Does the team have a coaching or player issue?

[Fuhrious]

I think I remember saying this a few months ago, but I feel like Stepan would (still be?) a fan favorite if he wasnt being over/mis-utilized by the Coyotes coaching staff...

 

[_Del_]

And if it comes to it Stepan can be moved pretty easily, I think. Only one year with next to no real money. Stepan isn't really on the list of things I'm worried about (other than the obvious fact he's being over-played).

 

[rt]

And if it comes to it Stepan can be moved pretty easily, I think. Only one year with next to no real money. Stepan isn't really on the list of things I'm worried about (other than the obvious fact he's being over-played).

If he’s not overplayed he’s overpaid. The salary cap is a real concern and his cap hit to in-game value ratio is the 2nd worst on the team behind Phil Kessel. Stepan has to go.

 

[MayDayMayDay]

I said both.

I don't think we're at the point of needing a full-blown rebuild. But a mid-2010s Philly style retool is certainly in order, especially after the collapse we saw once injuries hit.

So many of our problems are between our ears, and that falls on Tocc. But we're also carrying some dead weight around that should be turned over to recoup some draft choices and restock the cupboards.

My offseason priorities (in order of easiest to hardest to attain IMO):

1. Hire a GM with a clear vision, who can identify players we already have and players we need to fulfill it, and make shrewd, astute but aggressive moves to get there.

2. Get a real coach. Lavy, Babs, someone who can remove paint and get these guys never taking a shift off.

3. Recoup draft picks with the likes of Stepan, Kessel, Goligoski, etc.

4. Find a #1 center.

 

[PainForShane]

I think what frustrates me the most about the larger situation is...

As fans, we see a certain percentage of the larger whole, and I have no misconceptions that what we see is more than a tiny percentage at that. That being the case, it strikes me that "average fan X" could watch this team over the course of this past season and feel like the coaching staff has been ineffective to the point of deserving of termination. The team's "attitude" or "motor" on the ice, the seeming lack of any real tactical nous, the petulance in post-game interviews, and surface-level analysis of relatively basic usage statistics all seem to stick out like a sore thumb to Joe Blow fan. Watch almost any other game this "post-season" and tell me you dont see a night and day difference between the intensity, the organization and the tactics being employed by virually every other team in this league.

Yet we're CONSTANTLY bombarded by comments that "the only thing the team seems to have done right the last X years is hire RT" and "the players love playing for RT" and "the organization thinks RT is the guy to lead them to success" from players, the FO, the media...

I'm not the sort of person who "has to be right all the time", so...please...tell me...WHERE IS THE DISCONNECT? I want to understand, truly I do.

Tocchet and Chayka got a pass this long because a) they’re nice to the media and b) the casual fans think this team is good because we’ve recently been improving every year. The casual fan doesn’t watch regular season games or know what icing is, doesn’t know how many lines are on a team etc. I mean, to a casual fan we’ve been getting better every year so why wouldn’t we keep getting better?

I don’t agree of course. The casual fan doesn’t understand the salary cap and how we’re up against it right now. But that’s how I make sense of all of this

 

[hbk]

I don’t like Tocchet’s ability to modify his approach to better reflect the roster he has. He’s highly regarded by media but I’m willing to move on when the new GM comes in. Clean house and put “their guy” As coach. Alternative b (which is probably more likely) is the play out of the lame duck season. Sacrificial lamb play.

our roster has issues. Yes we need C but we need to get less soft small skill guys and add some heart and grit. We have some nice pieces but I think at least one of Schmaltz and Hino need to go. I’m already resigned to Hall not being re-signed (unlike the owner I have zero faith in his “deal-maker”). I like pieces of the organization but Hjarlmarsson, Stepan, Grabner won’t be on roster by next seasons end IMO. It’s not doom and gloom entirely but it depends so much on potential (hasn’t done it and may never do it again) but I don’t think we can move forward unless Hayton and Keller are both what we expected them to be.

 

[Fuhrious]

Tocchet and Chayka got a pass this long because a) they’re nice to the media and b) the casual fans think this team is good because we’ve recently been improving every year. The casual fan doesn’t watch regular season games or know what icing is, doesn’t know how many lines are on a team etc. I mean, to a casual fan we’ve been getting better every year so why wouldn’t we keep getting better?

I don’t agree of course. The casual fan doesn’t understand the salary cap and how we’re up against it right now. But that’s how I make sense of all of this

I dont know that I agree...what you're describing is considerably less savvy than what I personally consider a "casual fan". A "casual fan" absolutely knows basic rules like "icing", to my mind. A "casual fan" can certainly watch a handful of hockey games and readily identify which teams look more cohesive, more motivated, more organized. I'm not sure what I could label the sort of fan you describe, but it's a tier or two below what I consider "casual".

 

[Mosby]

I’d like to win in the playoffs but it’s hard to ignore the Laf appeal. Basically the same player as Hall for 1/10th the price.

 

[Mosby]

I don’t like Tocchet’s ability to modify his approach to better reflect the roster he has. He’s highly regarded by media but I’m willing to move on when the new GM comes in. Clean house and put “their guy” As coach. Alternative b (which is probably more likely) is the play out of the lame duck season. Sacrificial lamb play.

our roster has issues. Yes we need C but we need to get less soft small skill guys and add some heart and grit. We have some nice pieces but I think at least one of Schmaltz and Hino need to go. I’m already resigned to Hall not being re-signed (unlike the owner I have zero faith in his “deal-maker”). I like pieces of the organization but Hjarlmarsson, Stepan, Grabner won’t be on roster by next seasons end IMO. It’s not doom and gloom entirely but it depends so much on potential (hasn’t done it and may never do it again) but I don’t think we can move forward unless Hayton and Keller are both what we expected them to be.

I’d like to trade Hino but I’d be perfectly fine not even qualifying him. So best option is trade him, then release him, then bring him back. Just a blah player and poor fit.

 

[_Del_]

Vinnie is fine, but he's going to want more money than we can/should give him. I don't think he'll be back.

 

[MayDayMayDay]

I’d like to win in the playoffs but it’s hard to ignore the Laf appeal. Basically the same player as Hall for 1/10th the price.

Lafreniere is better in my opinion. He does a lot of the same things well as Hall (forechecking, physicality, skating, stick usage, willingness and ability to get back and defend with intensity). But Lafreniere has an element of playmaking/passing that is already elite. I think he's already as good a passer of the puck as a Backstrom or Kuznetsov. His vision and anticipation are THAT good.

EDIT: To clarify and contextualize, I think Laf is a better prospect with higher ceiling than Hall was coming out.

 

[PainForShane]

I dont know that I agree...what you're describing is considerably less savvy than what I personally consider a "casual fan". A "casual fan" absolutely knows basic rules like "icing", to my mind. A "casual fan" can certainly watch a handful of hockey games and readily identify which teams look more cohesive, more motivated, more organized. I'm not sure what I could label the sort of fan you describe, but it's a tier or two below what I consider "casual".

That’s fine — I guess then by your definition I would say most fans in AZ are less than casual. Going to the games there’s a big difference between fan knowledge when we play against a Canadian / original six team (actual fans) and a random weekday game against Anaheim (whatever ‘less than casual’ is)

Two anecdotes (both 100% non exaggerated)
1) the guy who has sets next to me is a dentist, he works a lot, comes to maybe ten games a year, sells the rest and basically breaks even. We played Edm during the week, his buddy was telling him that Connor was a future superstar / the next Gretzky. This guy never heard of McD and didn’t believe his friend. He kept saying, “who? 97? 97? Hmmm.” I think this was last year, McDavid was certainly a dominant forward at this point

2) Game against Vegas, someone’s there on a date, couple was certainly nice enough. We’re on the PK and one of our guys breaks a stick on the far side of the bench, the guy stands up and starts yelling “Go get a stick! You’re useless without a stick!” Girlfriend joins him now we have two ppl yelling at our own player to get a stick while Vegas has PP position in our zone.

And these are people who go to games / pay for seats (lower bowl 3 rows back from the glass, face values around $60 / game). Shudder to think about the people watching at home who are getting their knowledge from hockey insider Tyson Nash

 

[Fuhrious]

That’s fine — I guess then by your definition I would say most fans in AZ are less than casual. Going to the games there’s a big difference between fan knowledge when we play against a Canadian / original six team (actual fans) and a random weekday game against Anaheim (whatever ‘less than casual’ is)

Two anecdotes (both 100% non exaggerated)
1) the guy who has sets next to me is a dentist, he works a lot, comes to maybe ten games a year, sells the rest and basically breaks even. We played Edm during the week, his buddy was telling him that Connor was a future superstar / the next Gretzky. This guy never heard of McD and didn’t believe his friend. He kept saying, “who? 97? 97? Hmmm.” I think this was last year, McDavid was certainly a dominant forward at this point

2) Game against Vegas, someone’s there on a date, couple was certainly nice enough. We’re on the PK and one of our guys breaks a stick on the far side of the bench, the guy stands up and starts yelling “Go get a stick! You’re useless without a stick!” Girlfriend joins him now we have two ppl yelling at our own player to get a stick while Vegas has PP position in our zone.

And these are people who go to games / pay for seats (lower bowl 3 rows back from the glass, face values around $60 / game). Shudder to think about the people watching at home who are getting their knowledge from hockey insider Tyson Nash

I think a lot (most?) teams have fans like those, to be honest. I grew up in Michigan, and have similar stories from going to Red Wings games in "Hockeytown", of all places. Not completely discounting what you say, as I know the Phoenix area is pretty well known for having a very casual attitude about it's local professional sports teams.

 

[Neighborhood Coyote]

That’s fine — I guess then by your definition I would say most fans in AZ are less than casual. Going to the games there’s a big difference between fan knowledge when we play against a Canadian / original six team (actual fans) and a random weekday game against Anaheim (whatever ‘less than casual’ is)

Two anecdotes (both 100% non exaggerated)
1) the guy who has sets next to me is a dentist, he works a lot, comes to maybe ten games a year, sells the rest and basically breaks even. We played Edm during the week, his buddy was telling him that Connor was a future superstar / the next Gretzky. This guy never heard of McD and didn’t believe his friend. He kept saying, “who? 97? 97? Hmmm.” I think this was last year, McDavid was certainly a dominant forward at this point

2) Game against Vegas, someone’s there on a date, couple was certainly nice enough. We’re on the PK and one of our guys breaks a stick on the far side of the bench, the guy stands up and starts yelling “Go get a stick! You’re useless without a stick!” Girlfriend joins him now we have two ppl yelling at our own player to get a stick while Vegas has PP position in our zone.

And these are people who go to games / pay for seats (lower bowl 3 rows back from the glass, face values around $60 / game). Shudder to think about the people watching at home who are getting their knowledge from hockey insider Tyson Nash

Point 1... yea that guy probably doesn't pay enough attention to hockey clearly, haha. Definitely less than casual.

Point 2... If you're using that to say those 2 fans are "less than casual" or casual even... I'd disagree. I would say there is enough reason to debate whether a player without a stick on the PK should get one or not. For all intents, it's now 5 on 3 instead of just 5 on 4 and he IS useless without his stick on a PK. So much pk work is done with the stick that it's a huge disadvantage. So, regardless of if you agree or not I'd contend that, based on that anecdote, they are at LEAST moderately knowledgeable.

 

[_Del_]

If he’s not overplayed he’s overpaid. The salary cap is a real concern and his cap hit to in-game value ratio is the 2nd worst on the team behind Phil Kessel. Stepan has to go.

I hate to break this to you, but unless the new/interim GM has a miracle off season with a lot of moves, next season is a lost cause. I agree that Step is too high a hit. I suspect he'll end up in Ottawa or Buffalo as a stop gap. But I also wouldn't be shocked to see him back to start the season. Regardless, he shouldn't be hard to move. That's not "what I want to see", just reality.

We've painted ourselves into a corner at the cap with several guys with high hits and negative or near-zero value. I doubt there's an Extreme Makeover: Coyotes edition this year. Not just cap, but I bet almost everyteam in the league will be looking to cut salary.

Next year at tdl and off-season when almost all the contracts are expiring, Phil's only will have one-year left, new GM settled in, expansion draft, etc is when the magic will (hopefully) happen.

Next year, we'll just suck again barring some major surprise development. Maybe Soderstrom challenges Chych for best defenseman, Hayton and Jenik are the real deal, etc, but otherwise, we're just headed back towards filling out the roster with NHL/AHL tweeners. It's going to look almost exactly like this year's roster minus Hall, Raanta, Soderberg, Vinnie, and maybe Stepan. They'll get replaced internally or with tweeners to keep us below $70M real cash.

 

[PainForShane]

I think a lot (most?) teams have fans like those, to be honest. I grew up in Michigan, and have similar stories from going to Red Wings games in "Hockeytown", of all places. Not completely discounting what you say, as I know the Phoenix area is pretty well known for having a very casual attitude about it's local professional sports teams.

Do fans like this pay to go to games though? Sure if you’re watching at a bar somewhere fine, but if you’re paying to go to a lower bowl seat against edm I would think you’d know who Connor McDavid is. All the Detroit fans I’ve met are great / understand the game and all come to the game wearing Datsyuk, Zetterberg or Yzerman jerseys.

To your main question though, I honestly think casual interest in our team (or less than that) is the main reason our media doesn’t hold our execs accountable. Most of the people here don’t understand the game of hockey, those who do are usually transplants and fans of other teams. We do not live in Toronto or even Hockeytown

 

[rt]

I hate to break this to you, but unless the new/interim GM has a miracle off season with a lot of moves, next season is a lost cause. I agree that Step is too high a hit. I suspect he'll end up in Ottawa or Buffalo as a stop gap. But I also wouldn't be shocked to see him back to start the season. Regardless, he shouldn't be hard to move. That's not "what I want to see", just reality.

We've painted ourselves into a corner at the cap with several guys with high hits and negative or near-zero value. I doubt there's an Extreme Makeover: Coyotes edition this year. Not just cap, but I bet almost everyteam in the league will be looking to cut salary.

Next year at tdl and off-season when almost all the contracts are expiring, Phil's only will have one-year left, new GM settled in, expansion draft, etc is when the magic will (hopefully) happen.

Next year, we'll just suck again barring some major surprise development. Maybe Soderstrom challenges Chych for best defenseman, Hayton and Jenik are the real deal, etc, but otherwise, we're just headed back towards filling out the roster with NHL/AHL tweeners. It's going to look almost exactly like this year's roster minus Hall, Raanta, Soderberg, Vinnie, and maybe Stepan. They'll get replaced internally or with tweeners to keep us below $70M real cash.

We aren’t really painted into a corner if we can move Raanta and Stepan for a no cap return (to Detroit or Ottawa) That’s over 10m cleared up.

 

[_Del_]

We aren’t really painted into a corner if we can move Raanta and Stepan for a no cap return

Good luck. We'll probably take 100% of Raanta's cap back with a similar iffy deal. Stepan trade will still take a warm body back. Probably 80% of teams are looking at a cap crunch of some sort right now. A handful of teams with cap space are going to be busy taking calls from other teams looking to desperately move cap. No reason for Ottawa or Detroit to do us a pure favour.

 

[hbk]

Vinnie is fine, but he's going to want more money than we can/should give him. I don't think he'll be back.

Not based on this years #’s. He will sign QA.

 

[rt]

Good luck. We'll probably take 100% of Raanta's cap back with a similar iffy deal. Stepan trade will still take a warm body back. Probably 80% of teams are looking at a cap crunch of some sort right now. A handful of teams with cap space are going to be busy taking calls from other teams looking to desperately move cap. No reason for Ottawa or Detroit to do us a pure favour.

It's not a pure favor. Both players can help those teams significantly. Ottawa and Detroit have to be more competitive than they were last season. Especially as they incorporate young talent into the lineup. Getting run over year over year and breeding a losing culture won't help and will put them into the Edmonton 10 year cycle. The very reason we acquired Stepan and Raanta was to help shelter young players and help us stay in more competitive games. Both players can still help with this. Both players are EXCELLENT value in terms of salary. Four million is an absolute steal for this pair. If your team is not concerned with the cap, there's no reason not to.

You could argue that they could take bad players that are overpaid just to get draft picks attached. At some point, though, collecting every draft pick you can while losing 60 games a season has to stop. They're at a point where they need these young assets to play in NHL games where they don't just get run over.

Plus, at the TDL they can just retain the max on both and get some great assets anyway.

 

[PainForShane]

Point 2... If you're using that to say those 2 fans are "less than casual" or casual even... I'd disagree. I would say there is enough reason to debate whether a player without a stick on the PK should get one or not. For all intents, it's now 5 on 3 instead of just 5 on 4 and he IS useless without his stick on a PK. So much pk work is done with the stick that it's a huge disadvantage. So, regardless of if you agree or not I'd contend that, based on that anecdote, they are at LEAST moderately knowledgeable.

I could have described this better but if you saw how the play was developing no one posting on these boards would ever suggest that, trust me on this. 2nd period (Eg long change), stick broke on far side, vegas noticed so immediately started driving down low. No one would ever tell the D to skate away from the guy on the doorstep for a good 10 seconds which is the time he’d need to get back from the bench. Steal a stick from a fwd? Sure that makes sense. But that’s not what these guys were arguing for. Our guy ended up blocking the shot with his body and hand passing up to the forward who cleared, then he went off for a change.

I have ten or twenty anecdotes that show severe lack of knowledge, very few of them with fans of established teams (the McD guy was local). Have had some GREAT conversations with fans of other teams which is why I think Coyotes fans tend to be more casual than other fans.

And yeah, that ‘less than casual’ (we need a new word for this) imo is part of why we don’t hold our media accountable and part of why our media loves Tocchet and Chayka so much.

Unless someone has another idea? To me this makes sense but maybe I’m missing something

 

[_Del_]

Not based on this years #’s. He will sign QA.

Is he worth the qualifier?

 

[_Del_]

You could argue that they could take bad players that are overpaid just to get draft picks attached.

Or just other decent players on bad contracts that can help them. We don't have the league's only supply of overpaid decent players (even if it sometimes feels like it)

 

[hbk]

Is he worth the qualifier?

If you fear arbitration then no. It also depends on what other roster moves you want to do.

 

[rt]

Or just other decent players on bad contracts that can help them. We don't have the league's only supply of overpaid decent players (even if it sometimes feels like it)

These are decent players on great contracts that can help them. That's obviously better.

This is unique in that these “cap-dumps” are still very effective players that worth at least twice their actual cash compensation. Ottawa/Detroit can’t take players with high cash numbers and wouldn’t be as wise to take on traditional cap dumps that are now bad players, worth less than their actual compensation.

Ottawa/Detroit gets Stepan and Raanta. I’m sure neither would select Detroit/Ottawa if they were UFA. I’m sure both would get UFA contracts worth On average twice what they’ll earn this season.

That makes this good value, in and of itself, for any team not spending to the cap. Arizona gave up Anthony DeAngelo and the 7th overall pick for these guys three years ago. Ottawa/Detroit should be thrilled to get them for free.

Over the last three seasons, there isn't a single goalie in the NHL (at least 50 total games played) with a higher combined SV% than Antti Raanta. There are only 5 NHL goalies (with at least 50gp in that time) with a better GAA in that span. These guys are tailor-made to help mitigate the mistakes skilled young players make. To help support them and keep them from getting too badly burned. Edmonton failed to insulate their young stars for many years. And it cost them dearly. Ottawa/Detroit would be wise to avoid this trap. These young players need to learn how to win in the NHL.

It’s a good deal for Ottawa/Detroit because it costs them nothing. They get the support, and mentorship from these vets for a season. Given that they have expiring contracts, they can decide to flip them for assets at the deadline, ride out the season with them, or sign them to cheaper contracts than they’re on.

This isn’t a typical dump of useless players. Ottawa/Detroit don’t need draft pick right now anyway. They have too many in this draft already (yes, that's a thing, they won't be able to sign them all). They can actually get picks later. Teams will actually want these guys at the deadline. Because they’re good players. And they’re on expiring deals. And they can retain salary.

Plus, Free agents (or guys with NTC/NMC) have to be willing to choose Detroit/Ottawa over one of the other 29 teams. The Coyotes players don't have a choice. Additionally, they're all on expiring deals. UFAs may require multi-year contracts.