Does the team have a coaching or player issue?

Does the team have a coaching or player issue?


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Neighborhood Coyote

Registered User
Sep 14, 2017
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I could have described this better but if you saw how the play was developing no one posting on these boards would ever suggest that, trust me on this. 2nd period (Eg long change), stick broke on far side, vegas noticed so immediately started driving down low. No one would ever tell the D to skate away from the guy on the doorstep for a good 10 seconds which is the time he’d need to get back from the bench. Steal a stick from a fwd? Sure that makes sense. But that’s not what these guys were arguing for. Our guy ended up blocking the shot with his body and hand passing up to the forward who cleared, then he went off for a change.

I have ten or twenty anecdotes that show severe lack of knowledge, very few of them with fans of established teams (the McD guy was local). Have had some GREAT conversations with fans of other teams which is why I think Coyotes fans tend to be more casual than other fans.

And yeah, that ‘less than casual’ (we need a new word for this) imo is part of why we don’t hold our media accountable and part of why our media loves Tocchet and Chayka so much.

Unless someone has another idea? To me this makes sense but maybe I’m missing something

Haha in that case, fair enough point! I've definitely had several convos like that where people approached me because I'm wearing Yote's hats or something and they've said things that show they really don't follow along. I do appreciate them trying to care about the Yotes though, that's at least a good step!

Yea... this team needs to do something to be taken more seriously in the valley. Hell, even the fact that the stream failed on FSAZ in the last game is just another sign of that (or at least it feels like that).
 

_Del_

Registered User
Jul 4, 2003
15,426
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If you fear arbitration then no. It also depends on what other roster moves you want to do.
I think he's basically slightly above replacement level, and the coach doesn't particularly love him. I imagine they just find another body. Burke, Fasching, Bunting, maybe even BBennett can basically fill that 12/13th forward role for a lot less money and little, if any, negative on-ice consequence.
Also, Vinnie has a lot less jam than those names. Not that he's a bad player, I like him. But he's 100% "more of the same" soft, low-motor we have too much of.
 

_Del_

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Jul 4, 2003
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This isn’t a typical dump of useless players.
No, but there are lots of not useless decent players out there teams will be trying to move. Stepan will be easy to move. I bet we still take a body/$ back. Raanta will be harder to move because he's made of glass, not because he's bad. We'll take money back for sure with Raanta.
Neither of those guys will be impossible to move because they have expiring contracts and are decent. Moving them still isn't going to make $9m of cap disappear. More like half that.
 

Mosby

Salt Lake Bound
Feb 16, 2012
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Toronto
Lafreniere is better in my opinion. He does a lot of the same things well as Hall (forechecking, physicality, skating, stick usage, willingness and ability to get back and defend with intensity). But Lafreniere has an element of playmaking/passing that is already elite. I think he's already as good a passer of the puck as a Backstrom or Kuznetsov. His vision and anticipation are THAT good.

EDIT: To clarify and contextualize, I think Laf is a better prospect with higher ceiling than Hall was coming out.

And imagine putting Laf into the hands of someone like Bruce Boudreau. Perfect fit.
 

Mosby

Salt Lake Bound
Feb 16, 2012
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No, but there are lots of not useless decent players out there teams will be trying to move. Stepan will be easy to move. I bet we still take a body/$ back. Raanta will be harder to move because he's made of glass, not because he's bad. We'll take money back for sure with Raanta.
Neither of those guys will be impossible to move because they have expiring contracts and are decent. Moving them still isn't going to make $9m of cap disappear. More like half that.

I wonder if Raanta for Reimer makes sense on this basis:

If you're Arizona, you get a downgrade at backup but you get someone who can stay healthy. The move gives us a decent backup for next season and also shaves 850k off the cap. Then Adin Hill takes that spot for 2021-22.

If you're Carolina, you get a potential upgrade in that Raanta's "ceiling" is higher than Reimer's. Raanta can be elite. You can also feel relatively safe in that Raanta still won't have to take on a starter's workload with Mrazek there, so less chance of injury in theory. All for less than a 1 mil bump and a negligible acquisition cost.
 
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Mangosteen

Ground hog day no more
Apr 9, 2018
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If we make the playoffs will we the the team and the coaches a breather? As Yotes fans what are your expectations?

Should of put a 5th option of fan expectations;)
 

BUX7PHX

Registered User
Jul 7, 2011
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I think what frustrates me the most about the larger situation is...

As fans, we see a certain percentage of the larger whole, and I have no misconceptions that what we see is more than a tiny percentage at that. That being the case, it strikes me that "average fan X" could watch this team over the course of this past season and feel like the coaching staff has been ineffective to the point of deserving of termination. The team's "attitude" or "motor" on the ice, the seeming lack of any real tactical nous, the petulance in post-game interviews, and surface-level analysis of relatively basic usage statistics all seem to stick out like a sore thumb to Joe Blow fan. Watch almost any other game this "post-season" and tell me you dont see a night and day difference between the intensity, the organization and the tactics being employed by virually every other team in this league.

Yet we're CONSTANTLY bombarded by comments that "the only thing the team seems to have done right the last X years is hire RT" and "the players love playing for RT" and "the organization thinks RT is the guy to lead them to success" from players, the FO, the media...

I'm not the sort of person who "has to be right all the time", so...please...tell me...WHERE IS THE DISCONNECT? I want to understand, truly I do.

I agree with this 100%. At this point, the question would be whether or not our players have matured their games properly, and the answer to that is also no for some. But there is enough talent for their games to mature further and faster. So, either we are playing the super long game with our players and coaching staff, or the coaching staff is preparing the team but not to the level to where winning is the priority, hence playing the long game.

I think that players simply like the system and the way he teaches, but every game I feel like we end up on the wrong side of the W and L situations. Eventually, the lack of winning overtakes that aspect. Now we understand what may have caused Domi to go. It's like all the prep work is handled beautifully, and then it isn't working to the degree needed.

Unfortunately, the bigger poison in all of this is that we got matched up against a team that truthfully, should not be in the playoffs either. Of the "home" teams, I saw Nashville as the team most ripe to be knocked off, regardless of opponent. Should we beat Nashville, it provides the impression that we played into the playoffs, but truthfully, our matchup was the most favorable of the QR in the West. Maybe it will take another year for everything to gel in the system, but if we don't start the year off right next year and Hall is signed long term, I think we must move on.
 
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Canis Latrans

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Jan 19, 2015
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I agree with this 100%. At this point, the question would be whether or not our players have matured their games properly, and the answer to that is also no for some. But there is enough talent for their games to mature further and faster. So, either we are playing the super long game with our players and coaching staff, or the coaching staff is preparing the team but not to the level to where winning is the priority, hence playing the long game.

I think that players simply like the system and the way he teaches, but every game I feel like we end up on the wrong side of the W and L situations. Eventually, the lack of winning overtakes that aspect. Now we understand what may have caused Domi to go. It's like all the prep work is handled beautifully, and then it isn't working to the degree needed.

Unfortunately, the bigger poison in all of this is that we got matched up against a team that truthfully, should not be in the playoffs either. Of the "home" teams, I saw Nashville as the team most ripe to be knocked off, regardless of opponent. Should we beat Nashville, it provides the impression that we played into the playoffs, but truthfully, our matchup was the most favorable of the QR in the West. Maybe it will take another year for everything to gel in the system, but if we don't start the year off right next year and Hall is signed long term, I think we must move on.
I think you're over-estimating Calgary and Vancouver. They can be good, but not consistently enough that they cannot be upset. That's the issue with most of the play-ins and why we're bound to see some upsets.
 

BUX7PHX

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Jul 7, 2011
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I think you're over-estimating Calgary and Vancouver. They can be good, but not consistently enough that they cannot be upset. That's the issue with most of the play-ins and why we're bound to see some upsets.

I don't know - if you put the 8 QR teams on a piece of paper, I would argue that Nashville as the 6 seed is equally as likely as teams who are "seeded" 7 through 11. A unique luck of the draw for us, but I think that it we were in a 5 games series with any one of Vancouver, Calgary, Winnipeg, or Minnesota, we would be down 2-1 at minimum, and probably eliminated against Minnesota, given our performances against the Wild. That's the advantage and disadvantage - if we had to play the remaining season against the teams we would close the season out against, I don't see us or Nashville making it. Nashville had a ton of games left to play and a more difficult set of games to play, relative to the playoff peers. I seem to recall the Preds being in one of those situations where the optics (9 road vs 4 home games to close season type of deal) worked against them. We happened to be the team that got 5 games against a team that we match up well against, but it may actually be more like the 9 vs 11 seed to go on to the playoffs...
 
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Jakey53

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Aug 27, 2011
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Stepan would be a great 3C if he had 50% of his cap hit. But he doesn’t. So he’s not.

And if it comes to it Stepan can be moved pretty easily, I think. Only one year with next to no real money. Stepan isn't really on the list of things I'm worried about (other than the obvious fact he's being over-played).
I'm not a big fan of Stepan because of the way RT utilizes him. I think he is a very valuable player as a 3C and a PK'er. I would keep Stepan over Richardson or Soda. But, if RT keeps on giving him crazy TOI, I want him traded. The problem, as mentioned is Stepan's cap hit, and that muddles the water.
 

Jakey53

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Aug 27, 2011
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I don’t like Tocchet’s ability to modify his approach to better reflect the roster he has. He’s highly regarded by media but I’m willing to move on when the new GM comes in. Clean house and put “their guy” As coach. Alternative b (which is probably more likely) is the play out of the lame duck season. Sacrificial lamb play.

our roster has issues. Yes we need C but we need to get less soft small skill guys and add some heart and grit. We have some nice pieces but I think at least one of Schmaltz and Hino need to go. I’m already resigned to Hall not being re-signed (unlike the owner I have zero faith in his “deal-maker”). I like pieces of the organization but Hjarlmarsson, Stepan, Grabner won’t be on roster by next seasons end IMO. It’s not doom and gloom entirely but it depends so much on potential (hasn’t done it and may never do it again) but I don’t think we can move forward unless Hayton and Keller are both what we expected them to be.
You forgot Gogo and Demers. Our forward mix is wrong, that can be fixed with a trade or two. I'm more worried after next year about our D. OEL, Chick, Soderstrom and then who?
 

Mosby

Salt Lake Bound
Feb 16, 2012
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We need to see something from Capobianco next season. Can he be a reliable bottom pairing guy and eat 12 or so minutes a night? Ideally we're also looking for Soderstrom to make the immediate jump to the NHL and handle ~15 mins. If those things happen, you can have the below framework entering 2021-22:

OEL - x
Chychrun - x
Capobianco - Soderstrom

Maybe bump up Soderstrom, but we'd need a couple of D. There is nothing else coming in Tucson and this is where the POJ and Bahl exits hurt us (and Westerlund not becoming anything). Lots of variables to who could be UFA in summer 2021, but right now the list is headlined by guys like Hamilton and Larsson. Bleak after that, so we may have to look at trades. This may be more reason to look at signing someone like Barrie this coming offseason.
 

rt

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I'm not a big fan of Stepan because of the way RT utilizes him. I think he is a very valuable player as a 3C and a PK'er. I would keep Stepan over Richardson or Soda. But, if RT keeps on giving him crazy TOI, I want him traded. The problem, as mentioned is Stepan's cap hit, and that muddles the water.
You can’t use him in a limited checking/PK role because he has a 6.5m caphit. You have to trade him.
 

Mosby

Salt Lake Bound
Feb 16, 2012
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On the D subject, I suspect Hammer will get through next season before he’s totally broken down. I’d be open to re-signing Goligoski to play a bottom-4 role at lesser cost. His game should age fine.
 
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Jakey53

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Aug 27, 2011
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On the D subject, I suspect Hammer will get through next season before he’s totally broken down. I’d be open to re-signing Goligoski to play a bottom-4 role at lesser cost. His game should age fine.
I move on.
 

hbk

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You forgot Gogo and Demers. Our forward mix is wrong, that can be fixed with a trade or two. I'm more worried after next year about our D. OEL, Chick, Soderstrom and then who?
Well I really liked Oesterle last season. That guy can play. The Oesterle that showed up this regular season was a fringe NHLer at times.
 

Jamieh

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Apr 25, 2012
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You can’t use him in a limited checking/PK role because he has a 6.5m caphit. You have to trade him.
Didn't you suggest a term to me last week that explains perfectly why salary should not be considered when assigning positions?
 

rt

The Kinder, Gentler Version
May 13, 2004
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Didn't you suggest a term to me last week that explains perfectly why salary should not be considered when assigning positions?
They way the team is constructed is a critical consideration. This isn’t the same has have too many great centers and they have to pay them all.
 

BUX7PHX

Registered User
Jul 7, 2011
5,581
1,350
We need to see something from Capobianco next season. Can he be a reliable bottom pairing guy and eat 12 or so minutes a night? Ideally we're also looking for Soderstrom to make the immediate jump to the NHL and handle ~15 mins. If those things happen, you can have the below framework entering 2021-22:

OEL - x
Chychrun - x
Capobianco - Soderstrom

Maybe bump up Soderstrom, but we'd need a couple of D. There is nothing else coming in Tucson and this is where the POJ and Bahl exits hurt us (and Westerlund not becoming anything). Lots of variables to who could be UFA in summer 2021, but right now the list is headlined by guys like Hamilton and Larsson. Bleak after that, so we may have to look at trades. This may be more reason to look at signing someone like Barrie this coming offseason.

I think you bump up Soderstrom up to either our #1 or 2 RD (I think that he is capable of slotting there as the SHL helped prepare him so young to handle that), we may have a player or two that can squeeze into that last spot. Then it is just a matter of picking up a #1 or 2 RD.

Crotty, Emberson, and Dineen could fill that role. Maybe Gross, too. If Callahan had to play the right side as a lefty, but one who protected Capobianco, that is also a possibility. I think we have 1 3rd pairing D amongst one of those 4 right handed players, but yes, RD will be a hole and I think that if we see Hjalmarsson look decent in 20-21 season, we may bring him back on a 1 year deal. Nothing wrong with being a solid defensive defenseman, in that regard.
 

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