Does our painful history lead us to favor larger-scale change vs. internal improvement?

[Leafsfan74]

I wonder whether a combination of our long and painful history of being Leafs fans, as well as our relatively unexpected early success with this young core (ie. our expectations were largely expedited in 2017), has led to our fanbase favoring drastic measures (eg. I've seen a lot of support for trading Marner for Pietrangelo) vs. subtle changes around our talented, young core.

Watching "The Last Dance" right now on Netflix reminds me that Jordan was the best player in the NBA for years and yet his Bulls team lost in the POs 6 times before winning their first of 6 championships. Their team was pretty much identical the year they finally won in '91 to their losing team in '90, albeit with a different coach (Phil Jackson) and a much more motivated/angry team heading into the '91 season. I get that it was Michael Jordan lol, but the fact that he took on less of a focal role under Phil in '91 and the team was emphasized more, speaks to the fact that it wasn't just all MJ.

Our Raptors were the laughing stock of nearly every playoffs before they finally broke through and won last year. Yes, I get that Kawhi completely changed everything, but anyone who watched the run saw a much different surrounding team than years before as well, not to mention a much better coach.

Anyway, my point here isn't to draw apples to apples identical comparisons, only to highlight the fact that as tough as these early exits have been, our young core is really only starting to scratch the surface of their careers and how they will be defined. I get that the ultimate result still remains the same as the last ___ amount of years (decades?) but you can't deny the ridiculous amount of talent we've assembled, all in the infancy stages of their career, which is unlike any other time before. I think we must keep this young core together (while making tweaks around them for sure) and realize that this is a marathon, not a sprint. This core can and hopefully will improve internally and grow from these disappointments and I think it's far too soon to give up on them.

Different era, different players, different type of leader. Most importantly, different sport. None like him in hockey maybe since Gretzky in terms of wanting to win (for Wayne, the sport just passed him rapidly as he aged and he couldn't control the game), but you might have to go even further back to Richard in terms of his fire and Will to Win championships. In his case, in the face of hatred.

I haven't seen progress in the Leafs, I've seen the same lacklustre effort when the chips are down. That to me, is the real metric of what's important to a player. Contracts are signed, let's get some points when they are easy and ride it out.

My opinion is, unless there is a big move, this team will most likely sputter out. More like the Oilers of a few years ago. Youth, talent and ultimately, hype. They haven't won a round yet and we expect this same group to lift a Cup? Without that Miracle on Ice in Game Four, they don't even get to a 5th, against the CBJ who so many on here figured would get rolled by the "flashy, talented, Blue Machine". That's not how sports works. You want it more and you sacrifice more, or you will lose...every time.

If there had been progress, ok, I'm in the doubters group now unfortunately, unless there is a big move. I've seen enough sports, you rarely just turn it on one day without solid growth over time, especially in hockey. I gave them a good look, and that's the conclusion I've made. I've stated on here for some time, they needed balance in their lineup, it's very hard to achieve now with the cap.

Leafs need more disrupters and just plain unhappy guys on the team. Guys who are miserable when they lose and players are worried about being around him when he gets that way. That sort of deep analysis. Trying to obtain a Big Dog on D, is going to be tough. He will have to tinker with a couple of Plan B or C's and hope for the best. It's clear, he or the organization, are unwilling to break a piece off and replace it.

It is what it is.

 

[FlareKnight]

In the end you can go at it either way. Either just keep on tweaking the team around the big forward group and hope they’ll one day figure it out. It make that core group smaller and make some changes to the overall roster. Not going to be shocked at people trusting either approach and sadly we won’t know which one may work until we go down a road and see the results. At that point there’s no going back.

Can’t say I’m a fan of the wait and hope option. And yeah part of it comes down to Marner. We’ve already seen the priorities of this group and winning isn’t the top one. How long can we afford to wait? Until Matthews runs off to Arizona? Tavares deteriorates as he gets older? Marner...tries to continue crippling the team with his next contract? This group needs a wake up call that they don’t have forever to win and falling short comes with a cost. If they think they’ll get their turn at the playoffs every year they are being naive.

And yeah that’s mostly complaints and over the top. But I don’t think this group has shown enough that they should just get unlimited chances without changes being made. Now maybe a long patient road will pan out. But if I’m going to pick anything I’m going to go with waking those you don’t move up. This isn’t a team that is owning the league and falling a bit short in the playoffs. They are a middle of the road team that can’t beat anyone in a playoff series. What are we waiting for? For them to spend a decade figuring out how to win a playoff series?

In the end I still get why people want to wait. Better the devil you know. In the end we’re out of luck for change for another year. Team might want to get it right this year. Only so long this core and Dubas will be given before time is up and the option for change kicks in.

 

[Ifittex il Verita]

Looking down the Leafs lineup, who can you honestly say is a heart and soul player who will lay it on the line to win games?
Leafs are probably the worst team in the league in this regard. This team is disgusting the way they mentally check out when games get tough. This culture is as rotten as ever, no amount of internal improvement will change it.

 

[93WrapAround]

I think you are over stating the amount of opinion voiced favouring trading Marner. It is far from a majority of posters in that category. They are vocal but not because of the player. Its because of the cap hit.
He produces right up there with players in that range but he’s just not supposed to be making that much in their eyes. He produces and its elite production. The contact correlates to his production.

I like him and most do

I think you are understating the amount of support for such a move, simply because it's not how you feel. And of course I understand that his contract plays a huge part in their reasoning, but my point still stands that it would be ill-advised to break up this talented young core at this point UNLESS you're getting an equally talented young piece (preferably on defence), which is just not likely in the slightest. Replacing one of those pieces with a 30+ player would be a big mistake imo

 

[93WrapAround]

The 1989/1990 Bulls lost the East Conference Finals in 7 games after dominating the first two rounds. The Leafs' didn't make the playoffs. A better comparison would be the 1986/87 Bulls (the last time the Bulls failed to win a round) and the 1990/91 Bulls. The roster was completely turned over except for Jordan and Paxson.

It's a fair point, but keep in mind that was their 6th straight exit from the playoffs and he lost 3 straight in the FIRST round, whereas this group has had 4 cracks at it together. So your preferred comparison is only a 1 year difference. In their fourth year they lost in round 2 4-1. So i don't see a massive difference between our first 4 years with this core, and Jordan's first four years - just 1 winning round by Bulls.

That being said, I would agree that the next couple years we need to see progress (getting further into the playoffs) for my point to be more valid. Without any progress next year, or another first round exit, you'd have to be content with blowing it up a bit

 

[93WrapAround]

As someone who just finished The Last Dance...I'm really struggling to understand how this is your main takeaway from it. Here are the two main ideas I learned from it and how I applied them to this team.

1. Work Ethic

Michael Jordan had an incredible work ethic. There are at least two instances in his career where MJ specifically built his body in order to succeed in his sport -- in the first instance, it was after he and the Bulls lost to the Detroit Pistons for the 3rd straight year in Game 7 in the 1990 NBA playoffs. He had been beaten up by the physical Pistons, and spent that offseason putting on muscle so he could start playing a more physical game against them. In the second instance, he specifically trained himself so he could pursue a career in baseball. I think MJ mentioned that he essentially had to reconstruct his entire body for baseball, and then had to reconstruct it again when he un-retired from the NBA in 1995. I think this exemplifies how good his work ethic was: he worked hard because he believed that if fans were paying to see him, he should put up his best efforts.

Do the Leafs have this level of work ethic? Do we have players that are willing to put in time on the ice when they don't have to, or are willing to dedicate their offseason to bulking up to play a more physical game? I don't know much about any of our player's offseason training regimens, but I do know that this team has displayed fairly poor work ethic based on how many games they take off and how complacent they are when they have a lead. I also know that after the embarrassing David Ayres game, Nylander was one of the only Leafs who actually practiced the next day. The Leafs don't currently have a championship-level work ethic.

2. Competitiveness / Mentality

This is easily the biggest discrepancy I can see between the Leafs and Michael Jordan / the Bulls. MJ was notorious for being deeply competitive in almost every aspect of his life, but this was especially evident when it came to basketball. He was a fierce competitor even in practices, and he would constantly berate or engage his teammates because he believed that if they couldn't handle pressure from him, they couldn't handle the pressure of the NBA playoffs. He was someone that wanted to "win at all costs," and because he was the best player on the team, his teammates bought into his competitive drive and followed his example. Moreover, his mentality was based upon taking things personally, using any little interaction or perceived slight against him as motivation to crush that team in their next game.

When it comes to the Leafs, I haven't seen anything to indicate that the Leafs have the same level of competitive drive. I can't remember seeing a single argument or heated exchange between any of the core Leafs players over the last 4 years. I can't even remember any of this happening with either Babcock or Keefe. And when it comes to practices, I don't recall ever hearing about our core players getting into a scuffle or at least playing more physical games against each other. Obviously a lot of this would happen behind closed doors, but some of this competitiveness would show up in their games if the players clearly had a competitive mentality both on and off the ice. I have no reason to believe that the Leafs have this same mentality based on what they've shown me over the last few years.


Another big problem is that in basketball, you can play a Scottie Pippen or a Michael Jordan for 35-45 minutes a game during the playoffs. In hockey, however, you don't have the same luxury because your best players typically play 20-25 minutes at most during a playoff game (closer to 30 minutes if you're a defenseman). This means that it's especially important for a hockey team to have every player buy into this level of work ethic and competitiveness, because you can't depend on one or two guys to carry your team every night like you can in basketball. So far, the Leafs haven't instilled me with much confidence in this respect.

When did I ever say "my main takeaway from the Last Dance is"... ? I'm really struggling to understand how you changed my whole point in order to strip it down.. I even literally said it's not meant to be an apples to apples comparison and pointed out some differences...

As for Jordan, can you really say he had "incredible work ethic" in those first 6 years when he never touched any weights to build his body stronger? I think his worth ethic for basketball was great, don't get me wrong, but it took 6 playoff exits for him to want to decide to work on his body - so let's not pretend like he couldn't have made that decision much sooner. Truth is it wasn't likely until that 6th playoff exit that he took the loss with such anger and was motivated more than ever.

As for the Leafs, I will concede that you don't see this kind of fire really at least too often. You have seen Matthews and Reilly get pretty emotional though, and we don't know how Marner and Nylander react behind closed doors. Nylander came back with a fantastic season after having every reason to just mail it in after getting paid and have all the critics write him off - that is a very positive sign to me.

As far as the analogy about minutes and 5 players in basketball, I would agree that it's much tougher for stars in hockey to carry a team than in basketball. But we DO have a core of 4 or 5 players on the roster that have the potential to be all-stars, a few of which to be elite. It's the most young talent we've had in decades. That's all I was saying, and that I think it's too soon to give up on this young core as they can still improve together. Unless you're getting an equal young talent, which isn't likely happening, I'd rather try to improve the mix around them.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I think you are understating the amount of support for such a move, simply because it's not how you feel. And of course I understand that his contract plays a huge part in their reasoning, but my point still stands that it would be ill-advised to break up this talented young core at this point UNLESS you're getting an equally talented young piece (preferably on defence), which is just not likely in the slightest. Replacing one of those pieces with a 30+ player would be a big mistake imo

I believe Willy is the one we could trade for as you said equal value back. Willies contract is all loaded with signing bonus that lowers his actual money out also. He’s much cheaper than cap hit again. Kind of good fortune these signing bonus are in many trade chips contracts. As far as Marner goes. Anyone wanting to trade him is out of line with the reality of what he brings. I stand by not wanting him traded. I have no say in it anyways. Its not up to me but i would bet he won’t be the first of the 4 to be moved. Willy would be. I like them all just for a qualifier too. If it happens it won’t matter what you or i believe. Who said replace one of them with a 30 year old player! It wasn’t me.
Go ahead and show a link to all this support to trade Marner then. Sounds like its just your take to me. I don’t agree because I don’t see all this proof you see.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Youv seen a lot of support for trading Marner for Pietrangelo? Pietrangelo is a UFA, he gets to choose which team he plays for.

I don’t know where he is getting this support for trading Marner either. Marner will come back like he always does and shut everyone up. Intentionally used term shut everyone up

 

[Byron Bitz]

I don’t know where he is getting this support for trading Marner either. Marner will come back like he always does and shut everyone up. Intentionally used term shut everyone up

AGreed, Marner is an unbelievable talent and I’m glad Dubas said he’s not going anywhere.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

AGreed, Marner is an unbelievable talent and I’m glad Dubas said he’s not going anywhere.

Phenomenal talent. Support these guys with some players that grind and prevent goals and wear down teams defenses for them and we are becoming the contender/ well rounded team.

 

[Cappuccino]

Phenomenal talent. Support these guys with some players that grind and prevent goals and wear down teams defenses for them and we are becoming the contender/ well rounded team.

Those players have made it almost impossible that get players who grind or prevent goals. They wanted all the money, so they need to step up, instead of getting shut out 2 times in a 5 game pre playoff serie.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Those players have made it almost impossible that get players who grind or prevent goals. They wanted all the money, so they need to step up, instead of getting shut out 2 times in a 5 game pre playoff serie.

Good point. They carried the team all year and pkayoffs. Secondary players did not pull their weight or have very much positive effect on team play one little bit. The roster balance is terrible.

 

[93WrapAround]

I believe Willy is the one we could trade for as you said equal value back. Willies contract is all loaded with signing bonus that lowers his actual money out also. He’s much cheaper than cap hit again. Kind of good fortune these signing bonus are in many trade chips contracts. As far as Marner goes. Anyone wanting to trade him is out of line with the reality of what he brings. I stand by not wanting him traded. I have no say in it anyways. Its not up to me but i would bet he won’t be the first of the 4 to be moved. Willy would be. I like them all just for a qualifier too. If it happens it won’t matter what you or i believe. Who said replace one of them with a 30 year old player! It wasn’t me.
Go ahead and show a link to all this support to trade Marner then. Sounds like its just your take to me. I don’t agree because I don’t see all this proof you see.

I literally posted a screen shot on the first page lol. Also just read through this thread from the beginning to find many others. Open your eyes!

 

[Notsince67]

Perhaps more like trading Marner to make cap room for an aging Pietrangelo. There is a relatively large amount of support here for trading Marner, surprisingly

There were people here saying getting rid of Marner is addition by subtraction too.
That kind of stuff usually comes from the clueless or the trolls.

 

[sittler rules!!!]

View attachment 364915

Well regardless of what the reasons are for, I'm still surprised to see so much support for the idea on this forum. Many are ready to give up on this core despite the fact they are still in their early 20s and very productive. This is the group I'm speaking to here.

I do not think it is so much giving up on the core as it is to building the team properly.

 

[JayfromNB1219]

I support this idea and absolutely love Marner as a player and do not think he is being over paid. I would actually want JT gone, and again love the player and what he brings. At some point you have to build a team to win, not win now. We have been doing the latter since the Marleau accusation and the problems that caused. Robertson is a fantastic prospect, but we should also have another one thats better than him with our 1rst round pick. Same this year... The piper has to be paid one way or another. A balanced team wins. A balanced team wins year after year or at least has the potential.

Yikes...he's definitely overpaid by about 2 mill a year...mind you that doesn't mean I want him traded for an aging D-man who is heading into UFA...getting rid of Tavares isn't simple though the guy has a full NMC thanks to Dubas's superior negotiating skills...I'm of the mind to move small pieces around try to find the best 2-3 that can play throughout our top 6 and then re-tool the bottom six with guys who are just plain miserable to play against. Not easy by any means but we have a solid core and blowing it up would be monumentally stupid of us...only one i'd really like to see gone is Nylander and that's not because he's a bad hockey player, he is just so damn soft it drives me insane (I am tired of his magic wand swinging on the forecheck)

Micheyev Matthews Marner
Hyman Tavares Robertson
-X- Nylander -X-
-X- Engvall Spezza

Rielley -X-
Muzzin Holl (They seem to work very well together)
Sandin -X- (Gudas type)

Andersen
Campbell (Platoon style as opposed to Freddy playing 60)

We have a decent back up now and we should leverage that giving Freddie one last chance t prove he wants to be here and be a Leaf, mind you an improved D scheme could help a ton on its own

 

[Cobra777]

I wonder whether a combination of our long and painful history of being Leafs fans, as well as our relatively unexpected early success with this young core (ie. our expectations were largely expedited in 2017), has led to our fanbase favoring drastic measures (eg. I've seen a lot of support for trading Marner for Pietrangelo) vs. subtle changes around our talented, young core.

Watching "The Last Dance" right now on Netflix reminds me that Jordan was the best player in the NBA for years and yet his Bulls team lost in the POs 6 times before winning their first of 6 championships. Their team was pretty much identical the year they finally won in '91 to their losing team in '90, albeit with a different coach (Phil Jackson) and a much more motivated/angry team heading into the '91 season. I get that it was Michael Jordan lol, but the fact that he took on less of a focal role under Phil in '91 and the team was emphasized more, speaks to the fact that it wasn't just all MJ.

Our Raptors were the laughing stock of nearly every playoffs before they finally broke through and won last year. Yes, I get that Kawhi completely changed everything, but anyone who watched the run saw a much different surrounding team than years before as well, not to mention a much better coach.

Anyway, my point here isn't to draw apples to apples identical comparisons, only to highlight the fact that as tough as these early exits have been, our young core is really only starting to scratch the surface of their careers and how they will be defined. I get that the ultimate result still remains the same as the last ___ amount of years (decades?) but you can't deny the ridiculous amount of talent we've assembled, all in the infancy stages of their career, which is unlike any other time before. I think we must keep this young core together (while making tweaks around them for sure) and realize that this is a marathon, not a sprint. This core can and hopefully will improve internally and grow from these disappointments and I think it's far too soon to give up on them.

I agree with your post totally. I only wish our young core were in basketball(a non contact sport) but alas their talents are in hockey a full contact adrenaline, hard working sport and if your not willing to do what it takes to win which includes all facets of the game then you will never succeed. You can't only turn it on when on offense or the puck on your stick or in your possession and forget about how to play without the puck. They must be willing to accomplish and use every available fundamental that the game was based on to get it back, also by playing a strict 5 man unit defensively responsible as well. This game does not favor or reward lack of determination and lack of physical engagement as without these two the mental toughness will also suffer greatly. Problem is our core is too passive both mentally and physically at this stage. They are talented no doubt, but they just don't carry that mental true grit that prevails and it gets exposed every post season. That is my only concern with this core and because of cap space being flattened, we can't easily add all the help needed in whats missing, because imho its more than just adding 1 or 2 players.