Post-Game Talk: Don't wanna let us wearing our Red Home Jersey? No Problem Mr Dundon... (Canes 4-6 Habs)

[Lshap]

What players trajectory is heading down? The names I see here are Petry and Weber and neither are showing a downward trajectory and both are signed for multiple more years.

You mention better draft picks, while trading Petry or Weber this TDL is not going to get us a better pick then what we have now because non playoff teams aren't trading for those guys at TDL.

We have nothing to trade at TDL because we don't have any big name UFA's and I think its wiser to hold onto any players and see what opens up during the summer or even next TDL where for all we know we can be back at the bottom again.

As I said, I'm a fan of Petry and have defended Weber's 'decline' as being purely in his critics' imagination. It would be a gamble to trade them. But in business, in life and in sports, big goals require big gambles. I'm ready to gamble at the high stakes table where the contenders are, because all of them have forwards in the top-2o, and all have a stronger/much-stronger core of d-men. Some of our vets are very good, but I'm tired of kidding myself they'll turn us into a contender. Our kids look very good, but I'm tired of kidding myself that they'll magically become superstars. We need elite talent, and we ain't signing star UFAs. The only way to acquire them is when they're entering the league. Draft them, trade up in the draft, or trade for a top prospect.

 

[Runner77]

I think your example would most certainly demonstrate that a rabid fan base is quick to call a guy an idiot. The only reason he'd be searchable on google is precedent, but it's not necessarily indicative of anything objectively. He's unpopular and he's made unpopular moves, doesn't mean they're always bad. He's made dumb moves that's for sure but I'm not willing to say he hasn't done lots of things well.

Of course it's not "indicative of anything objectively". How could it, given the elaborate, multi-layered, highly-evolved mathematical and scientific process involved:

Pichai explained that the company doesn’t “manually intervene” in search results, and instead search results are based on crawling the content of web pages.

“We provide search today for any time you type in a keyword. We, as Google, have gone out and crawled and stored copies of billions of their pages in our index, and we take the keyword and match it against the pages and rank them based on over 200 signals,” Pichai said.
“Things like relevance, freshness, popularity, how other people are using it. And based on that, you know, at any given time, we try to find the best results for that query,” he added.

The process is much more objective than your slanted opinion. You're defending an individual against a process that is mining a vast array of data that is telling you that he is associated with being an idiot. Google's conclusion based on a triage of every available permutation in the virtual world is that he is an idiot.

I'll take Google's conclusion over your very unpersuasive argument, thank-you.

 

[CauZuki]

As I said, I'm a fan of Petry and have defended Weber's 'decline' as being purely in his critics' imagination. It would be a gamble to trade them. But in business, in life and in sports, big goals require big gambles. I'm ready to gamble at the high stakes table where the contenders are, because all of them have forwards in the top-2o, and all have a stronger/much-stronger core of d-men. Some of our vets are very good, but I'm tired of kidding myself they'll turn us into a contender. Our kids look very good, but I'm tired of kidding myself that they'll magically become superstars. We need elite talent, and we ain't signing star UFAs. The only way to acquire them is when they're entering the league. Draft them, trade up in the draft, or trade for a top prospect.

What's crazy is that every single team that has emerged over the last couple of seasons are all being lead by top draft picks. Nobody seems to acknowledge that this is what sets teams apart and remaining in the bubble is the worst position to be in today's NHL.

I don't see how we can expect to compete anytime soon in a division with Toronto,Tampa,Buffalo,Florida. These teams have better pieces than us and we are only talking about our division.

The strategy clearly isn't about winning the cup , it's about getting the team good enough to get the fans butts in the seats, buying the merchandise and overpriced everything else. This is the worst kind of posturing coming from a management team that has proven time and time again that they don't have the vision required to turn this team into a contender. Some want guarantees , well there are no guarantees with any strategy , only the patterns we see with the best NHL teams. They have young players that produce and dominate the league that were drafted in the early 1st round. We have some very nice pieces but we are missing those catalyst type pieces that make a team special.


The evidence is clear (unrelated to draft status):

Marchand/Bergeron/Krejci/Seguin/Chara/Thomas
Kopitar/Gaborik/Carter/Richards/Doughty/Quick
Kane/Toews/Saad/Hossa/Keith/Seabrook/Crawford
Crosby/Malkin/Kessel/Letang/Fleury
Ovechkin/Backstrom/Kuznetsov/Carlson/Holtby

I just can't see these players and put them in a similar category as:

Domi/Drouin/Kotkaniemi/Gallagher/Weber/Price

Maybe I'm selling our prospects short and I'll est crow if I'm wrong , just don't see it...

 

[admiralcadillac]

Of course it's not "indicative of anything objectively". How could it, given the elaborate, multi-layered, highly-evolved mathematical and scientific process involved:

Pichai explained that the company doesn’t “manually intervene” in search results, and instead search results are based on crawling the content of web pages.

“We provide search today for any time you type in a keyword. We, as Google, have gone out and crawled and stored copies of billions of their pages in our index, and we take the keyword and match it against the pages and rank them based on over 200 signals,” Pichai said.
“Things like relevance, freshness, popularity, how other people are using it. And based on that, you know, at any given time, we try to find the best results for that query,” he added.

The process is much more objective than your slanted opinion. You're defending an individual against a process that is mining a vast array of data that is telling you that he is associated with being an idiot. Google's conclusion based on a triage of every available permutation in the virtual world is that he is an idiot.

I'll take Google's conclusion over your very unpersuasive argument, thank-you.

Being objectively associated with being an idiot does not mean he's objectively an idiot. Especially when those search results are coming from a fanbase such as Montreal's where fans are notoriously prone to name calling management, players and anyone really associated with the team.

I think you're purposefully ignoring the point I'm making Runner. I really don't know what you were thinking was my argument.

 

[Runner77]

Being objectively associated with being an idiot does not mean he's objectively an idiot. Especially when those search results are coming from a fanbase such as Montreal's where fans are notoriously prone to name calling management, players and anyone really associated with the team.

I think you're purposefully ignoring the point I'm making Runner. I really don't know what you were thinking was my argument.

The search results are not only associated with the Habs fan base. You're making stuff up.

It's based on a wide, authoritative, comprehensive search. A vast array of individuals not solely tethered to the Montreal market, are recognizing him as an idiot. And given the sheer magnitude of data and the process used, the conclusion is overwhelming. I rest my case. And will not respond further due to diminishing returns based on past experience in debating your posts. Moving right along.

 

[sandysan]

The message we'd be sending is the exact same message sent by every team that ever traded a veteran: "We're building a contender". There's your message. Of course it doesn't always work out. But every single player in the NHL knows they'll likely be traded at some point under that banner. And every single fan reaches a point of frustration where they need to hear their GM say and do just that. A large chunk of Habs fans have reached that point.


You can call it "Pie in the sky". I call it taking the necessary risks to become better. To be clear, I have no wish to lose Petry, Weber or Byron. I love those players. I felt bad when Pacioretty was traded because he was a terrific and loyal player for years. But... I'm at that frustration point mentioned above, where I'm sick of being half-built/almost-good-enough. The previous approach didn't work. We tried and tried and tried... and it didn't work. Time for a change. Is there a guarantee that mining the prospect pool will get us all the way there? Of course not. But when not a single Montreal Canadien is in the top-20 in scoring for decades and there doesn't appear to be a path beyond the 1st or 2nd round, it's time to build our roster the way other contenders have built theirs: Through prospects.

As I said in another post, I get why fans don't want to jettison their favourite players. There's no wrong way to be a fan. But look at how much the Habs have changed in the past six months and ask yourself if you like what you see. If you do, why not continue on this same course and possibly add even more high-end talent?

You asked why " we didn't make trades" when to start the season we traded our captain AND the highest player ( tied) we have drafted in a decade,

So let's focus on galchenyuk becuase he is really informative. Coming outta junior where he was injured we took a chance becuase we NEEDED a center. So based on the expectation that he would become a NHL center in Montreal, yoy would have shipped dano because he was declining and by the time galchenyuk became a center, we wouldn't need dano.
How do you think that would have worked out?

Suzuki MIGHT play center and might play wing, so to fill holes for him who do you move? Lehkonen? Peca? Shaw? Byron? Who? Becuase foe your plan to work you have to get rid of those guys before you know where the hell Suzuki is even gonna play.

And pie in the sky is precisely what you are advocating, that the new shiny bubble MUST be better than the known quantity bauble.

Becuase if montreal has anything, it's a stellar track record of developing players that your pie in the sky " maybe this will work" depends on.

Thanks but no

 

[Kriss E]

Most of this board was in agreement this summer that Bergevin was once more destroying this team by trading a proven C for a winger that was just good to score in a empty net, it was almost unanimous...

We don't need to burn down everything. The last thing this team need is to become the next Oilers ... even McDavid is not able to turn them respectable... and it just happen that trading Petry didn't help them. You really want to follow this path?

I'm really fed up of hearing the piss poor argument of the Oilers as if that is the only possible outcome.
You are right man....if we trade Petry or Weber...we will be doomed to suck forever. Riiiiiight.

 

[Kriss E]

So drafting 6-7 centers last year is not a change of strategy, acquiring Domi is luck even if he didnt play one shift on the wing and was a PPG playing center the last 20ish game in Arizona,acquiring Suzuki, drafting bust or boom players instead of DLR type of players, playing a way more offensive style...I dont know, i hate Bergevin probably more then anyone on this board before this summer, but my hate for him dosnt blind me to the point that i cant see that the organisation at least evolve this summer and is going in another diection and is adopting a new strategy drafting wise and in his style of play on the ice.

What ''change of direction'' are you referring to? They focused on getting centers...euh...okay. Not sure how that's a change of direction, right now they're looking at Dmen probably..is that another change of direction?
They did good last summer, that's all there is to it. Turning this into ''woah..Bergevin changed!'' is a bit silly. I need to see him keep making good decisions before claiming that.

 

[Kriss E]

We need to just trade every veteran and hopefully luck out with lottery picks. Because that's what people who have never held management roles do because their jobs aren't on the line.

Ya man...you got it. Trade every veteran....all of them need to be traded on the same day too.
Oh..and we should only get a 25th+ pick.

 

[Kriss E]

Wow from not wanting To trade Petry for scrap you assume that I want To destroy the team future for a 1 round of playoff?????

Wow wow wow !!!!

Why not try to play smart for once, this team start To have a future, this future is not yet ready to make the team a contenter but at the same time that future need the support of few good veteransTo establish themself in the NHL.

As for one, the worst thing to do would be either To sell the veterans for future or to sell our future for veterans ...

Why do Habs need to do either of those 2 bad options????

You are describing what the Habs have done for as long as I can remember, and it's failed everytime.
Learn. Time to learn and do something differently.

 

[Kriss E]

I think playoff experience would be good for this young team but I do certainly agree that we should be sellers. If we buy,I want young talent. A LD in particular. As LShap said, we should try to aim for a window where Suzuki, Poehling, Brook or whoever ends up being an NHLer and build with them in mind,

Yup..I've said it a few times now, the new core is what we should focus on. Weber - Price - Petry...they are complimentary vets. They're not the focus. We need to add to this base. If we can do that while retaining those vets, fine, but if we have to move some to get better, so be it.

 

[admiralcadillac]

The search results are not only associated with the Habs fan base. You're making stuff up.

It's based on a wide, authoritative, comprehensive search. A vast array of individuals not solely tethered to the Montreal market, are recognizing him as an idiot. And given the sheer magnitude of data and the process used, the conclusion is overwhelming. I rest my case. And will not respond further due to diminishing returns based on past experience in debating your posts. Moving right along.

No one with any authority in the game of hockey is calling him an idiot such that it shows up in search results. How is that not obvious to you?

They would not be using the word.

How is a google search not associated with a fan base that most often generates what comes up in search results about Bergevin? What are you talking about? You know exactly what I'm saying.

Your pride is showing and it's quite ugly unfortunately.

 

[Le compétiteur]

I'm really fed up of hearing the piss poor argument of the Oilers as if that is the only possible outcome.
You are right man....if we trade Petry or Weber...we will be doomed to suck forever. Riiiiiight.

So you are saying that if Habs trade Petry or Weber for pick/prospect improve the team?

Even if one of the pick/prospect turn to be about as good as the player we traded it's just a lateral move at best ( trading a top 4 RD now for a top 4RD in the future).

To improve the team we need that also the pick/prospect we get pan out too.

Habs are not 1 or 2 trade away. Still too many holes, the furure is not there yet, trading Petry or Weber now make the team worst for present, some magic beans that you hope that will pan out while most likely mailing current management to rush the future to try to fill the hole made in the line up (Mete as a good recent exemple)

 

[Le compétiteur]

You are describing what the Habs have done for as long as I can remember, and it's failed everytime.
Learn. Time to learn and do something differently.

???????

The Habs either rush prospect or trade them away ... where did I proposed this?

 

[Kriss E]

So you are saying that if Habs trade Petry or Weber for pick/prospect improve the team?

Even if one of the pick/prospect turn to be about as good as the player we traded it's just a lateral move at best ( trading a top 4 RD now for a top 4RD in the future).

To improve the team we need that also the pick/prospect we get pan out too.

Habs are not 1 or 2 trade away. Still too many holes, the furure is not there yet, trading Petry or Weber now make the team worst for present, some magic beans that you hope that will pan out while most likely mailing current management to rush the future to try to fill the hole made in the line up (Mete as a good recent exemple)

If you think the team has too many holes, not sure why you're against trading vets.
It's all about timing.
Can the Habs realistically contend within the time span where Petry...Price...Weber are still going to be very useful to us, or are we better moving some of these guys in order to get younger guys that will help more in the future? To me I'd rather get younger guys because as you said, too many holes.

 

[Kriss E]

???????

The Habs either rush prospect or trade them away ... where did I proposed this?

I meant...no commitment to any direction..dont give up futures in trade...dont sell either...just stick with status quo, maybe sign a free agent, wait for a perfect trade...and watch the parade go by.

 

[Lshap]

You asked why " we didn't make trades" when to start the season we traded our captain AND the highest player ( tied) we have drafted in a decade,

So let's focus on galchenyuk becuase he is really informative. Coming outta junior where he was injured we took a chance becuase we NEEDED a center. So based on the expectation that he would become a NHL center in Montreal, yoy would have shipped dano because he was declining and by the time galchenyuk became a center, we wouldn't need dano.
How do you think that would have worked out?

Suzuki MIGHT play center and might play wing, so to fill holes for him who do you move? Lehkonen? Peca? Shaw? Byron? Who? Becuase foe your plan to work you have to get rid of those guys before you know where the hell Suzuki is even gonna play.

Your trade examples aren't what I'm talking about. The point isn't to have a turnstile of incoming & outgoing players. It's simply to maximize the odds of getting an elite player. We don't need a complete roster turnover; we need one or two bonafide stars. "One or two" of anything sounds simple, but in this case, elite talent is the hardest thing to find. It's also absolutely essential if you want to win a Cup.

There's no reason to trade promising young players who can be part of a maturing, improving team. I'm talking about dangling older players who are closer to declining, but not yet declining. Sell high. Again, it's not an exact science. It's a gamble, but one worth taking based on the model of success of other winning teams.

Trading Petry for a pick means we lose a very good 2nd pair D, but we gain a shot at landing a star player. How much of a shot? Debatable. However, keeping Petry is a 100% guarantee of not getting a star player.

And pie in the sky is precisely what you are advocating, that the new shiny bubble MUST be better than the known quantity bauble.

Becuase if montreal has anything, it's a stellar track record of developing players that your pie in the sky " maybe this will work" depends on.

Thanks but no

Pie in the sky is expecting the same failed approach to work, even after decades of evidence that it doesn't work. As we've seen, the Habs are not getting elite talent through the UFA market. Trading for elite talent is near-impossible -- it requires trading away elite talent we don't even have. Only one way remains: Getting elite talent before it becomes elite. That's what Tampa, Winnipeg, Nashville, Washington, Toronto, Colorado did. They drafted well, they developed well, and now they're on top thanks to their homegrown stars. Habs need to accept the same longer-term, unsexy path to success, because it's the only way to get there.

 

[Lshap]

What's crazy is that every single team that has emerged over the last couple of seasons are all being lead by top draft picks. Nobody seems to acknowledge that this is what sets teams apart and remaining in the bubble is the worst position to be in today's NHL.

I don't see how we can expect to compete anytime soon in a division with Toronto,Tampa,Buffalo,Florida. These teams have better pieces than us and we are only talking about our division.

The strategy clearly isn't about winning the cup , it's about getting the team good enough to get the fans butts in the seats, buying the merchandise and overpriced everything else. This is the worst kind of posturing coming from a management team that has proven time and time again that they don't have the vision required to turn this team into a contender. Some want guarantees , well there are no guarantees with any strategy , only the patterns we see with the best NHL teams. They have young players that produce and dominate the league that were drafted in the early 1st round. We have some very nice pieces but we are missing those catalyst type pieces that make a team special.


The evidence is clear (unrelated to draft status):

Marchand/Bergeron/Krejci/Seguin/Chara/Thomas
Kopitar/Gaborik/Carter/Richards/Doughty/Quick
Kane/Toews/Saad/Hossa/Keith/Seabrook/Crawford
Crosby/Malkin/Kessel/Letang/Fleury
Ovechkin/Backstrom/Kuznetsov/Carlson/Holtby

I just can't see these players and put them in a similar category as:

Domi/Drouin/Kotkaniemi/Gallagher/Weber/Price

Maybe I'm selling our prospects short and I'll est crow if I'm wrong , just don't see it...

Agree completely. Habs have some really good young player to build around, but we still don't stack up against the best teams. It's possible that Kotkaniemi and Suzuki will blossom into elite talent, but we should have learned our lesson to not place all our eggs in that basket. If Bergevin does nothing and assumes the job is done, the Habs might once again be a playoff team. Or he could do what hasn't been done in forever: Risk losing very-good veterans for potentially elite prospects, and give us a shot at being the best.