Don, I Don't Think This Cone Of Silence Is Working (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XXIV

[W75]

I watch NHL because the best players are there. I've got a favorite team in NHL that I follow. It was hard and it sucked when Gaborik went to NY. But I'm still a Wild fan. And I suppose, there are not many Devils fans who switch to Wild because of Parise.

I think this whole debate, who is the most important, is absurd. Fans cheer teams and their players. Players need teams to play. Owners need players to sell their teams to the fans. You take one ingredient away and the the whole concept stalls.

Now, two of these ingredients arguing how do they split our money. And we're debating that how they should argue about how they share our money.

Nobody is the most important. It just doesn't work if you take out any of them.

 

[stefanh]

Sorry if this is a stupid question but does a lockout year count towards a players contract?

Wondering because this would be Iginla's last year in Calgary. Would be really sad if he signed somewhere else next season and we never got to see him play in red again. He probably will sign in Calgary but still...

Also so sad because I doubt Selanne comes back again after this terrible mess. A really crappy way for him to go... will totally be forgotten now as opposed to playing his last game at the end of the season to a standing ovation.

God I hate this lockout. Someone needs to jump Bettman and Ferh.

Yes it does

 

[Nolanitis]

Those companies knew the CBA was expiring so that's there fault.

I was expecting that hypocritical response, so it is ok for the league to collect but god forbid the players try to collect on their contracts. Think about what you are saying.

It is hard to equate the players to the general public, but I see some great parallels. In the US the top.5% are controlling 60% of the money in this country, but the workers are damned if they want a bigger slice or want the elite to pay their fair share of taxes. It is just amazing how the media which is controlled by the elite has influenced the general public about labor relations, simply amazing.

 

[BLONG7]

Are they meeting again today?

 

[SufferingCatFan]

The players sign papers subjecting their contracts to the CBA. Individual contracts are overridden by the CBA.

Right you are. It really shows how absurd the current CBA negotiations have become now that both sides have essentially agreed on a 50-50 cap. The "make whole" arguments pits the players with big, long term contracts against those with expiring contracts. It pits the owners who are now over the cap against those that are under. That is why the sticking point is the "transition" period.

 

[WildGopher]

I am clearly on the players side for the following reasons:

1. They have signed contracts that no court would allow the owners to back out of even in bankruptcy court seeing how much money the league generates.

2. Bettman/owners continue to act in my way or the highway manner.

3. I watch the game because of the players, I could care less about the owners.

If the owners are going to keep these tactics up I advise the players to sit back. Word on XM NHL is Gillete, Molson, and NBC are getting really pissed off. The owners are going to have to change their stance soon.

I pretty much agree with this. Those who want the players to cave so they can get NHL hockey back right away might do better to look at this long-term. As long as the owners get their way, they'll keep locking out players every time a CBA ends, and we fans will lose hockey seasons or partial seasons every 6 or 7 years. Better players hold firm, make the owner's power play this year uncomfortable for them, and make them think twice about using a lockout as a first resort, instead of a last. I've always been for the owners in these conflicts before, but this time the owners overplayed their hand. The players should hold firm or this will happen every time a CBA expires.

 

[BonkTastic]

But without the owners there's no game to watch, the owners takes all the risk, they pay for equipments, luxury hotels, meals, trainers etc. etc. The players have it damn good, they pay for nothing and are treated like kings.

But the players need the owners more than the owner needs them imo.

Yeah, I don't think I've been "pro player" in pro sports labor negotiations since... 1995? Players have become kings of their sports over the last 20 years. I have absolutely no empathy for them whatsoever when it comes to their contracts. None whatsoever. The era of "pity the poor players" went out of style along with jheri curls in the late 80's/ early 90's. On a percentage basis, Pro athlete salaries have risen as one of the most of any single occupation on earth over the last 20 years.

I absolutely empathize with labor, and I'm pro-labor in almost every other industry. Pro sports is where I draw the line. If you are pro-player, you throw your right to EVER complain about ticket prices ever again. Rising salaries in pro sports is directly linked with the rise of ticket prices.

And let's not cut hairs here, the owners have made a lot of mistakes in this process too, they absolutely have, but I can never, ever side with the players... and to be honest? You can thank Donald Fehr for that. 1995 marked the end of any chance I'd ever be pro-player, in any league worth it's weight and the capability to pay the sort of salaries that the "big 4" are able to. That Fehr's involved in these negotiations in ANY capacity whatsoever in my mind is an absolute disgrace to the game.

As a former DIEHARD baseball fan, and heartbroken Expos fan, I lost respect for the NHLPA the day they hired Fehr. He was (arguably) the single worst thing to happen to Major League Baseball in the last 50 years, and is directly responsible for the broken system they have in place in that league (along with Selig, but we can discuss those warts in an OT MLB thread).

That the NHLPA brought him on... shows an absolute disrespect to the game of hockey, IMO. I said it the day he was hired, and I'll say it now... and I have a hard time believing most serious MLB fans old enough to remember 1995 don't agree with me.

 

[King Woodballs]

I doubt the owners fold and not locking them out would be suicide for the nhl
They are not that stupid

 

[BLONG7]

Yeah, I don't think I've been "pro player" in pro sports labor negotiations since... 1995? Players have become kings of their sports over the last 20 years. I have absolutely no empathy for them whatsoever when it comes to their contracts. None whatsoever. The era of "pity the poor players" went out of style along with jheri curls in the late 80's/ early 90's. On a percentage basis, Pro athlete salaries have risen as one of the most of any single occupation on earth over the last 20 years.

I absolutely empathize with labor, and I'm pro-labor in almost every other industry. Pro sports is where I draw the line. If you are pro-player, you throw your right to EVER complain about ticket prices ever again. Rising salaries in pro sports is directly linked with the rise of ticket prices.

And let's not cut hairs here, the owners have made a lot of mistakes in this process too, they absolutely have, but I can never, ever side with the players... and to be honest? You can thank Donald Fehr for that. 1995 marked the end of any chance I'd ever be pro-player, in any league worth it's weight and the capability to pay the sort of salaries that the "big 4" are able to. That Fehr's involved in these negotiations in ANY capacity whatsoever in my mind is an absolute disgrace to the game.

As a former DIEHARD baseball fan, and heartbroken Expos fan, I lost respect for the NHLPA the day they hired Fehr. He was (arguably) the single worst thing to happen to Major League Baseball in the last 50 years, and is directly responsible for the broken system they have in place in that league (along with Selig, but we can discuss those warts in an OT MLB thread). That the NHLPA brought him on... shows an absolute disrespect to the game of hockey, IMO.

I said it the day he was hired, and I'll say it now.

Well said...

Hiring Fehr was a huge miscalculation, and they may lose 2 years of earnings...

 

[Zibanejad]

As per the NHL's agreement with NBC, NBC is paying the NHL this season, but the NHL is required to add an extra year to NBC's deal FREE OF CHARGE. So while yes, the league is getting paid for this season, they need to provide NBC with a season for free 10 years from now, which would invariably be worth MUCH more than this year's season would be worth (inflation, expected increase in revenue, etc...).

expected increase in revenue, yes. etc, yes

inflation, no

11 bucks tomorrow is worth what 10 bucks was last year if inflation is 1 buck per year..

 

[Jasper]

I pretty much agree with this. Those who want the players to cave so they can get NHL hockey back right away might do better to look at this long-term. As long as the owners get their way, they'll keep locking out players every time a CBA ends, and we fans will lose hockey seasons or partial seasons every 6 or 7 years. Better players hold firm, make the owner's power play this year uncomfortable for them, and make them think twice about using a lockout as a first resort, instead of a last. I've always been for the owners in these conflicts before, but this time the owners overplayed their hand. The players should hold firm or this will happen every time a CBA expires.

I really don't take sides in this thing, I just want to see hockey, and am disgusted with both the league and players, but I believe the players refuse to roll over for exactly this reason. The amount of money makes all this seem so ridiculous but based on a matter of principle alone the players have a stronger case. They understandably refuse to be pushed around by the league because if they do allow it again it will never end.

 

[tbcwpg]

I am clearly on the players side for the following reasons:

1. They have signed contracts that no court would allow the owners to back out of even in bankruptcy court seeing how much money the league generates.

The owners has offered to repay those contracts back over a period of time, with interest.

2. Bettman/owners continue to act in my way or the highway manner.

Fehr also continues to act this way by proposing very similar proposals each time, and refusing to budge on delinking salaries for the first few years.

3. I watch the game because of the players, I could care less about the owners.

Fair enough, although the players are able to go out there and play because of the owners. Don't think that these guys would be out there for free if there were no owners to pay them.

If the owners are going to keep these tactics up I advise the players to sit back. Word on XM NHL is Gillete, Molson, and NBC are getting really pissed off. The owners are going to have to change their stance soon.

I think that Fehr is the one who isn't budging. The owners are basically negotiating with themselves. I don't see how else the owners can change their stance. Maybe soften on some of the contract issues. That's it. The PA has thus far, from reports, refused to budge on anything.

 

[BonkTastic]

expected increase in revenue, yes. etc, yes

inflation, no

11 bucks tomorrow is worth what 10 bucks was last year if inflation is 1 buck per year..

Agreed, but inflation hits different industries at different rates. The rate of inflation on a national television contract might not match the national level of inflation.

It's clearly not the main reason for cost increase, but it's at least worth a mention.

 

[helicecopter]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-lockout/2012/11/09/grange_cba_all_talk_no_trust_no_progress/

Good piece by Grange summing up where we are.


And heres Elliote Freidman's latest:
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opinion/2012/11/gloves-are-off-between-nhl-players-union.html

you got to wonder if Grange chose to make such a mistaken report or he just wasn't paying attention to Fehr's press and put blatantly false statements in his article by accident.

Also, i wonder why people choose to take everything in there for granted and go crazy off it instead of just hearing Fehr's conference themselves.

Fehr made it abundantly clear that he's not proposed a 5% increase over yrs, and that the additional % is not 1,75 of HRR either; rather less than 1% of HRR.

More importantly, Fehr made it abundantly clear that his proposal would have to be then pro-rated when factoring in the lockout, which was obvious (not to Grange apparently, not even once he was told so).


Being said of Mr. Grange BS, Friedman's reports and contents have instead been definitely worth reading along this Pejorative Slured lockout.


All in all, i see this past day as just another unpleasant step towards NHL games getting back at some point in December.

 

[helicecopter]

The "play 60 games, get paid for 82" comment that seems to have come out yesterday still floors me.

Seriously?

no, LOL. That's BS been made up and somehow taken for granted around here.

 

[Nolanitis]

All in all, i see this past day as just another unpleasant step towards NHL games getting back at some point in December.

I tend to agree with you, I was hoping for a settlement but was not expecting one from these meetings. Both sides have to meet in the middle, and it is not too much money the players are asking for for lockout related revenues. They have missed 1 check so far!

 

[Hawkscap]

Larry Brooks ‏@NYP_Brooksie
Told that PA proposed that players get last year's share plus 5 pct this yr regardless of schedule length/actual revenue...

Larry Brooks ‏@NYP_Brooksie
Last year's share was 1.883B...plus 5 pct would be $1.977B...would likely eat 65-67 pct of revenue in 66-68 game season.

If I was an owner, I would vote to cancel the season right now. NHLPA is not negotiating in good faith.

 

[PBPantherfan]

I was expecting that hypocritical response, so it is ok for the league to collect but god forbid the players try to collect on their contracts. Think about what you are saying.

It is hard to equate the players to the general public, but I see some great parallels. In the US the top.5% are controlling 60% of the money in this country, but the workers are damned if they want a bigger slice or want the elite to pay their fair share of taxes. It is just amazing how the media which is controlled by the elite has influenced the general public about labor relations, simply amazing.

The statement is as bad as the players comparing their 10% salary reduction to a guy making $50k. Ok going from 5.0 million to 4.5 million and getting some of that 500k back next year with interest does in no way compare to a guy making 50k going to 45k. Other than the are both 10% reductions. The amount that loss means to the lifestyles of those two people are completely different.

 

[JoeLH]

Is that good faith bargaining (if that's true, what Brooks writes)? I don't think so ...

 

[Dalton]

He wants the pay for the missing games added to make whole.

Link?

 

[BLONG7]

I thought if they played 60 games, then their salary would just be pro-rated, so much per game...there is no way they would get the entire 82 games pay...

 

[Dalton]

It seems the players want the pay from the missed games added to make whole, 26% of the season is gone.

Maybe 26% of 1.8 billion + 5 % (penalty?) of 1.8 billion = 31 % 0f 1.8 billion = around 600 million. The NHLPA is clearly demanding to be paid back for the missed games through make whole.

Link?

I agree with their thinking but I haven't read this anywhere and Fehr is clearly stating that this is not true.

The union is using what the players would have received this year as a starting point in negotiations which is perfectly sensible.

Your boss wants to reduce your pay 25%. Wouldn't you want that amount reduced from your actual current pay rather than some lower number made up by your boss?

 

[Tra La La]

So the big question? Can they start November 23rd and still get 82 games?Would/Should an 82 game schedule plus the make whole get it done? Already rejected?

 

[Dalton]

I thought if they played 60 games, then their salary would just be pro-rated, so much per game...there is no way they would get the entire 82 games pay...

Fehr has clearly stated that this is the case. That whatever numbers they come up with for the new CBA that this season would be pro-rated based on those numbers.

 

[King Woodballs]

no, LOL. That's BS been made up and somehow taken for granted around here.

Yeah... B.S. made up by 3 credible writers.