Does Plus/Minus Mean Anything Anymore?

[Buds17]

Says something even if it's not near the top of the go-to stat list. The +20 leads the team and he's never finished an NHL season as a plus player, so that's encouraging/an improvement in my view.

 

[socko]

It would be a much better stat if it was just a 5-on-5 stat with a goalie in each net stat. As it is, the stat is really stupid. A guy who doesn't penalty kill (costs him about 5 shorthanded goals), plays a lot of PP (costs him about 5 shorthanded goals), is out in the last minute of the game with his net empty (costs him more goals) and is never out there to protect the lead when the other teams net is empty (costs him more goals)......gets totally jobbed. Basically it's a stat to make pluggers who don't play the PP, penalty kill a lot, aren't out there to score with their net empty, but are out when the other teams net is empty, it makes them look good. Stupid stat as it is.

 

[Slyfox]

It would be a much better stat if it was just a 5-on-5 stat with a goalie in each net stat. As it is, the stat is really stupid. A guy who doesn't penalty kill (costs him about 5 shorthanded goals), plays a lot of PP (costs him about 5 shorthanded goals), is out in the last minute of the game with his net empty (costs him more goals) and is never out there to protect the lead when the other teams net is empty (costs him more goals)......gets totally jobbed. Basically it's a stat to make pluggers who don't play the PP, penalty kill a lot, aren't out there to score with their net empty, but are out when the other teams net is empty, it makes them look good. Stupid stat as it is.

Doesn't that make Gardiners +20 more impressive considering he doesn't PK and is usually on the PP. Also, hes out when they are trying to score with the goalie out.

 

[Menzinger]

Pretty useless for players, better suited as a team stat though

 

[Battle Lin]

jake has a gift...he consistently makes mistakes that lead to scoring chances, but the opponent team NEVER EVER scores on gardiner's mistakes...its actually pretty crazy if you've been paying attention

 

[Stephen]

It's just one more statistic.

 

[socko]

I just don't see how you can respect a stat where it's possible to get a plus, but totally impossible to get a minus, while you're on the ice. It's like going to war and saying you can shoot others but nobody can shoot back at you. Not much of a war then. Somebody like Guy Carboneau must have designed it.

 

[nuck]

It has a luck driven aspect because you can suck but still benefit, like a second assist on a goal. On the other hand advanced stats rely on shots rather than actual scoring so you can look good but be only hypothetically effective as shots only potentially relate to scoring. It doesnt consider results, just effort. To be useful it should be considered in the context of other metrics. It measures what you were there for, not what you caused, but if you are leading your team it suggests you arent dragging them down, even if advanced stats dont like you.

 

[wingman75]

Who is this Mike Bobcat person?

I can't find a Mike Bobcat listed as an employee of the Maple Leafs anywhere.

If you mean Mike Babcock, then, out of respect to him, use his name properly!

If you really don't know, where have you been? I'll assume you truly don't... in which case, it was our most wonderful Paul Romanuk that actually called him Bobcat during a live NHL broadcast... for reals

There are also some awesome gifs floating around if you care to look.

 

[wingman75]

I just don't see how you can respect a stat where it's possible to get a plus, but totally impossible to get a minus, while you're on the ice. It's like going to war and saying you can shoot others but nobody can shoot back at you. Not much of a war then. Somebody like Guy Carboneau must have designed it.

It evens itself out.

PP goals for and against do not count, so no one is benefiting more than the other.

Just like SH goals do count, again making it an even situation, as far as +/- goes.

 

[Al14]

If you really don't know, where have you been? I'll assume you truly don't... in which case, it was our most wonderful Paul Romanuk that actually called him Bobcat during a live NHL broadcast... for reals

There are also some awesome gifs floating around if you care to look.

It was a slip of the tongue by Romanuk! No excuse for others to disrespect our coach by using his name incorrectly.

Now, if it was a nickname approved by Babcock, then, I would have no complaint.

Sorry, JMHO.

 

[socko]

It evens itself out.

PP goals for and against do not count, so no one is benefiting more than the other.

Just like SH goals do count, again making it an even situation, as far as +/- goes.

It doesn't even out. PP goal against is a minus. Sure if Gretzky scores 215 points, he's still going to win the +/- award. But the difference between a guy who plays tons of PP minutes and doesn't penalty kill, vs the guy who plays the opposite could easily be worth a 10 point difference. It's dumb.

 

[Canada4Gold]

It might be slightly useful when comparing teammates, but even then it's not very useful because of quality of compatition, and teammate differences. Comparing between players on different teams ia slmost completely useless, unless you're comparing how good their +/- is relative to team mates(+4 team leader on a bad team is better than +12 middle of the pack on a good team), and again it's still not the best because of quality comp and teammates. There are far more useful stats that you can use that by the time you get down to using +/- you already have a pretty clear idea about how good the player is.

 

[wingman75]

It doesn't even out. PP goal against is a minus. Sure if Gretzky scores 215 points, he's still going to win the +/- award. But the difference between a guy who plays tons of PP minutes and doesn't penalty kill, vs the guy who plays the opposite could easily be worth a 10 point difference. It's dumb.

PP goals against are not a minus, never have been.

Only SHG count as plus or minus during a PP.

Plus-Minus
A player is awarded a "plus" each time he is on the ice when his Club scores an even-strength or shorthanded goal. He receives a "minus" if he is on the ice for an even-strength or shorthanded goal scored by the opposing Club. The difference in these numbers is considered the player's "plus-minus" statistic.

As per http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26374

Thought it was obvious.

 

[socko]

PP goals against are not a minus, never have been.

Only SHG count as plus or minus during a PP.

Plus-Minus
A player is awarded a "plus" each time he is on the ice when his Club scores an even-strength or shorthanded goal. He receives a "minus" if he is on the ice for an even-strength or shorthanded goal scored by the opposing Club. The difference in these numbers is considered the player's "plus-minus" statistic.

As per http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26374

Thought it was obvious.

What are you calling a PP goal against, if not a short-handed goal? You're on the PP, the other teams scores, that's a minus.

 

[zeke]

the plus minus leaders are usually the softest usage players on good teams.

the plus minus bottom feeders are usually the toughest usage players on bad teams.

most of the time plus minus tells you the opposite of what you think it does.

 

[Apotheosis]

It hasn't mattered for a very long time.

 

[-DeMo-]

the plus minus leaders are usually the softest usage players on good teams.

the plus minus bottom feeders are usually the toughest usage players on bad teams.

most of the time plus minus tells you the opposite of what you think it does.

you can say the exact same thing about Corsi

 

[LeafsNation75]

This is where plus/minus shouldn't mean a lot. During the season opener when Matthews scored his 4 goals he ended up only a +3 because he was on for the winning goal against in overtime. If anything the NHL should change the rule where plus/minus should not count in overtime since it's 3 on 3 and not 5 on 5. I realize it's still playing at even strength, however times have changed. I mean they don't count plus/minus when a power play goal gets scored.

 

[zeke]

you can say the exact same thing about Corsi

corsi lets us adjust for usage and team quality and all sorts of other factors, which is why it's so useful.

 

[Macallan18]

It was a slip of the tongue by Romanuk! No excuse for others to disrespect our coach by using his name incorrectly.

Now, if it was a nickname approved by Babcock, then, I would have no complaint.

Sorry, JMHO.

I see it as a humorous sign of respect:

"The bobcat is an adaptable predator that inhabits wooded areas, as well as semidesert, urban edge, forest edge, and swampland environments. It remains in some of its original range, but populations are vulnerable to local extinction ("extirpation") by coyotes and domestic animals. With a gray to brown coat, whiskered face, and black-tufted ears, the bobcat resembles the other species of the midsized Lynx genus. It is smaller on average than the Canada lynx, with which it shares parts of its range, but is about twice as large as the domestic cat. It has distinctive black bars on its forelegs and a black-tipped, stubby tail, from which it derives its name.

Though the bobcat prefers rabbits and hares, it hunts insects, chickens, geese and other birds, small rodents, and deer. Prey selection depends on location and habitat, season, and abundance. Like most cats, the bobcat is territorial and largely solitary, although with some overlap in home ranges. It uses several methods to mark its territorial boundaries, including claw marks and deposits of urine or feces. The bobcat breeds from winter into spring and has a gestation period of about two months.

Although bobcats have been hunted extensively by humans, both for sport and fur, their population has proven resilient though declining in some areas. The elusive predator features in Native American mythology and the folklore of European settlers."

 

[Bluelines]

Directionally it could be usefull when used with other stats but using only +/- to draw any absolute conclusions is flawed.

 

[deletethis]

It was never a very good stat. As far as I'm concerned it still says: "In whatever way this team uses this player during this season this is how effective it has been." Like any stat, the circumstances are hidden or buried.

 

[deletethis]

corsi lets us adjust for usage and team quality and all sorts of other factors, which is why it's so useful.

No reason you can't do that with plus/minus as well.

 

[deletethis]

I just don't see how you can respect a stat where it's possible to get a plus, but totally impossible to get a minus, while you're on the ice. It's like going to war and saying you can shoot others but nobody can shoot back at you. Not much of a war then. Somebody like Guy Carboneau must have designed it.

You mean like how pretty much everyone disregards anything other than 5v5 Corsi?