Does Marleau need a cup to be a hof player

[Eisen]

So the HOF shouldn’t be reserved for great skill or “eliteness?”

Thank god you don’t vote for the inductees

It doesn't matter anymore. That boat has sailed some time ago. It is clearly not reserved for greatness and I don't like it either. Not that I have anything against the players I have in my head when saying that, but I like higher standards. Some of the players in are not even compilers.

 

[gretskidoo]

I like that Leafs fans push for Marleau for the HOF purely because he's been on their team for soon to be 2 seasons.

I'd like to see the alternate timeline where he never is on the Leafs to see if they still do it. I think I already know the answer.

 

[MyBudJT]

I like that Leafs fans push for Marleau for the HOF purely because he's been on their team for soon to be 2 seasons.

I'd like to see the alternate timeline where he never is on the Leafs to see if they still do it. I think I already know the answer.

Nice strawman argument, dude.

 

[joe dirte]

I like that Leafs fans push for Marleau for the HOF purely because he's been on their team for soon to be 2 seasons.

I'd like to see the alternate timeline where he never is on the Leafs to see if they still do it. I think I already know the answer.

Uhh. Im a leafs fan and saying he is borderline. I could care less about his last two years, hes a depth player for the leafs.

Fact is, the standards for the hall are such that he wouldnt be out of place (recent inductees include andreychuk, recchi, mark howe, dino ciccarelli). Say what you will about the standards but he has many years in the top 10 in scoring, one top 10 in hart voting and two top 10 in selke voting, plus two olympic gold medals. Plus incredible career totals. Compare to ciccarelli. Never an elite scorer, never any eeal hart or selke voting, no international success, and his point totals are only marginally higher right now despite playing mostly in the highest scoring era in history.

No one, including leaf fans will tell you he ever reached the status of being a top 5 or 10 player in the nhl. But you cant find many players with that resume that are not in the hall of fame, thats all thats said, and thats an objective argument, and has nothing to do with him signing with the leafs.

 

[The Wizard of Oz]

Great player but clearly not at the level of a hall of fame talent and shouldn’t be there. He’s a poor man’s Mike Modano. If he wins a cup or breaks the GP record I suspect he gets in on sentimental reasons so if you want to see him in there I’d be rooting for that.

 

[JeremyTB]

Uhh. Im a leafs fan and saying he is borderline. I could care less about his last two years, hes a depth player for the leafs.

Fact is, the standards for the hall are such that he wouldnt be out of place (recent inductees include andreychuk, recchi, mark howe, dino ciccarelli). Say what you will about the standards but he has many years in the top 10 in scoring, one top 10 in hart voting and two top 10 in selke voting, plus two olympic gold medals. Plus incredible career totals. Compare to ciccarelli. Never an elite scorer, never any eeal hart or selke voting, no international success, and his point totals are only marginally higher right now despite playing mostly in the highest scoring era in history.

No one, including leaf fans will tell you he ever reached the status of being a top 5 or 10 player in the nhl. But you cant find many players with that resume that are not in the hall of fame, thats all thats said, and thats an objective argument, and has nothing to do with him signing with the leafs.

"He has many years in the top 10 scoring"

I don't think that is accurate. The most points he had in a season is 86 and that was only good enough for 18th that season. I am not sure he has ever finished in the top 10.

 

[joe dirte]

"He has many years in the top 10 scoring"

I don't think that is accurate. The most points he had in a season is 86 and that was only good enough for 18th that season. I am not sure he has ever finished in the top 10.

Yeah, as more of a goal scorer, he placed much better in goal totals. I wasn't specifically speaking to point totals.

in 05/06 he was 18th, and just outside the top 20 in goals.
08/09 11th in goals. (and missed 6 games, some due to personal issues)
09/10 4th in goals, 11th in points.
10/11 5th in goals, 15th in points.
13/14 11th in goals, 16th in points.

so 2 in the top 5, and a couple one out of top 10 of goal scoring.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

He’s in.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Even adjusted, Gartner has more top 10 goal finishes than Marleau. But I hate using adjusted stats. They aren’t “real” stats.

Why would you adjust to see their top 10 finishes?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I like that Leafs fans push for Marleau for the HOF purely because he's been on their team for soon to be 2 seasons.

I'd like to see the alternate timeline where he never is on the Leafs to see if they still do it. I think I already know the answer.

Is pointing out the fact that he has a chance based on the past "pushing" for him or merely stating a fact? If you read, many people said they wouldn't put him in based on their own estimation but merely made the point that based on the past, he has a legitimate chance, though wouldn't be a strong candidate.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Uhh. Im a leafs fan and saying he is borderline. I could care less about his last two years, hes a depth player for the leafs.

Fact is, the standards for the hall are such that he wouldnt be out of place (recent inductees include andreychuk, recchi, mark howe, dino ciccarelli). Say what you will about the standards but he has many years in the top 10 in scoring, one top 10 in hart voting and two top 10 in selke voting, plus two olympic gold medals. Plus incredible career totals. Compare to ciccarelli. Never an elite scorer, never any eeal hart or selke voting, no international success, and his point totals are only marginally higher right now despite playing mostly in the highest scoring era in history.

No one, including leaf fans will tell you he ever reached the status of being a top 5 or 10 player in the nhl. But you cant find many players with that resume that are not in the hall of fame, thats all thats said, and thats an objective argument, and has nothing to do with him signing with the leafs.

Mark Howe!? Are you actually comparing a borderline at best HOF candidate in Marleau with Mark Howe - one of the best defensemen of the 80s and probably a top 20-30 D-Man of all-time?!

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Uhh. Im a leafs fan and saying he is borderline. I could care less about his last two years, hes a depth player for the leafs.

Fact is, the standards for the hall are such that he wouldnt be out of place (recent inductees include andreychuk, recchi, mark howe, dino ciccarelli). Say what you will about the standards but he has many years in the top 10 in scoring, one top 10 in hart voting and two top 10 in selke voting, plus two olympic gold medals. Plus incredible career totals. Compare to ciccarelli. Never an elite scorer, never any eeal hart or selke voting, no international success, and his point totals are only marginally higher right now despite playing mostly in the highest scoring era in history.

No one, including leaf fans will tell you he ever reached the status of being a top 5 or 10 player in the nhl. But you cant find many players with that resume that are not in the hall of fame, thats all thats said, and thats an objective argument, and has nothing to do with him signing with the leafs.

ummm, what?

Marleau has NEVER finished top 10 in scoring in a season

9th and 10th place finishes dont mean squat in awards voting. Those only mean a handful of voters threw you 4th and 5th place votes.

Winning Olympic gold on Team Canada doesn't mean much unless you are a top performer on the team (hint: he wasn't)

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I think an obvious thing that gets overlooked in this discussion is the "contribution to the game" part. Mats Sundin was a very similar example. Never among the elite on a season to season basis, definitely a compiler. But the HHOF criteria use to talk more in depth on some of the individual criteria and what would have helped Sundin's case a lot was his international achievements and "contribution to the game" (impossible to argue he didn't do a lot to grow the game in his area.

My guess is Marleau will also benefit from this, by pure fluke of where he played the game. The league has sought long and hard to grow the game in the US non-traditional markets. In part for money, in part to increase the talent pool. It's why we have players like Auston Matthews. In that regard, Marleau has probably done a lot. In terms of San Jose:

• San Jose Sharks' all-time leader in goals — 508

• San Jose Sharks' all-time leader in even-strength goals — 331

• San Jose Sharks' all-time leader in power-play goals — 160

• San Jose Sharks' all-time leader in shorthanded goals — 17

• San Jose Sharks' all-time leader in game-winning goals — 98

• San Jose Sharks' all-time leader in points — 1,082

• San Jose Sharks' all-time leader in shots — 3,798

• San Jose Sharks' all-time leader in games played — 1,493

• San Jose Sharks' all-time leader in consecutive games played — 624

• Most seasons of 10+ goals scored as a San Jose Shark — 19

• Most seasons of 20+ goals scored as a San Jose Shark — 14

• Most seasons of 30+ goals scored as a San Jose Shark — 7

• Became the fastest San Jose Shark to 10 goals in franchise history (6 games).

• Became the fastest San Jose Shark to 30 goals in franchise history (47 games).

• Became the first San Jose Shark to score 4 goals in a single period (3rd) on January 23, 2017 (against Colorado).

• Became the first (and only) San Jose Shark to score 500 goals with the team on February 2, 2017

He'll be well remembered there and there are likely many kids in the South who will have taken up the sport looking at someone like him.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

ummm, what?

Marleau has NEVER finished top 10 in scoring in a season

9th and 10th place finishes dont mean squat in awards voting. Those only mean a handful of voters threw you 4th and 5th place votes.

Winning Olympic gold on Team Canada doesn't mean much unless you are a top performer on the team (hint: he wasn't)

Is he talking points or goals? He's finished 4th and 6th in scoring goals.

He was 4th in scoring (points) in 2014 Olympics.

 

[joe dirte]

ummm, what?

Marleau has NEVER finished top 10 in scoring in a season

9th and 10th place finishes dont mean squat in awards voting. Those only mean a handful of voters threw you 4th and 5th place votes.

Winning Olympic gold on Team Canada doesn't mean much unless you are a top performer on the team (hint: he wasn't)

If winning an olympic gold medal for canada doesnt mean much that must mean those who couldnt even make team canada are pretty garbage players.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Why would you adjust to see their top 10 finishes?

Because people have been using adjusted stats to benefit Marleau. I was just pointing out that even then, Gartner.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I think an obvious thing that gets overlooked in this discussion is the "contribution to the game" part. Mats Sundin was a very similar example. Never among the elite on a season to season basis, definitely a compiler. But the HHOF criteria use to talk more in depth on some of the individual criteria and what would have helped Sundin's case a lot was his international achievements and "contribution to the game" (impossible to argue he didn't do a lot to grow the game in his area.

My guess is Marleau will also benefit from this, by pure fluke of where he played the game. The league has sought long and hard to grow the game in the US non-traditional markets. In part for money, in part to increase the talent pool. It's why we have players like Auston Matthews. In that regard, Marleau has probably done a lot. In terms of San Jose:

• San Jose Sharks' all-time leader in goals — 508

• San Jose Sharks' all-time leader in even-strength goals — 331

• San Jose Sharks' all-time leader in power-play goals — 160

• San Jose Sharks' all-time leader in shorthanded goals — 17

• San Jose Sharks' all-time leader in game-winning goals — 98

• San Jose Sharks' all-time leader in points — 1,082

• San Jose Sharks' all-time leader in shots — 3,798

• San Jose Sharks' all-time leader in games played — 1,493

• San Jose Sharks' all-time leader in consecutive games played — 624

• Most seasons of 10+ goals scored as a San Jose Shark — 19

• Most seasons of 20+ goals scored as a San Jose Shark — 14

• Most seasons of 30+ goals scored as a San Jose Shark — 7

• Became the fastest San Jose Shark to 10 goals in franchise history (6 games).

• Became the fastest San Jose Shark to 30 goals in franchise history (47 games).

• Became the first San Jose Shark to score 4 goals in a single period (3rd) on January 23, 2017 (against Colorado).

• Became the first (and only) San Jose Shark to score 500 goals with the team on February 2, 2017

He'll be well remembered there and there are likely many kids in the South who will have taken up the sport looking at someone like him.

Did you just say Sundin was a compiler and never elite on a season to season basis? Are you being serious?

 

[Rubi]

Not an HOF'er... cup or no cup. Way too many better players out there that even after a number of years still haven't been inducted into the HOF. Marleau won't even get a sniff at it.

Non-HOF'ers

Keith Tkachuk - Retired in 2010. 18-year career, and in that time, he scored 538 goals and 1,065 points in 1201 games. Tkachuk is the 5th highest scoring American player in NHL history

Alexander Mogilny - Retired in 2006. 16 seasons in the NHL. He scored 473 goals and 1,032 points in just 990 games

Pierre Turgeon - Retired in 2007. 19 seasons. 1,294 games in which he scored 515 goals and 1,327 points.

Steve Larmer - Retired in 1995. 1,006 games where he scored 441 goals and 1,012 points.

Theoren Fleury - Retired in 2003. Scored 455 goals and 1,088 points in 1,084 games.

Rod Brind’Amour - Retired in 2010. 20 seasons - 1,484 games. 452 goals and 1184 pts.

 

[Dustin]

Not an HOF'er... cup or no cup. Way too many better players out there that even after a number of years still haven't been inducted into the HOF. Marleau won't even get a sniff at it.

Non-HOF'ers

Keith Tkachuk - Retired in 2010. 18-year career, and in that time, he scored 538 goals and 1,065 points in 1201 games. Tkachuk is the 5th highest scoring American player in NHL history

Alexander Mogilny - Retired in 2006. 16 seasons in the NHL. He scored 473 goals and 1,032 points in just 990 games

Paul Kariya - Retired in 2010. 989 games he scored 402 goals and 989 points

Pierre Turgeon - Retired in 2007. 19 seasons. 1,294 games in which he scored 515 goals and 1,327 points.

Steve Larmer - Retired in 1995. 1,006 games where he scored 441 goals and 1,012 points.

Theoren Fleury - Retired in 2003. Scored 455 goals and 1,088 points in 1,084 games.

Rod Brind’Amour - Retired in 2010. 20 seasons - 1,484 games. 452 goals and 1184 pts.

I don't understand this logic. I would argue all of those players should be in and players in the future with similar careers should be as well. Marleau or future candidates shouldn't be punished because previous good candidates never made it.

 

[Rubi]

I don't understand this logic. I would argue all of those players should be in and players in the future with similar careers should be as well. Marleau or future candidates shouldn't be punished because previous good candidates never made it.

My logic is that if those players can't make it into the HOF its very unlikely that Marleau will. Marleau isn't better than any of those players and not as good as most.... and some of those players have even won the Cup.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I don't understand this logic. I would argue all of those players should be in and players in the future with similar careers should be as well. Marleau or future candidates shouldn't be punished because previous good candidates never made it.

It’s not punishing a player by pointing out how inferior he is compared to his peers. You seem to be confusing the two.

The only thing Marleau has over all those guys is more points based on playing more games, but he was never a better or more skilled player.

 

[Dustin]

My logic is that if those players can't make it into the HOF its very unlikely that Marleau will. Marleau isn't better than any of those players and not as good as most.... and some of those players have even won the Cup.

I don't think cups should be a defining marker to get into the Hall or not. Being a big part should be a plus of course but not winning one shouldn't be held against you. Whether he is worse than this players or not is not Marleau's issue. Are there players in the Hall that are worse than Marleau. I would say that debatable.

 

[Dustin]

It’s not punishing a player by pointing out how inferior he is compared to his peers. You seem to be confusing the two.

The only thing Marleau has over all those guys is more points based on playing more games, but he was never a better or more skilled player.

Are there any guys in the Hall that could be debated that they are in the same tier as Marleau. I think so.

The same way we can use players that have not made the Hall to keep him out, we can use the reverse argument that players that are in that are similar to Marleau should allow him in.

 

[Rubi]

I don't think cups should be a defining marker to get into the Hall or not. Being a big part should be a plus of course but not winning one shouldn't be held against you. Whether he is worse than this players or not is not Marleau's issue. Are there players in the Hall that are worse than Marleau. I would say that debatable.

Actually I don't think its debatable at all. There are players in the HOF that aren't/weren't as good as Marleau.
Unfortunately for Marleau, the bar has been raised considerably higher in recent years and only 4 players (maximum) can be inducted into the HOF each year. With approximately 700 NHL players currently playing there are just too many exceptional ones out there vying for HOF entry that the good ones just don't get in any more.
For a person to be inducted to the Hockey Hall of Fame, they must be nominated by an elected 18-person selection committee. Each committee member is allowed to nominate one person in each category per year, and candidates must receive the support of 75% of the members of the committee that are present, or a minimum of ten votes.

 

[Dustin]

Actually I don't think its debatable at all. There are players in the HOF that aren't/weren't as good as Marleau.
Unfortunately for Marleau, the bar has been raised considerably higher in recent years and only 4 players (maximum) can be inducted into the HOF each year. With approximately 700 NHL players currently playing there are just too many exceptional ones out there vying for HOF entry that the good ones just don't get in any more.
For a person to be inducted to the Hockey Hall of Fame, they must be nominated by an elected 18-person selection committee. Each committee member is allowed to nominate one person in each category per year, and candidates must receive the support of 75% of the members of the committee that are present, or a minimum of ten votes.

I guess we'll see. I certainly don't think he's a first ballot. Far from it. That being said Housley was a questionable inductee not too long ago.

I'm not going to cry if he doesn't get in. To be honest I'm not the biggest Marleau fan. That being said if there are players that are close I would rather they get nominated. As for as I'm concerned I'm less worried about bad players making it as opposed to worthy players being left out.