Does our painful history lead us to favor larger-scale change vs. internal improvement?

[93WrapAround]

I wonder whether a combination of our long and painful history of being Leafs fans, as well as our relatively unexpected early success with this young core (ie. our expectations were largely expedited in 2017), has led to our fanbase favoring drastic measures (eg. I've seen a lot of support for trading Marner for Pietrangelo) vs. subtle changes around our talented, young core.

Watching "The Last Dance" right now on Netflix reminds me that Jordan was the best player in the NBA for years and yet his Bulls team lost in the POs 6 times before winning their first of 6 championships. Their team was pretty much identical the year they finally won in '91 to their losing team in '90, albeit with a different coach (Phil Jackson) and a much more motivated/angry team heading into the '91 season. I get that it was Michael Jordan lol, but the fact that he took on less of a focal role under Phil in '91 and the team was emphasized more, speaks to the fact that it wasn't just all MJ.

Our Raptors were the laughing stock of nearly every playoffs before they finally broke through and won last year. Yes, I get that Kawhi completely changed everything, but anyone who watched the run saw a much different surrounding team than years before as well, not to mention a much better coach.

Anyway, my point here isn't to draw apples to apples identical comparisons, only to highlight the fact that as tough as these early exits have been, our young core is really only starting to scratch the surface of their careers and how they will be defined. I get that the ultimate result still remains the same as the last ___ amount of years (decades?) but you can't deny the ridiculous amount of talent we've assembled, all in the infancy stages of their career, which is unlike any other time before. I think we must keep this young core together (while making tweaks around them for sure) and realize that this is a marathon, not a sprint. This core can and hopefully will improve internally and grow from these disappointments and I think it's far too soon to give up on them.

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[Joedoggy]

It all comes down to having proper personel..Period!.......keep top six style of play..out of the bottom six ..have proper bottom six with strengths that match whats required.

Heres an example since tho he is no longer a Leaf due to(bad coaching..cough Babcock)... Lou Brought in a top..bottom six player in Martin..Lou understood what he brought since he had to play against him for may years in Jersey.

With the addition of Martin the Leafs make the playoffs the next 2 years.....Note...with Martin no longer in NY the islanders did not make the playoffs these next 2 years after being in the playoffs for several years...Note Tavaras was still in Ny .

Martin goes back to Ny with Lou acquiring him....Now the Ny Islanders make the playoffs both last and this year, while also looking like they are going to the third round and maybe further. The Leafs did not make the playoffs?

As i said you need proper personel to win...tho players like Martin use a different skill set in the bottom six they are required to win.....These type of players are more complete hockey players..they are defensive/offensive.tough forecheckers and can fight...their ability to have high puck possession numbers says it all......Lastly in Toronto Martin played with ahl players before Boyle got there...he had no centre thats why Boyle was brought in.........Just the facts........Martin with 3 goals in the playoffs should also tell you something.

 

[Byron Bitz]

Youv seen a lot of support for trading Marner for Pietrangelo? Pietrangelo is a UFA, he gets to choose which team he plays for.

 

[93WrapAround]

Youv seen a lot of support for trading Marner for Pietrangelo? Pietrangelo is a UFA, he gets to choose which team he plays for.

Perhaps more like trading Marner to make cap room for an aging Pietrangelo. There is a relatively large amount of support here for trading Marner, surprisingly

 

[93WrapAround]

It all comes down to having proper personel..Period!.......keep top six style of play..out of the bottom six ..have proper bottom six with strengths that match whats required.

Heres an example since tho he is no longer a Leaf due to(bad coaching..cough Babcock)... Lou Brought in a top..bottom six player in Martin..Lou understood what he brought since he had to play against him for may years in Jersey.

With the addition of Martin the Leafs make the playoffs the next 2 years.....Note...with Martin no longer in NY the islanders did not make the playoffs these next 2 years after being in the playoffs for several years...Note Tavaras was still in Ny .

Martin goes back to Ny with Lou acquiring him....Now the Ny Islanders make the playoffs both last and this year, while also looking like they are going to the third round and maybe further. The Leafs did not make the playoffs?

As i said you need proper personel to win...tho players like Martin use a different skill set in the bottom six they are required to win.....These type of players are more complete hockey players..they are defensive/offensive.tough forecheckers and can fight...their ability to have high puck possession numbers says it all......Lastly in Toronto Martin played with ahl players before Boyle got there...he had no centre thats why Boyle was brought in.........Just the facts........Martin with 3 goals in the playoffs should also tell you something.

While I agree with your sentiment, I think you've vastly over-rated the degree to which Matt Martin impacted our team. There were many more impactful variables than his presence.

 

[LeafsNation75]

It all comes down to having proper personel..Period!.......keep top six style of play..out of the bottom six ..have proper bottom six with strengths that match whats required.

Heres an example since tho he is no longer a Leaf due to(bad coaching..cough Babcock)... Lou Brought in a top..bottom six player in Martin..Lou understood what he brought since he had to play against him for may years in Jersey.

With the addition of Martin the Leafs make the playoffs the next 2 years.....Note...with Martin no longer in NY the islanders did not make the playoffs these next 2 years after being in the playoffs for several years...Note Tavaras was still in Ny .

Martin goes back to Ny with Lou acquiring him....Now the Ny Islanders make the playoffs both last and this year, while also looking like they are going to the third round and maybe further. The Leafs did not make the playoffs?

As i said you need proper personel to win...tho players like Martin use a different skill set in the bottom six they are required to win.....These type of players are more complete hockey players..they are defensive/offensive.tough forecheckers and can fight...their ability to have high puck possession numbers says it all......Lastly in Toronto Martin played with ahl players before Boyle got there...he had no centre thats why Boyle was brought in.........Just the facts........Martin with 3 goals in the playoffs should also tell you something.

You are forgetting that late in the 2017-18 season and in the 2018 playoffs Matt Martin was made a healthy scratch by Mike Babcock. So not knowing if Babcock would do that again going into the 2018-19 season, it made sense for Dubas to trade him and not have him making $2.5 million AAV by not playing.

 

[7even]

It all comes down to having proper personel..Period!.......keep top six style of play..out of the bottom six ..have proper bottom six with strengths that match whats required.

Heres an example since tho he is no longer a Leaf due to(bad coaching..cough Babcock)... Lou Brought in a top..bottom six player in Martin..Lou understood what he brought since he had to play against him for may years in Jersey.

With the addition of Martin the Leafs make the playoffs the next 2 years.....Note...with Martin no longer in NY the islanders did not make the playoffs these next 2 years after being in the playoffs for several years...Note Tavaras was still in Ny .

Martin goes back to Ny with Lou acquiring him....Now the Ny Islanders make the playoffs both last and this year, while also looking like they are going to the third round and maybe further. The Leafs did not make the playoffs?

As i said you need proper personel to win...tho players like Martin use a different skill set in the bottom six they are required to win.....These type of players are more complete hockey players..they are defensive/offensive.tough forecheckers and can fight...their ability to have high puck possession numbers says it all......Lastly in Toronto Martin played with ahl players before Boyle got there...he had no centre thats why Boyle was brought in.........Just the facts........Martin with 3 goals in the playoffs should also tell you something.

True, if you ask any NYI fan why they're winning they'll say the same thing: Matt Martin playing 9 minutes a night.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

I wonder whether a combination of our long and painful history of being Leafs fans, as well as our relatively unexpected early success with this young core (ie. our expectations were largely expedited in 2017), has led to our fanbase favoring drastic measures (eg. I've seen a lot of support for trading Marner for Pietrangelo) vs. subtle changes around our talented, young core.

Watching "The Last Dance" right now on Netflix reminds me that Jordan was the best player in the NBA for years and yet his Bulls team lost in the POs 6 times before winning their first of 6 championships. Their team was pretty much identical the year they finally won in '91 to their losing team in '90, albeit with a different coach (Phil Jackson) and a much more motivated/angry team heading into the '91 season. I get that it was Michael Jordan lol, but the fact that he took on less of a focal role under Phil in '91 and the team was emphasized more, speaks to the fact that it wasn't just all MJ.

Our Raptors were the laughing stock of nearly every playoffs before they finally broke through and won last year. Yes, I get that Kawhi completely changed everything, but anyone who watched the run saw a much different surrounding team than years before as well, not to mention a much better coach.

Anyway, my point here isn't to draw apples to apples identical comparisons, only to highlight the fact that as tough as these early exits have been, our young core is really only starting to scratch the surface of their careers and how they will be defined. I get that the ultimate result still remains the same as the last ___ amount of years (decades?) but you can't deny the ridiculous amount of talent we've assembled, all in the infancy stages of their career, which is unlike any other time before. I think we must keep this young core together (while making tweaks around them for sure) and realize that this is a marathon, not a sprint. This core can and hopefully will improve internally and grow from these disappointments and I think it's far too soon to give up on them.

i think you’re giving too much credit to those of the ilk of wanting to actually trade a player like marner. they are mostly posters who disliked marner before this season for reasons varying from his size, pure skill style of play, his father, his salary, his attitude on camera, etc...

 

[ToneDog]

Perhaps more like trading Marner to make cap room for an aging Pietrangelo. There is a relatively large amount of support here for trading Marner, surprisingly

Marner can be a great Leaf but that cap hit on a team which already had two players with higher cap hits will make it difficult to ice a SC winner. Unfortunately for him he is the most likely of the three to get moved unless Matty decides he has had enough and wants to go south.

 

[93WrapAround]

i think you’re giving too much credit to those of the ilk of wanting to actually trade a player like marner. they are mostly posters who disliked marner before this season for reasons varying from his size, pure skill style of play, his father, his salary, his attitude on camera, etc...

Well regardless of what the reasons are for, I'm still surprised to see so much support for the idea on this forum. Many are ready to give up on this core despite the fact they are still in their early 20s and very productive. This is the group I'm speaking to here.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Marner can be a great Leaf but that cap hit on a team which already had two players with higher cap hits will make it difficult to ice a SC winner. Unfortunately for him he is the most likely of the three to get moved unless Matty decides he has had enough and wants to go south.

Wouldn't Nylander be the easier one to trade since his AAV is only $6.96 million and you think that makes it easier to trade him and not Marner.

 

[Buds17]

I think the drastic measures (ex. Marner out, Pietrangelo in) have more to do with shifting one of the big cap hits from offence to defence. My guess is that the Big 4 will remain intact until practically everything else has been proven to be unsuccessful in terms of changes. I'm expecting it to be a last resort type of move.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

View attachment 364915

Well regardless of what the reasons are for, I'm still surprised to see so much support for the idea on this forum. Many are ready to give up on this core despite the fact they are still in their early 20s and very productive. This is the group I'm speaking to here.

I think you are over stating the amount of opinion voiced favouring trading Marner. It is far from a majority of posters in that category. They are vocal but not because of the player. Its because of the cap hit.
He produces right up there with players in that range but he’s just not supposed to be making that much in their eyes. He produces and its elite production. The contact correlates to his production.

I like him and most do

 

[Faltorvo]

I wonder whether a combination of our long and painful history of being Leafs fans, as well as our relatively unexpected early success with this young core (ie. our expectations were largely expedited in 2017), has led to our fanbase favoring drastic measures (eg. I've seen a lot of support for trading Marner for Pietrangelo) vs. subtle changes around our talented, young core.

Watching "The Last Dance" right now on Netflix reminds me that Jordan was the best player in the NBA for years and yet his Bulls team lost in the POs 6 times before winning their first of 6 championships. Their team was pretty much identical the year they finally won in '91 to their losing team in '90, albeit with a different coach (Phil Jackson) and a much more motivated/angry team heading into the '91 season. I get that it was Michael Jordan lol, but the fact that he took on less of a focal role under Phil in '91 and the team was emphasized more, speaks to the fact that it wasn't just all MJ.

Our Raptors were the laughing stock of nearly every playoffs before they finally broke through and won last year. Yes, I get that Kawhi completely changed everything, but anyone who watched the run saw a much different surrounding team than years before as well, not to mention a much better coach.

Anyway, my point here isn't to draw apples to apples identical comparisons, only to highlight the fact that as tough as these early exits have been, our young core is really only starting to scratch the surface of their careers and how they will be defined. I get that the ultimate result still remains the same as the last ___ amount of years (decades?) but you can't deny the ridiculous amount of talent we've assembled, all in the infancy stages of their career, which is unlike any other time before. I think we must keep this young core together (while making tweaks around them for sure) and realize that this is a marathon, not a sprint. This core can and hopefully will improve internally and grow from these disappointments and I think it's far too soon to give up on them.

A) Matthews only has 4 years left and then a UFA,,,soooo who knows how much time we have
B) i predict only 4 more years of elite Tavares left


the kids are ONLY? scratching the surface?? then why are they being paid now? IF right,,what will nylander and matty cost in 4 years then?

 

[Duckrider]

View attachment 364915

Well regardless of what the reasons are for, I'm still surprised to see so much support for the idea on this forum. Many are ready to give up on this core despite the fact they are still in their early 20s and very productive. This is the group I'm speaking to here.

I support this idea and absolutely love Marner as a player and do not think he is being over paid. I would actually want JT gone, and again love the player and what he brings. At some point you have to build a team to win, not win now. We have been doing the latter since the Marleau accusation and the problems that caused. Robertson is a fantastic prospect, but we should also have another one thats better than him with our 1rst round pick. Same this year... The piper has to be paid one way or another. A balanced team wins. A balanced team wins year after year or at least has the potential.

 

[biotk]

Watching "The Last Dance" right now on Netflix reminds me that Jordan was the best player in the NBA for years and yet his Bulls team lost in the POs 6 times before winning their first of 6 championships. Their team was pretty much identical the year they finally won in '91 to their losing team in '90, albeit with a different coach (Phil Jackson)

The 1989/1990 Bulls lost the East Conference Finals in 7 games after dominating the first two rounds. The Leafs' didn't make the playoffs. A better comparison would be the 1986/87 Bulls (the last time the Bulls failed to win a round) and the 1990/91 Bulls. The roster was completely turned over except for Jordan and Paxson.

 

[indigobuffalo]

Minor improvement only. You look at the teams still in this, how many are “defence wins Cups”? The Islanders.

The Flyers, Bruins, Lightning, Avalanche, Canucks, Knights, Stars... they’re all heavy on scoring, some with piecemeal defence, or one or two good defenders.

The only thing that separates any of these teams is just the tiniest little things.

I think massive changes would be terrible. Not only do you reset the clock, meaning Matthews et al are wasting their prime years, but you also risk massively shortchanging yourself on the assets you have. Outside of Nylander, the big 4 would be very difficult to move with teams crunched by the cap.

Reactionary actions are a hallmark of doomed organizations. If you are “blowing it up” it is because you were dead long before.

 

[Duffman955]

The same group of losers are getting worse every year.

We are not improving, we are declining

 

[justashadowof]

1) There is preciously little insight to gain from examining a completely unrelated sport to the NHL.
2) The President and GM of the Toronto Maple Leafs should be informed about how to build a championship team from ALL historical NHL champions and near misses not merely the history of a single organization.

 

[Faltorvo]

Minor improvement only. You look at the teams still in this, how many are “defence wins Cups”? The Islanders.

The Flyers, Bruins, Lightning, Avalanche, Canucks, Knights, Stars... they’re all heavy on scoring, some with piecemeal defence, or one or two good defenders.

The only thing that separates any of these teams is just the tiniest little things.

I think massive changes would be terrible. Not only do you reset the clock, meaning Matthews et al are wasting their prime years, but you also risk massively shortchanging yourself on the assets you have. Outside of Nylander, the big 4 would be very difficult to move with teams crunched by the cap.

Reactionary actions are a hallmark of doomed organizations. If you are “blowing it up” it is because you were dead long before.

where do you come up with this crap????

boston #1 GAGs
Dallas #2
AVs #6
Philly #8
Tbay #10

 

[Mickey Marner]

Those teams made necessary improvements, that's what we want the Leafs to do so they may also become successful.

 

[socko]

Perhaps more like trading Marner to make cap room for an aging Pietrangelo. There is a relatively large amount of support here for trading Marner, surprisingly

If we get picks for Marner, who is ridiculously overpaid, and we get Pietrangelo as a free agent, sign me up.

 

[Scruffers]

I wonder whether a combination of our long and painful history of being Leafs fans, as well as our relatively unexpected early success with this young core (ie. our expectations were largely expedited in 2017), has led to our fanbase favoring drastic measures (eg. I've seen a lot of support for trading Marner for Pietrangelo) vs. subtle changes around our talented, young core.

Watching "The Last Dance" right now on Netflix reminds me that Jordan was the best player in the NBA for years and yet his Bulls team lost in the POs 6 times before winning their first of 6 championships. Their team was pretty much identical the year they finally won in '91 to their losing team in '90, albeit with a different coach (Phil Jackson) and a much more motivated/angry team heading into the '91 season. I get that it was Michael Jordan lol, but the fact that he took on less of a focal role under Phil in '91 and the team was emphasized more, speaks to the fact that it wasn't just all MJ.

Our Raptors were the laughing stock of nearly every playoffs before they finally broke through and won last year. Yes, I get that Kawhi completely changed everything, but anyone who watched the run saw a much different surrounding team than years before as well, not to mention a much better coach.

Anyway, my point here isn't to draw apples to apples identical comparisons, only to highlight the fact that as tough as these early exits have been, our young core is really only starting to scratch the surface of their careers and how they will be defined. I get that the ultimate result still remains the same as the last ___ amount of years (decades?) but you can't deny the ridiculous amount of talent we've assembled, all in the infancy stages of their career, which is unlike any other time before. I think we must keep this young core together (while making tweaks around them for sure) and realize that this is a marathon, not a sprint. This core can and hopefully will improve internally and grow from these disappointments and I think it's far too soon to give up on them.

As someone who just finished The Last Dance...I'm really struggling to understand how this is your main takeaway from it. Here are the two main ideas I learned from it and how I applied them to this team.

1. Work Ethic

Michael Jordan had an incredible work ethic. There are at least two instances in his career where MJ specifically built his body in order to succeed in his sport -- in the first instance, it was after he and the Bulls lost to the Detroit Pistons for the 3rd straight year in Game 7 in the 1990 NBA playoffs. He had been beaten up by the physical Pistons, and spent that offseason putting on muscle so he could start playing a more physical game against them. In the second instance, he specifically trained himself so he could pursue a career in baseball. I think MJ mentioned that he essentially had to reconstruct his entire body for baseball, and then had to reconstruct it again when he un-retired from the NBA in 1995. I think this exemplifies how good his work ethic was: he worked hard because he believed that if fans were paying to see him, he should put up his best efforts.

Do the Leafs have this level of work ethic? Do we have players that are willing to put in time on the ice when they don't have to, or are willing to dedicate their offseason to bulking up to play a more physical game? I don't know much about any of our player's offseason training regimens, but I do know that this team has displayed fairly poor work ethic based on how many games they take off and how complacent they are when they have a lead. I also know that after the embarrassing David Ayres game, Nylander was one of the only Leafs who actually practiced the next day. The Leafs don't currently have a championship-level work ethic.

2. Competitiveness / Mentality

This is easily the biggest discrepancy I can see between the Leafs and Michael Jordan / the Bulls. MJ was notorious for being deeply competitive in almost every aspect of his life, but this was especially evident when it came to basketball. He was a fierce competitor even in practices, and he would constantly berate or engage his teammates because he believed that if they couldn't handle pressure from him, they couldn't handle the pressure of the NBA playoffs. He was someone that wanted to "win at all costs," and because he was the best player on the team, his teammates bought into his competitive drive and followed his example. Moreover, his mentality was based upon taking things personally, using any little interaction or perceived slight against him as motivation to crush that team in their next game.

When it comes to the Leafs, I haven't seen anything to indicate that the Leafs have the same level of competitive drive. I can't remember seeing a single argument or heated exchange between any of the core Leafs players over the last 4 years. I can't even remember any of this happening with either Babcock or Keefe. And when it comes to practices, I don't recall ever hearing about our core players getting into a scuffle or at least playing more physical games against each other. Obviously a lot of this would happen behind closed doors, but some of this competitiveness would show up in their games if the players clearly had a competitive mentality both on and off the ice. I have no reason to believe that the Leafs have this same mentality based on what they've shown me over the last few years.


Another big problem is that in basketball, you can play a Scottie Pippen or a Michael Jordan for 35-45 minutes a game during the playoffs. In hockey, however, you don't have the same luxury because your best players typically play 20-25 minutes at most during a playoff game (closer to 30 minutes if you're a defenseman). This means that it's especially important for a hockey team to have every player buy into this level of work ethic and competitiveness, because you can't depend on one or two guys to carry your team every night like you can in basketball. So far, the Leafs haven't instilled me with much confidence in this respect.

 

[moon111]

The Leafs are still chewing on their teething rink when it comes to the playoffs. Let's stop coming up with unrealistic expectations that this team should be put together already. The GM, the coach, the players... all on a learning curve. In the last decade, during the playoffs, 2 of the top 3 +/- players for the Leafs have been right-defensemen and Kadri. Replace soft B and C grade scorers for some PITA players, throw out the Tyson Barrie spreadsheet formulas and replace him with a Ron Hainsey or even Roman Polak and you're in business.

 

[Stephen]

The Leafs are still playing several gears lower than what you see with a team like VGK. We can wait on the young core but they also need a supporting cast that is older, heavier, brings a better work rate, has more experience to help them mature.