Does Sullivan still have his job?

[Hell Yeah!!!]

The idea that Sullivan just magically became bad is a curious case to me. What changed.

For me comes down to three observable changes to consider.

1. The most important and impactful staff member, Rick Tocchet, left. How important was Tocchet to Sullys success.
2. The team noticeably has not displayed the level of "all-out" sacrifice to win as they did in the two cup wins.
3. The roster is different.

If one is a primary culprit, then those do not bode well for Sullivan regaining success.

If two is a primary culprit, then it seems unlikely to change (is it tied to #1) and does not bode well for Sullivan regaining success. Is he no longer able to motivate them. Are they collectively unmotivatable (Stanley Cup sacrifice motivation level). I think the answer is a combination of both and regardless of Sullivan outcome roster turnover is necessary.

If three is a primary culprit, then Sullivan is not the problem. For me, despite our misgivings on defense, I think the roster in aggregate should be delivering results better than we have, without a doubt.

I may be missing a significant change in my calculus, I considered adding "Murray playing out of his mind" but for me he played good enough to win with 2nd half of this year and playoffs. So 1+2+3 = Sully likelihood of delivering a Cup with this team or even a modified team with these primary ingredients is highly unlikely.

 

[Turin]

I don’t think you can discount the roster effect.

Last season the Penguins were a top 3 possession team in the NHL despite having a pretty bad October to January.

Add Johnson, subtract Schultz and this season they were something like 16th. Without Johnson on the ice they were much higher.

 

[Hell Yeah!!!]

I don’t think you can discount the roster effect.

Last season the Penguins were a top 3 possession team in the NHL despite having a pretty bad October to January.

Add Johnson, subtract Schultz and this season they were something like 16th. Without Johnson on the ice they were much higher.

Yes I think roster is an impact. But it is never straightforward.

For me I judge primarily on playoffs.

Schultz was there. They got swept.
In game one, Johnson was not there, Maatta was, they lost.

Small sample sizes, the roster could have been better, but Sullivan has more to work with than coaches that have done better than him (exhibit A: The guy who beat him)

 

[BeatenLikeRentedMule]

Since December (I crossed out October and November since Oct was a good month for Geno and November a really Bad month for the team overall), Geno played in 44 games out of 58 and the Pens won 64% of those games. In Feb, he missed 5 games and the team was 1-4 and in March to early April, he missed 8 games and the team went 4-4...therefore, the team was not better off with Geno out of the lineup...despite his “poor” season

Toward the last segment of the season they were playing good hockey and they didn't have Geno. He's likely not gonna be traded but I would consider it if a great offer emerged. And they were playing solid defense for a good stretch. The return of Geno and Letang actually made them a worse team at the end and into the playoffs.

Career stats for Geno are over 1.17 points per game but 2018-19 stats, Geno dropped to under 1.06 points per game. And was -25 this season while being +66 over his career.

SUMMARY

2018-19
Career
GP

68
852
G

21
391
A

51
611
PTS

72
1002
+/-

-25
66
PS

6.2
121.9
PIM

89
902
SH

187
2874
GWG

5
68

You can't deny he plays about 60 games a year, takes dumb retaliatory penalties. I see him do it over and over. You can't deny his production is beginning to decline (likely due to age along with the toll of injuries since Malkin has them every season, it would seem).

He has also spent almost 1.24 minutes per game in the penalty box on average this past season.

Either keep the core as they start aging until they're left with nothing left in the tank or do something now. If they play this core to their retirement, the Pens franchise will fall apart like 2002-2006.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Any coach you put in Sully's place is going to have his blueline act as the engine that drives the team. That's just the way it is. You saw this team get wholly dismantled by a strong forecheck simply because the blueline is incapable of playing hockey in today's NHL, outside of the Dumo-Letang pairing.

Nothing else matters unless we completely revamp that blueline corps. Trading Geno doesn't matter. Firing Sullivan doesn't matter. None of it matters when the blueline is what it is. The Canes don't have a better forward group than we have, they don't have a better goalie than we have. They just have a blueline infinitely better suited to play in today's speed/aggressive forecheck oriented style of hockey.

It's very simple. No coach will have any amount of meaningful success (playoffs) with this blueline. Sully, Laviolette, Babcock, Coach Q, whoever you want to put behind the bench.

 

[BeatenLikeRentedMule]

Any coach you put in Sully's place is going to have his blueline act as the engine that drives the team. That's just the way it is. You saw this team get wholly dismantled by a strong forecheck simply because the blueline is incapable of playing hockey in today's NHL, outside of the Dumo-Letang pairing.

Nothing else matters unless we completely revamp that blueline corps. Trading Geno doesn't matter. Firing Sullivan doesn't matter. None of it matters when the blueline is what it is. The Canes don't have a better forward group than we have, they don't have a better goalie than we have. They just have a blueline infinitely better suited to play in today's speed/aggressive forecheck oriented style of hockey.

It's very simple. No coach will have any amount of meaningful success (playoffs) with this blueline. Sully, Laviolette, Babcock, Coach Q, whoever you want to put behind the bench.

The issues on defense and a good 2nd line can be resolved faster if Geno and Letang are traded for 2-3 good two-way forwards, 2-3 defensemen that are above average. I'd take two Daleys over Letang. And the Pens get some draft picks to stay competitive in the post Crosby era.

This core will not win another championship. This isn't personal, this is fact.

So make the trades, determine if Sully can do something and find a new coach in December if the team is floundering.

The powerplay sucks as well. They don't shoot and pass the puck around for too long. That's on Sully.

 

[Hell Yeah!!!]

Any coach you put in Sully's place is going to have his blueline act as the engine that drives the team. That's just the way it is. You saw this team get wholly dismantled by a strong forecheck simply because the blueline is incapable of playing hockey in today's NHL, outside of the Dumo-Letang pairing.

Nothing else matters unless we completely revamp that blueline corps. Trading Geno doesn't matter. Firing Sullivan doesn't matter. None of it matters when the blueline is what it is. The Canes don't have a better forward group than we have, they don't have a better goalie than we have. They just have a blueline infinitely better suited to play in today's speed/aggressive forecheck oriented style of hockey.

It's very simple. No coach will have any amount of meaningful success (playoffs) with this blueline. Sully, Laviolette, Babcock, Coach Q, whoever you want to put behind the bench.

I wont discount the impact a defense can make, but I won't just say it sucks so we can't evaluate Sully. Again, look at the whole roster...no team has no flaws or weaknesses.

As for the Blueline.

In 2017 Playoffs

Dumoulin...still here.
Schultz...still here.
Daley. Gone...but we had Letang this playoffs. Letang > Daley.
Maata...still here.
Hainsey...is he really better than Gudbrandson?
Cole...yah JJ is a meaningful downgrade vs Cole. Who is the primary suspect as to why Cole is no longer here...

So yah the defense is different than the year we won the cup, its largely the same personnel + Letang/- Daley and minus the guy Sully shoved out.

 

[Andy99]

Toward the last segment of the season they were playing good hockey and they didn't have Geno. He's likely not gonna be traded but I would consider it if a great offer emerged. And they were playing solid defense for a good stretch. The return of Geno and Letang actually made them a worse team at the end and into the playoffs.

Career stats for Geno are over 1.17 points per game but 2018-19 stats, Geno dropped to under 1.06 points per game. And was -25 this season while being +66 over his career.

SUMMARY

2018-19
Career
GP

68
852
G

21
391
A

51
611
PTS

72
1002
+/-

-25
66
PS

6.2
121.9
PIM

89
902
SH

187
2874
GWG

5
68

You can't deny he plays about 60 games a year, takes dumb retaliatory penalties. I see him do it over and over. You can't deny his production is beginning to decline (likely due to age along with the toll of injuries since Malkin has them every season, it would seem).

He has also spent almost 1.24 minutes per game in the penalty box on average this past season.

Either keep the core as they start aging until they're left with nothing left in the tank or do something now. If they play this core to their retirement, the Pens franchise will fall apart like 2002-2006.

I don’t think you can say his production is declining after a year sample. He had 98 points last year and was at around 2 points per game the first month of the season...to say he’s on the decline is premature. Right now our PP and the team overall is better with him in the lineup. So unless the trade ends up in a very good to excellent 2C, the Pens can’t really afford to move him

 

[Jacob]

My opinion is that if Tocchet was that important his contributions would've been more noticeable under Johnston and now in Arizona.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Hainsey is better than JJ, Maatta or Gudbranson. Letang for Daley is what it is, but Schultz having a real partner is what he needs in order to function. He doesn't have that now, so he's ineffective.

The blueline sucks, flat out, no nice way to put it, and it's keeping this team from winning anything so long as it's constructed the way it is. That's not Sully's fault.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I wont discount the impact a defense can make, but I won't just say it sucks so we can't evaluate Sully. Again, look at the whole roster...no team has no flaws or weaknesses.

As for the Blueline.

In 2017 Playoffs

Dumoulin...still here.
Schultz...still here.
Daley. Gone...but we had Letang this playoffs. Letang > Daley.
Maata...still here.
Hainsey...is he really better than Gudbrandson?
Cole...yah JJ is a meaningful downgrade vs Cole. Who is the primary suspect as to why Cole is no longer here...

So yah the defense is different than the year we won the cup, its largely the same personnel + Letang/- Daley and minus the guy Sully shoved out.

Maatta wasn't the same this year. Injuries hampered him again. And when he was with healthy, he was without Schultz, who complements his game the best.

Johnson is a trainwreck. And while Hainsey is a boat anchor, he is substantially better than Gudbransson. The guy is 38 and had better production than Gudbransson. He also makes smarter decisions. I don't want either near my blueline, but if I have to choose, I take Hainsey in a heartbeat.

So when you have Johnson and Gudbransson dragging down two pairings, it's going to crush your blueline.

The Pens need a second pairing defenseman to play with Schultz and a third pairing defenseman to play with Pettersson.

But Rutherford loves this defense so nothing will change.

 

[BeatenLikeRentedMule]

I don’t think you can say his production is declining after a year sample. He had 98 points last year and was at around 2 points per game the first month of the season...to say he’s on the decline is premature. Right now our PP and the team overall is better with him in the lineup. So unless the trade ends up in a very good to excellent 2C, the Pens can’t really afford to move him

Considering he is reaching his mid 30s, a decline in production is going to be inevitable. All the injuries don't help much either.

This team thinks they don't need to play defense. Forwards think they can get away with blind passes and be out of position.

Because of their talent, they could get away with it. This season has shown they no longer can. I'm talking about a season they nearly missed the playoffs and were out of contention at points.

Unless this postseason is an aberration, it seems like the superstar era is over. I would prefer a move away from that and have stars like the Bruins who play solid defense and can still score.

This team can play defense but choose not to. The Bylsma 2011 team was fully committed when Crosby and Geno were injured.

As for the PP, it's god awful. Players aren't moving and they pass the puck for over a minute instead of taking advantage of the increased space, finding the right guy to shoot. Just like their defense, this team makes everything more complicated then it needs to be.

 

[DanielPlainview]

I mean, the team that swept the Pens got swept by a team that, player for player, doesn't match the Pens talent at all. That tells us the coach isn't getting the most out of his roster. I don't want to hear about JR not getting the perfect players for Sullivan's system. That's not his job. It's Sullivan's job to figure out how to best utilize the players he has. Good coaches adjust their system to the players, bad coaches stubbornly stick to their system no matter who is on the roster.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I mean, the team that swept the Pens got swept by a team that, player for player, doesn't match the Pens talent at all. That tells us the coach isn't getting the most out of his roster. I don't want to hear about JR not getting the perfect players for Sullivan's system. That's not his job. It's Sullivan's job to figure out how to best utilize the players he has. Good coaches adjust their system to the players, bad coaches stubbornly stick to their system no matter who is on the roster.

This is the dumbest take, and the one I have most issue with. Sure, bad coaches can undermine good rosters, but this roster has a blueline that's hot garbage, Geno has no legitimate scoring line wingers, and we've got two expensive wingers with no lines that are a good fit. This ain't a coaching problem. This is a roster composition problem. I ask again; give me specifics as to how Sullivan should adjust his style or system to get the best out of guys like JJ, Maatta, Gudbranson, and even Schultz, who was a shadow of himself (because he needs a substantial partner in order to function). How does Sullivan get guys like Phil, Horny and Geno to produce more than like half a dozen ES goals between them over the course of like 45 games? These arguments are just people chanting buzzwords like "Adjustments! System!" with no depth. Sully's TOI distribution and line combos are annoying, but that's true with any and every coach out there. That's just facts. There isn't a coach out there that doesn't do the kind of stuff Sully does.

The only issue I have with Sully is that he might have lost the room. That happens when a guy is an authoritarian, no nonsense, "shut up and do your job" kind of guy, particularly when his roster is garbage and losing games, but he's probably still preaching his mantra despite guys being physically incapable of modern day hockey. That doesn't mean he's not saying the right things, or putting the best approach in place. You think Sully's telling JJ to play like an idiot? "Okay, Olli, go out there and skate like a hungover 50 year old in a beer league." How do we best deploy a blueline that's as immobile and unable to move pucks out of danger and up to an attacking state like ours? Trap like crazy? Collapse everyone down and play a prevent defense all game? Anyone remember Mike Johnston? Remember what that style does to your ability to score goals, or get the most out of premier hockey players like Sid, Geno, and Jake? It also does nothing to solve the deer in the headlights issue everyone on our blueline deals with under an aggressive forecheck (outside of Dumo-Letang, who were miserable in their own right this spring). We need guys that can skate, as well as be able to move pucks proficiently. Dumo and Letang are fine. Petts, in my eyes, is a bottom pairing guy (a solid one, but still) right now. JJ, Maatta, Gudbranson are all hot garbage. Schultz is a fraction of the player he can be without a substantial partner. The blueline is the team's engine in today's NHL. If you can't deal with an aggressive forecheck and you can't get pucks out of danger and up to your forwards quickly, you're absolutely done. This team is absolute proof of that. The Hurricanes don't have an insane group of forwards, certainly not better than the guys we have, but their blueline is in another universe from ours. The difference on the blueline and the impact that has is painfully obvious when you look at how the Isles fared against both teams.

If he's lost the room--which is a legit discussion as opposed to this crap like "Adjust! Employ a system to best suit players that don't belong in the NHL like JJ and Maatta!"--then we should be keeping a keen eye out for coaches who would do well with our base foundation of players. This team first and foremost still needs to replace JR, find a stud #3 blueliner, two scoring line wingers, it needs to dump JJ, Maatta and Gudbranson while simultaneously removing and replacing Phil and Horny. To fire Sully is a "I want my pound of flesh" move. It's stupid. It's nonsense. Sully isn't perfect, but he's no Bylsma, he's no Desjerdins, he's no Hakstol, Johnston, Tony Granato, Boudreau, etc., etc., etc.

But yeah, those darned adjustments. Put Scotty Bowman in Sully's spot and this team fails. Babcock, Coach Q, whoever you want. This roster is trash outside of like 10 guys. We barely made the playoffs because of Herculean efforts from Sid, Jake, Letang and Murray.

There are problems, and there are many, but Sully is faaaaar down the list. To send him packing just because you want to sling mud in any direction is crazy. It's almost as though we didn't just go through two witless, idiot coaches before Sully. People forget what an actually bad coach is capable of.

This is the same kind of reasoning that got Gallant fired in Florida. Oops, turns out he's a really good coach and can do well with a roster that's built properly.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Complete and utter nonsense.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Complete and utter nonsense.

Do enlighten me, Mr. Adjustments. Go for it. What's your plan? Where did Sully fail systems-wise? How is it not JR's job to get his coach players that work well in his system? How would you get the most out of this blueline, brimming with speed, passing ability and talent? Carolina's forwards may be worse than ours when it comes to top end talent, but their point totals aren't much different as you go beyond our big guns. Their blueline, however, is immeasurably better. Like, orders of magnitude better, in every facet of the game. To say our team, to a man, outclasses the Canes' roster is absurd.

This season we were one Sid or Murray injury away from picking in the top-10 this summer. But hey, them adjustments.

 

[DanielPlainview]

I'll repeat: the Penguins were swept by the Islanders who then were swept by the freaking Hurricanes.

Only if it's being completely mismanaged does a team with as much talent as the Penguins play such a non-competitive series. How many goals did they score? 6? In 4 games. Were they playing prime Roy? Were they being pinned back by some elite offensive force? No to both. They got worked by a lunchpale group because their coach is a chotch who thinks what worked with Letang, Cole, Daley, and Schultz should magically work with this group.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I'll repeat: the Penguins were swept by the Islanders who then were swept by the freaking Hurricanes.

Only if it's being completely mismanaged does a team with as much talent as the Penguins play such a non-competitive series. How many goals did they score? 6? In 4 games. Were they playing prime Roy? Were they being pinned back by some elite offensive force? No to both. They got worked by a lunchpale group because their coach is a chotch who thinks what worked with Letang, Cole, Daley, and Schultz should magically work with this group.

The offense runs through the blueline. Welcome to hockey in 2019. Sid, Geno, Jake, etc. can't score when the puck is in their own zone because their blueliners can't skate or move pucks out of danger. Guys like JJ, Maatta and Gudbranson are wholly overwhelmed by any sort of speed and aggressiveness on the forecheck. They can't exit the zone for the life of 'em. The first two probably aren't legitimate NHL players anymore in today's game. Gudbranson is hanging on by a thread.

We got dismantled by a team that, shocker, forechecks hard in 2019. The NHL is a speed-based league, and if you've got guys like JJ, Maatta, and Gudbranson on your blueline going back for dump-ins and having to deal with forecheckers, you're toast. They tore us apart with their forecheck, attacking the glaring weakness that is our blueline. Woah, imagine that. Can't score goals when you're unable to exit your own zone or get pucks up to your forwards. Then the Isles played the Canes who have an immeasurably better blueline--which again, is what drives your team's ability to score those goals--and got completely dismantled in their own right. Geno said it, verbatim; "He's in the NHL, he should be able to skate the puck out of danger." Three guys on this blueline can't skate, or pass pucks out of danger. Dammit, Sully! Make those guys better hockey players!

The Isles had no real offensive talent beyond Barzal and Lee. We made guys like Eberle, who is a 50pt guy, look like Kucherov, because our blueline is abysmal. As soon as the Isles ran into a team with a blueline that was capable of skating/passing pucks out of danger and playing under the duress of their forecheck, they crumbled. The Isles didn't even look like a playoff team against Carolina and their blueline. Imagine that. That ain't on Sully, regardless of how badly you want to stomp your feet and hold your breath until you're red in the face. JR built a slow, ineffective team that sucks at ES because he wanted to go bigger and more heavy as if this was 2003. Tom Wilson ran our guys a couple years in a row in the playoffs and JR went batty, completely abandoning the proper way to build a team nowadays. Our blueline is a tire fire. Geno's got zero wingers. Hornqvist is awful at ES. Phil's awful at ES. Sid and Jake have a revolving door of underwhelming RW options. The 2nd pairing needs a significant #3 to play with Schultz. The list goes on.

Hope this helped. Still waiting on those specifics, by the way, as opposed to buzzwords with no reasoning behind them like "adjustments!"

 

[DanielPlainview]

If the team runs through the blueline then they needed to adjust to the blueline, not force the blueline to play outside their ability. Or better yet, change the system to better utilize the team's strengths. If the blueline is a weakness, it is moronic to use a system that leans so heavily on it. Watching these guys make cross-ice passes in the neutral zone was madness. How many oddman rushes did that create for the Islanders? Those are problems with the coach, the lack of ADJUSTMENT to his roster.

The fact Trotz knew exactly what Sullivan was going to do really just puts the nail in the coffin on this topic. Trotz probably fell asleep out of bordem scheming to stop the Pens because Sullivan just kept throwing the same thing out there.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

If the team runs through the blueline then they needed to adjust to the blueline, not force the blueline to play outside their ability. Watching these guys make cross ice passes in the neutral zone was madness. How many oddman rushes did that create for the Islanders? Those are problems with the coach, the lack of ADJUSTMENT to his roster.

You're wrong, but I'll bite; How do you adjust? What would you have been satisfied with Sully doing? You keep thumping this "adjust to your blueline" stuff, so what's the deal? Trap like crazy and neuter any semblance of an already struggling offensive presence? How does that make guys like JJ, Maatta and Gudbranson any better at handling the forecheck on a dump-in, or handling speed along the outside as the opposition enters the zone? Slow the game down to cater to guys that probably aren't even NHLers in today's game? Trapping teams work because they can stifle the opposition and counter quickly, capitalizing on a bad pinch or someone getting out of position. This team can't capitalize on anything with guys like JJ, Maatta and Gudbranson on the backend, tasked with skating or passing pucks out of danger and up to their forwards to counter on the rush.

Again, you're just stomping your feet and spouting nonsense because you need to point the finger at someone. It's the easy way out to blame the coach when your team is built like trash and a large portion of your roster is unwilling or incapable of playing successful hockey in today's NHL landscape.

I almost kind of hope that Sully is fired and we get some truly idiotic coach like Johnston to take his place. It'd be poetic to see people come to grips with the fact that Sully's a damn good coach, even with his warts when it comes to TOI/line combos.

 

[DanielPlainview]

The Penguins have more talent than most of the teams that will be playing in the conference finals. I don't want to hear any more excuses for Sullivan. Why you refuse to accept his failure is your own problem to deal with. It's the same dumb mindset that kept Bylsma around when he was doing the same nonsense.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The Penguins have more talent than most of the teams that will be playing in the conference finals. I don't want to hear any more excuses for Sullivan. Why you refuse to accept his failure is your own problem to deal with.

Talent at forward doesn't do much when you're hemmed in your own zone or getting dismantled by the opposing forecheck.

Penguins: Letang, Dumo, Schultz, Petts, JJ, Maatta, Gudbranson
Bruins: Chara, McAvoy, Krug, Carlo, Grzelcyk, Clifton
Canes: Slavin, Hamilton, Pesce, Faulk, Fleury, DeHaan
Avs: EJ, Cole, Barrie, Zadorov, Girard, Makar
Sharks: Vlasic, Burns, Dillon, Karlsson, Ryan, Braun
Blues: Edmundson, Pietrangelo, Bouwmeester, Parayko, Dunn, Gunnarsson

Yeah, I'll take any of those bluelines over ours. The Canes, Avs and Sharks bluelines completely blow ours out of the water from top to bottom. The Blues blueline is much better in terms of depth.

That darned Sullivan and his adjustments, man. I'm talking to a wall. I'm done, this is pointless. Keep stomping your feet and clenching your fists. It's not going to change the fact that Sully is far down on the list of reasons this team's circling the drain of mediocrity and probably won't challenge for another Cup before Geno and potentially Letang are done in three years.

 

[Night Shift]

The Penguins have more talent than most of the teams that will be playing in the conference finals. I don't want to hear any more excuses for Sullivan. Why you refuse to accept his failure is your own problem to deal with. It's the same dumb mindset that kept Bylsma around when he was doing the same nonsense.

Sullivan did attempt to adjust but the offense defied him and told the defense to skate it out.

 

[Andy99]

Does it matter if it was a failure to adjust or have the right system for the personnel or if it was the forwards freelancing...G and Letang reportedly were not listening to him for much of the year, and if you watch Sid in the Isles series, he apparently wasn’t either...I trust 2/3 of our core more than I trust the coach...if they believe it’s time for him to go, send him packing...

Holland is looking for a coach in EDM...trade him Sullivan for a draft pick...

Yes, I think JR and our roster construction is a bigger issue but coaches lose the room a lot quickly, it’s the nature of the business and the type of small edge that’s sometimes needed to get players or teams over the hump...coaches are hired to be fired

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Talent at forward doesn't do much when you're hemmed in your own zone or getting dismantled by the opposing forecheck.

Penguins: Letang, Dumo, Schultz, Petts, JJ, Maatta, Gudbranson
Bruins: Chara, McAvoy, Krug, Carlo, Grzelcyk, Clifton
Canes: Slavin, Hamilton, Pesce, Faulk, Fleury, DeHaan
Avs: EJ, Cole, Barrie, Zadorov, Girard, Makar
Sharks: Vlasic, Burns, Dillon, Karlsson, Ryan, Braun
Blues: Edmundson, Pietrangelo, Bouwmeester, Parayko, Dunn, Gunnarsson

Yeah, I'll take any of those bluelines over ours. The Canes, Avs and Sharks bluelines completely blow ours out of the water from top to bottom. The Blues blueline is much better in terms of depth.

That darned Sullivan and his adjustments, man. I'm talking to a wall. I'm done, this is pointless. Keep stomping your feet and clenching your fists. It's not going to change the fact that Sully is far down on the list of reasons this team's circling the drain of mediocrity and probably won't challenge for another Cup before Geno and potentially Letang are done in three years.

What about the Islanders' blueline? I don't think they're appreciably better than the Pens