Does the Hall of Fame still hold significance to you?

[hamzarocks]

Every hockey fan should try to go at least once.

I went about 20 years ago. Is it still in that old bank building? From the outside it's an old bank but if I remember correctly we had to go in through like an unground shopping mall. At at the end of the mall where you expect to see like a JC Penney instead its the freakin Hockey Hall of Fame.

The trophy room is very cool. I remember they had some interactive stuff where you could shoot pucks at a goalie on a screen, but the sticks were all full length so a little hard to shoot. That's all I remember.

Yeah still in same place

I walk by it whenever I go to work rather than wfh

Always wanted to go in, but not sure if its a place to go by yourself to have fun.

None of my good friends watch hockey sadly so dont have an excuse to go out here with them one time

 

[HolyHagelin]

As for the question of quality in terms of inductees:

I think that perhaps certain forwards who played during a high scoring era and were essentially good first line forwards but not franchise or superstar players were inducted because their careers were not evaluated properly.

Cross-era comparisons, evaluations and adjustments can be difficult. If you ever check out the History of Hockey board, we debate constantly about how to best compare players across eras. It can be tricky in some ways...

But it can be done better than the HHOF induction commit has done it at times.


In a given era, you can expect one transcendent talent or two.

Then you have your franchise players and guys who may not quite be franchise players but are superstar level players that casual fans have heard of and that people go to see and then you have your good first liners who may have one year or two of being big stars in the League.

When players from the last category are mistaken for franchise or superstar level players due to statistics that look really good in comparison to stats from lower-scoring eras, then you get inductees who were very good players but were never among the truly elite (or were only at the level for a season or two).

From recent times we have these players:

Generational: McDavid, Crosby, arguably Ovechkin.

Franchise players: Malkin, MacKinnon, Matthews, Kucherov, Kane, Barkov

Superstars: Rantanen, Kaprizov, Pastrnak, Getzlaf, Modano, Kopitar, Zetterberg, Sundin

Good first liners: Parise, Perry, Marleau, Tanguay, Hall, Voracek, Pacioretty


Players like Joe Mullen, Dino Ciccarelli, Dave Andreychuk and probably Joe Nieuwendyk and Mike Gartner (who are all in the Hall of Fame) were actually more in the class of players like Perry and Hall than in the superstar class but were inducted because of statistics that look like superstar numbers in eras like the Dead Puck Era and the 2010 to 2017 low-scoring era (that peaked in 2015 when an 87 point player won the Art Ross). Because of these inductees, people can now make arguments that players like Perry, Marleau and perhaps Hall wouldn't be too out of place in the Hockey Hall of Fame.


This isn't to suggest that 1970s/1980s "compiler" types are the only controversial selections. The HHOF includes guys like Dick Duff from older eras, defensemen like Housley and defensive specialists like Carbonneau and Gainey as well.



I don't know about that. There are threads asking if certain players should or will be inducted constantly.

I’m sorry, *arguably* Ovechkin?

At least you decided to torpedo your credibility in chapter 1 of that novel of a post.

 

[hamzarocks]

I’m sorry, *arguably* Ovechkin?

At least you decided to torpedo your credibility in chapter 1 of that novel of a post.

Neither Crosby or OV are generational

Mcdavid came and showed that

They are aboe the franchise tier but below Mcdavid

Kucherov, Mack and Matthews can enter that Crosby and OV tier though its very unlikely

Mcdavid is in a tier with the big 4 only

 

[HolyHagelin]

Neither Crosby or OV are generational

Mcdavid came and showed that

They are aboe the franchise tier but below Mcdavid

Kucherov, Mack and Matthews can enter that Crosby and OV tier though its very unlikely

Mcdavid is in a tier with the big 4 only

Right, the all time goal scoring leader, with the most 30, 40, and 50 goal seasons, and the most rockets, is not a generational talent.

GTFOH.

OV has the most seasons all time of every number of goals+ from 28-52, IIRC (might only be through 50 someone posted it when he got his 30th in the OV thread) and played in the DPE2.0.

The guy who has all the scoring records isnt generational, what’s next, Roy wasn’t really that good in the playoffs?

Pass it this way man, that must be good shit.

 

[hamzarocks]

Right, the all time goal scoring leader, with the most 30, 40, and 50 goal seasons, and the most rockets, is not a generational talent.

GTFOH.

OV has the most seasons all time of every number of goals+ from 28-52, IIRC (might only be through 50 someone posted it when he got his 30th in the OV thread) and played in the DPE2.0.

The guy who has all the scoring records isnt generational, what’s next, Roy wasn’t really that good in the playoffs?

Pass it this way man, that must be good shit.

OV is way to 1 dimensional

He has 1 ross, has been a non factor since 2010 besides 2015

Goal scoring doesnt make a player generational. Overall offensive abilities does

Mcdavid is generational. His career is going to be unmatchable by any player in this era. OV is being matched/challenged by Matthews

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

More than the Rock and Roll HoF , at least.

 

[HolyHagelin]

OV is way to 1 dimensional

He has 1 ross, has been a non factor since 2010 besides 2015

Goal scoring doesnt make a player generational. Overall offensive abilities does

Mcdavid is generational. His career is going to be unmatchable by any player in this era. OV is being matched/challenged by Matthews

Your delusion bubble has obviously been upcast at 9th level potency by a powerful wizard. You are allowed saving throws by consciously trying to break it though.

 

[wetcoast]

Or especially using Marleau as an example. No one has played more NHL games than him. He had 566 goals and almost 1,200 points. Say what you will about compilers, but he was a prominent player for two decades in the league and a part of hockey history.

I’m not going to be red faced arguing for Marleau to get in, but I’m also not going to second guess if he does either.

I'm 100% against Marleau making the HHOF but his potential inclusion and the inclusion of guys like Carbs and Lowe still won't prevent me from going and still recognizing the HHOF as the standard for excellence as far as NHL hockey goes even if they have mistakes of ommission.

 

[GlitchMarner]

I’m sorry, *arguably* Ovechkin?

At least you decided to torpedo your credibility in chapter 1 of that novel of a post.

I'm a pretty big fan actually.

I think at his best he was the best player in the League. I actually prefer his best seasons to Crosby's (who was injured during his peak). But in terms of overall ranking, I'd have Crosby slightly higher. I do think you can make a "better career" argument for Ovechkin depending on what you value and how you assess careers.

I just picked the one I rank a little higher as the generational player from that gen. To be honest, I am open to hearing the argument that neither is really generational and both are a tier above the next best class.

 

[DapperCam]

When I was younger I held all of the different sports hall of fames in very high esteem. They were the pinnacle of achievement in sport!

As I've aged I've realized that they are really just museums. Still neat, but basically on par with any other good museum I might visit.

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

Honestly as I get older and the NHL becomes more obviously just a vehicle sell ads, tickets, and merchandise the history and tradition have lost a ton of power to me. Gambling ads in particular have really cheapened the league for me.

 

[GOilers88]

sure, I don't really care about it all that much but it's not a total joke to me like the Baseball one has become either where it's missing some of the sports best players just because

i'd be interested in visiting it someday but only if I was nearby I wouldn't go out of my way to do so

Pete Rose continuing to be left out is an absolute travesty. Best hitter the game ever saw.

 

[Voight]

One of those is not like the others. I don't get the complaints about Carbonneau. One of the best defensive forwards of all-time who has both individual (Selkes) and team (2 cups) hardware.

He deserves it 100%

The issue with Carbonneau is if you're going to induct players like that, then why haven't Brind'Amour or Lehtinen been inducted? Even Mike Peca, he has 1 less Selke than Carbonneau but was arguably just as good as him at his peak.

Every hockey fan should try to go at least once.

I went about 20 years ago. Is it still in that old bank building? From the outside it's an old bank but if I remember correctly we had to go in through like an unground shopping mall. At at the end of the mall where you expect to see like a JC Penney instead its the freakin Hockey Hall of Fame.

The trophy room is very cool. I remember they had some interactive stuff where you could shoot pucks at a goalie on a screen, but the sticks were all full length so a little hard to shoot. That's all I remember.

Yup it's still there.

 

[Golden_Jet]

The hall is definitely worth visiting.

 

[Voight]

Or especially using Marleau as an example. No one has played more NHL games than him. He had 566 goals and almost 1,200 points. Say what you will about compilers, but he was a prominent player for two decades in the league and a part of hockey history.

I’m not going to be red faced arguing for Marleau to get in, but I’m also not going to second guess if he does either.

Marleau is the answer to a trivia question.

Prominent player might be a stretch. He was never among the best players in the league nor the best player on his team for very long. Hell, he only got the GP record because the Sharks did him. favour after years of loyalty.

 

[Artemi Panarin]

One of the many straws that broke the camels back will be when a guy like Patrick marleau makes it in.

Kevin Lowe has 431 in 1254 or 0.34 PPG even after playing for dynasty for years.

He makes Marleau look like Lindros in comparison.

 

[Toby91ca]

I went about 20 years ago. Is it still in that old bank building? From the outside it's an old bank but if I remember correctly we had to go in through like an unground shopping mall.

The old bank building that you see at street level is the "Great Hall" I referenced, that's where you'll see the Stanley Cup, all the other trophies and the plaques of each of the inducted members. But yeah, the main entrance and the rest of the hall of fame is in the underground. The underground is part of the "Path"....basically covers the entire financial district and more downtown. When I go into the office, the only time I go outside is when I leave my car in the train parking lot....I walk to the train and then I'm inside....get off training inside and walk through the Path right into my office.

 

[hamzarocks]

Marleau is the answer to a trivia question.

Prominent player might be a stretch. He was never among the best players in the league nor the best player on his team for very long. Hell, he only got the GP record because the Sharks did him. favour after years of loyalty.

Marleau was a worse player than Nylander is (peak and prime) and nylander has 0 shot at the hall of fame

Marleau is a disapointmebt for a 20A. He has 3-4 ppg years his whole career despite plenty of tine on dominant offensive teams

A huge choker as well everywhere he went come playoffs

He isnt even hallf of very good level

 

[SmytheKing]

I wonder how many folks who think people getting enshrined now aren't deserving are just falling victim to a form of recency bias as well as access?

Like, we think of these older players as legends...but we never saw them play. If we had them on TV and could watch every game they played over the course of their careers, would we still see them as legends? I mean, go look at the early classes of inductees and pick out the guys you KNOW belong in there. What's it based off of? Hearing about Howie Morenz? More, what about the guys you've never heard about? Graham Drinkwater? No one here can really say he "belongs" or "doesn't belong" any more than someone 100 years from now can say that about Kevin Lowe.

 

[HolyHagelin]

I'm a pretty big fan actually.

I think at his best he was the best player in the League. I actually prefer his best seasons to Crosby's (who was injured during his peak). But in terms of overall ranking, I'd have Crosby slightly higher. I do think you can make a "better career" argument for Ovechkin depending on what you value and how you assess careers.

I just picked the one I rank a little higher as the generational player from that gen. To be honest, I am open to hearing the argument that neither is really generational and both are a tier above the next best class.

You said 1-2 generational players per, then tried to squeeze the presumptive all time goals champion out of that categorization. That is just absurd.

 

[Elvis P]

Pete Rose continuing to be left out is an absolute travesty. Best hitter the game ever saw.

995.	Jason Heyward (15, 34)	.4097	6657	L
	James Loney (11)	.4097	5487	L
997.	Ernie Whitt (15)	.4096	4271	L
998.	Pete Rose (24)	.4093	15890	B

Yeah, the best hitter ever is 998th in SLG%.

 

[Toby91ca]

Or especially using Marleau as an example. No one has played more NHL games than him. He had 566 goals and almost 1,200 points. Say what you will about compilers, but he was a prominent player for two decades in the league and a part of hockey history.

I’m not going to be red faced arguing for Marleau to get in, but I’m also not going to second guess if he does either.

Oh, I'll definitely second guess if he gets in.

He has the games played record going for him, that does mean something, teams were willing to keep him around that long, that means something, but only means so much. Because he played all those games, he'll have some decent stats accumulated as well. He also had the Olympics argument.....getting on Team Canada is a pretty big achievement.

However, other than Olympics, he has no team achievements like a Stanley Cup and he has 0 individual awards, has never really been close to any either.

His best 5 finishes in points were 14, 18, 19, 19 and 29 (average of remaining 18 seasons is 141st)
His best 5 finishes in goals were 4, 6, 11, 11 and 21 (average of remaining 18 seasons is 104th).

During the years he played in the NHL, he's 6th in points, but that's a dumb stat to look at since it's totally biased to him....no other player would have played those same years, he didn't start his career and finish with others. No one (other than Thornton and Chara) were around for nearly as many games. During that period, he's 207th in PPG.

There is just no way these stats show HHOF to me. However, this is where I think the bar is lower than what I think it should be. I know when I was a kid, I always used to look at 500 goals and 1,000 points as the measuring stick, but that's also looking at careers of around 1,000 games as well....not 1,800.

 

[ValeriKamensky]

After case of Willie O’Ree? No, it doesn’t

 

[GlitchMarner]

You said 1-2 generational players per, then tried to squeeze the presumptive all time goals champion out of that categorization. That is just absurd.

I did say arguably Ovechkin...

I'd personally put them in the same tier as each other (either both generational or not). Others may say only one player per generation should be considered generational. Others still would be fine with having two (or perhaps even more) players from a generation having the designation.

 

[GOilers88]

995.	Jason Heyward (15, 34)	.4097	6657	L
	James Loney (11)	.4097	5487	L
997.	Ernie Whitt (15)	.4096	4271	L
998.	Pete Rose (24)	.4093	15890	B

Yeah, the best hitter ever is 998th in SLG%.

Yes, the all time hits leader is the best hitter ever. Unless you're actually going to argue Jason Heyward is better because of his slugging %.

In which case you should be barred from talking about baseball.

The only other guy that could reasonably have a case is Ty Cobb, but something tells me his slugging % isn't good enough for you to consider it.