a team like Arizona really needs to make that next step. They trade the 14th pick and Crouse to the Rangers.

Worst case scenario:

The Yotes don't make the playoffs. They then trade Kreider at the deadline for....

A 1st + good prospect or young player. The Hayes package.

So perhaps they move down from 14 this year, to 24 next year. How do the drafts compare depth wise? Is that a worthwhile gamble for an organization looking to take that next step and get over the hump and into the playoffs? I don't think it's unreasonable.


I think most teams in this draft are probably pretty high on the prospects where they are picking,

My guess it would take Kreider and a later first to move up to. (Jet if it comes in at like ~20)

In @Amazing Kreiderman charts above, 2008, #17 and #28 traded for #12.

I think Kreider could represent the #28
 
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Off Sides

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What about Kreider and our 2nd rounder for 8OA? Not enough?

Tough to say, I doubt it yet maybe the teams are not as high on this draft as I think they are, yet just my take, there seems to be like a whole tier of about 10-12 or so prospects past pick #2 who could go just about anywhere. (I mean I expect some to go earlier than others but I would not be totally surprised to see those generally ranked earlier to go a little later and vice versa)

How much those teams value those picks versus moving down, I don't know.

Mostly the reason I see Kreider as somewhat lower value, he is basically an extended rental, and at the draft most team have looked at their possible picks for a long time and have fallen in love with the idea of some of them. If any of them are there, prying that pick away I think costs more than it probably should where as Kreider's value is probably lower than it probably should be in comparison.
 

Ola

Registered User
Apr 10, 2004
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Not just relating to Caufield, but in general, the misconception that "you cannot hit what you cannot catch" is just that. Those players get hit too.

Is smaller players more injured than bigger players? I think that is another misconception.

I think you are right, it’s more about hockey sense. Some guys are very very hard to hit though.
 

broadwayblue

Registered User
Mar 4, 2004
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Tough to say, I doubt it yet maybe the teams are not as high on this draft as I think they are, yet just my take, there seems to be like a whole tier of about 10-12 or so prospects past pick #2 who could go just about anywhere. (I mean I expect some to go earlier than others but I would not be totally surprised to see those generally ranked earlier to go a little later and vice versa)

How much those teams value those picks versus moving down, I don't know.

Mostly the reason I see Kreider as somewhat lower value, he is basically an extended rental, and at the draft most team have looked at their possible picks for a long time and have fallen in love with the idea of some of them. If any of them are there, prying that pick away I think costs more than it probably should where as Kreider's value is probably lower than it probably should be in comparison.

I was thinking perhaps the Oilers can't survive another year without playoffs might make them more likely to consider moving their pick for someone who can contribute now, and at a reasonable cost. Unless they think the guy they take with the 8th pick is going to step in right away that is.
 

notwolfy

Registered User
Nov 15, 2013
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If the Rangers were smart they would see if they could trade down just a few spots and draft the guy who will be the best goal scorer in this draft, Cole Caulfield. They could possibly get a huge haul for their second pick and still come out on top.
 

The Crypto Guy

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Jun 26, 2017
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If the Rangers were smart they would see if they could trade down just a few spots and draft the guy who will be the best goal scorer in this draft, Cole Caulfield. They could possibly get a huge haul for their second pick and still come out on top.
We aren't trading Kaapo.
 
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Thirty One

Safe is safe.
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If the Rangers were smart they would see if they could trade down just a few spots and draft the guy who will be the best goal scorer in this draft, Cole Caulfield. They could possibly get a huge haul for their second pick and still come out on top.
giphy.gif
 

Off Sides

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I was thinking perhaps the Oilers can't survive another year without playoffs might make them more likely to consider moving their pick for someone who can contribute now, and at a reasonable cost. Unless they think the guy they take with the 8th pick is going to step in right away that is.

If I were the Oilers, I'd be in line with that thinking, yet I am also pretty sure Kreider may leave after just one year.

If I move completely out of round 1 and Kreider leaves, I'm left with nothing in terms of tangible assets from that trade. Unless I trade Kreider at next deadline for the late 1st and limited ceiling prospects type deal.

I probably want more to give up the #8 pick to put myself in that position. Yet it's the Oilers so who knows. Even beyond that Kreider does have a limited no trade clause of 11 teams, they may be on it.

The clause in general, I think that probably lowers his value a bit too, any team trading for him has to take that clause which means next deadline it could complicate moving him again.

If I am the Oilers or any other team, If it's Kreider and I do not move all the way out of the 1st round, and the Rangers either retain some or take back some cap, then I'm thinking, hey I'm getting Kreider for a reduced rate, I'm still in the 1st round, then I'm entertaining that deal more.
 
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