Does Plus/Minus Mean Anything Anymore?

[Macallan18]

Was reading an interview of Mike Bobcat, and he was talking about Jake Gardiner. Pointed out he was plus 20 on the year.
Does anyone look at these stats anymore? Is there any value in them or have they gone by the wayside?
I was a bit surprised the Bobcat used it to praise Jake's play.

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[Mess]

The NHL tracks it as an official stat.

http://www.espn.com/nhl/statistics/player/_/stat/points/sort/plusMinus/year/2017/seasontype/2

Jake Gardiner is #16th in the NHL in +/-

Its some fans that don't like it when it sheds negative light on some players emphasizing their poor defensive play. Some debate its more a team stat as all players on the ice at the time of a goal are effected.

Bottom line: It measures # of goals scored while on the ice both for and against.

 

[LeafsNation149]

Gardiner is +20, Carrick is +8. When the difference between the top 2 leaders is that big, yes it is kind of meaningful

 

[Daisy Jane]

many players care.
i would argue you start paying attention when it's over 10-12. it stops being more lucky/unlucky (ie: oh i stepped on the ice at the right/wrong moment).

if you earn a green jacket - i'd be concerned

 

[SprDaVE]

Nope.

 

[Nithoniniel]

The NHL tracks it as an official stat.

http://www.espn.com/nhl/statistics/player/_/stat/points/sort/plusMinus/year/2017/seasontype/2

Jake Gardiner is #16th in the NHL in +/-

Its some fans that don't like it when it sheds negative light on some players emphasizing their poor defensive play. Some debate its more a team stat as all players on the ice at the time of a goal are effect.

Bottom line: It measures # of goals scored while on the ice both for and against.

It's not a debate that it's more a team stat, it's pretty much a fact.

It's also not pure goal differential either, as it half-includes special teams as well.

It's a stat that tries to say something about everything and end up saying pretty much nothing about anything in particular, while having a closer correlation with contextual factors than the individual players.

Whatever you want to use it for, there are much, much better alternatives.

 

[Satan]

The NHL tracks it as an official stat.

http://www.espn.com/nhl/statistics/player/_/stat/points/sort/plusMinus/year/2017/seasontype/2

Jake Gardiner is #16th in the NHL in +/-

Its some fans that don't like it when it sheds negative light on some players emphasizing their poor defensive play. Some debate its more a team stat as all players on the ice at the time of a goal are effect.

Bottom line: It measures # of goals scored while on the ice both for and against.

Does it though?


If you're on the PP and you allow a SHG, you take a minus but no plus is awarded. So if you're a player who plays a lot on the PK, you can arguably improve your +/- while a PP specialist cannot. Why should deployment influence it?

 

[skacore]

Does it though?


If you're on the PP and you allow a SHG, you take a minus but no plus is awarded. So if you're a player who plays a lot on the PK, you can arguably improve your +/- while a PP specialist cannot. Why should deployment influence it?

There's also a buffer period after a PP ends where you still have 5 guys in the zone vs 4, vise versa a PKer can have a goal scored in the 4-5 seconds it takes the penalized player to join back in the play. Give or take, it all balances itself out.

 

[Al14]

Was reading an interview of Mike Bobcat, and he was talking about Jake Gardiner. Pointed out he was plus 20 on the year.
Does anyone look at these stats anymore? Is there any value in them or have they gone by the wayside?
I was a bit surprised the Bobcat used it to praise Jake's play.

Who is this Mike Bobcat person?

I can't find a Mike Bobcat listed as an employee of the Maple Leafs anywhere.

If you mean Mike Babcock, then, out of respect to him, use his name properly!

 

[Kelly]

Just like any stat it needs to be taken with context. Comparing players on different teams with +/- is useless, players on the same team is a little more fair but there are far better ways to quantify defensive qualities now, it's definitely an outdated stat.

 

[skacore]

+/- will always matter, and will always be an official stat. The stat alone is pretty self explanatory... your team tends to do better when you're on the ice if you're a +

 

[Satan]

There's also a buffer period after a PP ends where you still have 5 guys in the zone vs 4, vise versa a PKer can have a goal scored in the 4-5 seconds it takes the penalized player to join back in the play. Give or take, it all balances itself out.

I don't think it does.






Garret Hohl wrote an interesting article on the topic last year for Hockey-Graphs.com. It's very insightful to why +/- really isn't that important of a statistic.


Here's a link for those curious: https://hockey-graphs.com/2016/11/0...-statistic-in-hockey-and-should-be-abolished/

 

[hoglund]

It's an important stat that is overlooked my many. To answer your question "does it mean anything anymore, yes most hockey pools count plus/minus and it shows if the player is an overall good player, not just scoring, but also defense.

 

[Budsfan]

A lot of stats are subjective like Corsi and Fenwick, same for Plus Minus.

Many stats should be used in conjunction with other factors like TOI and playing the PK, or the PP.

 

[RoadWarrior]

A lot of stats are subjective like Corsi and Fenwick, same for Plus Minus.

Many stats should be used in conjunction with other factors like TOI and playing the PK, or the PP.

There's nothing subjective about those stats. It's not figure skating.

However the reason why Corsi and Fenwick have largely replaced plus/minus is because they remove goaltending as a factor and focus on the shots for and against which correlate to zone time.

The weakness in all of those stats is that they apply to entire lines or defense pairings so individual performance can be overshadowed. That's why the Corsi relative numbers and shots/points per game are important.

Gardiner has always been a possession monster but sometimes his giveaways can be truly spectacular. Teams need some balance of puck carriers and puck retrievers.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

The NHL tracks it as an official stat.

http://www.espn.com/nhl/statistics/player/_/stat/points/sort/plusMinus/year/2017/seasontype/2

Jake Gardiner is #16th in the NHL in +/-

Its some fans that don't like it when it sheds negative light on some players emphasizing their poor defensive play. Some debate its more a team stat as all players on the ice at the time of a goal are effect.

Bottom line: It measures # of goals scored while on the ice both for and against.

If it just did that it wouldn't be too bad but it has several characteristics that render it completely useless. Without going into detail (that has been done many times by experts) it is little better than a random number generator.

 

[Leafblooded]

I've watched hockey for 24 years and yet always somehow thought +/- did not include power play goals against. Now that you guys say it does ding a player for being on the PK when a goal is scored against, I can finally see why this stat is so invalid.

Can someone please confirm PP goals againt PKers count against one's +/-?

 

[yubbers]

Only when it goes with what you're saying

 

[LeafsNation149]

I've watched hockey for 24 years and yet always somehow thought +/- did not include power play goals against. Now that you guys say it does ding a player for being on the PK when a goal is scored against, I can finally see why this stat is so invalid.

Can someone please confirm PP goals againt PKers count against one's +/-?

They don't count

 

[Randy Randerson]

it's sort of kinda useful as a quick reference to see how good a line/team is, not useful at all as a player stat.

It was a rudimentary predecessor of the shot attempt differential stats that we use today (Corsi, Fenwick), but it measures far too little data to be meaningful in anything less than many thousands of games where all variables are held constant if you're looking at it to judge a player, so it's just not viable. There's also no "relative" version of it that gives context to how a player's team mates fare without him on the ice, and if there was it would be like "+3 with player, -1 without player" for most guys over the course of a whole season, not nearly enough info to be meaningful

even for quick reference, the stat sites are getting good enough that it's easy to check more meaningful things

 

[Satan]

I've watched hockey for 24 years and yet always somehow thought +/- did not include power play goals against. Now that you guys say it does ding a player for being on the PK when a goal is scored against, I can finally see why this stat is so invalid.

Can someone please confirm PP goals againt PKers count against one's +/-?

These don't count.


But if you're on the PP and you allow a shorthanded goal -> it counts in terms of +/-

so the PKers get a + for scoring a SHG and the PPers get a - for allowing a SHG.

 

[hoglund]

I've watched hockey for 24 years and yet always somehow thought +/- did not include power play goals against. Now that you guys say it does ding a player for being on the PK when a goal is scored against, I can finally see why this stat is so invalid.

Can someone please confirm PP goals againt PKers count against one's +/-?

Plus/minus doesn't count on power play or penalty kill, whoever thought that is wrong.

 

[skacore]

Plus/minus doesn't count on power play or penalty kill, whoever thought that is wrong.

That can be confusing... if you score short handed, you get a +, the PP players get a -

If you get scored on while short handed, you don't get a -, nor do the PP players get a +

 

[Nithoniniel]

Plus/minus doesn't count on power play or penalty kill, whoever thought that is wrong.

"A player is awarded a "plus" each time he is on the ice when his Club scores an even-strength or shorthanded goal. He receives a "minus" if he is on the ice for an even-strength or shorthanded goal scored by the opposing Club. The difference in these numbers is considered the player's "plus-minus" statistic."

Straight from NHL's own homepage.

 

[hoglund]

That can be confusing... if you score short handed, you get a +, the PP players get a -

If you get scored on while short handed, you don't get a -, nor do the PP players get a +

To make it clear you can't get a minus if you're killing a penalty and you can't get a plus if you're on the power play.