Does Fighting Deter Other Nasty Business?

[colchar]

The only problem nowadays is that these hits usually lead to a fight no matter how clean. We need guys who can throw these hits then stand up afterwards and answer for them.

Why should anyone have to answer for a good, clean hit? In the good old days if you got tagged (because you had your head down in the neutral zone or whatever) that was it. Nowadays even perfectly clean hits result in crap. Man up and take the hit or, at worst, take his number and hit him back later on.

If things had always been like this guys like Larry Robinson would have had to fight after every hit they threw and would've spent their careers in the penalty box.

 

[colchar]

My problem with fighting in hockey is not so much the fighting itself, but the plethora of rationalizations that are used. To me, fighting is reactionary, it's for entertainment and team cohesion. I just dislike when people start talking trying to make it much more than that, where it's a requirement otherwise your skilled players won't dare to do anything or there will be a free-for-all for cheapshots. These things just doesn't seem to have any support other than the anecdotal.

I'm not going to argue that fighting should be abolished. I just wish people would be comfortable saying "I like fighting because it's fun, and the team seem to feel good about it", instead of conjuring up horror stories where it's the only thing that'll keep Marner from being hospitalized on a consistent basis.

If you think the only reasons for fighting are entertainment and team cohesion then you clearly aren't paying attention.

 

[Stephen]

I'm not envisioning Matt Martin as a "deterrent" at all. I think of him like a battering ram. A weapon to compliment some of the other physical ingredients we've already assembled. Komarov comes in to agitate. Martin comes in to pancake. Helps tenderize the opponent throughout a game, throughout a playoff series.

 

[colchar]

Fighting legitimately did deter nasty business for much of hockey history in my opinion

You clearly haven't watched any hockey from the '70s. Fighting was rampant and so was stickwork. Go youtube some Broad Street Bullies videos.

And Gordie Howe was a vicious bugger during eras when fighting was rampant.

 

[Nithoniniel]

If you think the only reasons for fighting are entertainment and team cohesion then you clearly aren't paying attention.

Name another reason then?

 

[Dough72]

not sure why the article looked at the 2012 season for evidence

I thought the main argument is that the instigator rule made fighting equally useless for all teams. To prove fighting never cut down on chippiness you'd at least have to compare stats from before the instigator rule

 

[Dough72]

I just wish people would be comfortable saying "I like fighting because it's fun, and the team seem to feel good about it", instead of conjuring up horror stories where it's the only thing that'll keep Marner from being hospitalized on a consistent basis.

it might keep people from punching him in the back of the head and hacking his legs whenver the ref isn't looking

I don't have stats to prove it because there aren't any, but imo that stuff has exploded in popularity since the rule change

 

[Pookie]

No. Not a deterrent.

Yes to being a confidence and team unity element.

 

[Pookie]

Why should anyone have to answer for a good, clean hit? In the good old days if you got tagged (because you had your head down in the neutral zone or whatever) that was it. Nowadays even perfectly clean hits result in crap. Man up and take the hit or, at worst, take his number and hit him back later on...

I think this is bit of an urban legend.

I can think of two examples.

Right now the '93 Leafs vs Wings series is on Leafs Tv. Gilmour came across the middle with his head down, got tagged. And Clark stood up for him.

And Wendel while playing a game in St Louis tagged Bell behind the net and had to drop his gloves immediately. The fight never happened as Clark pointed to Bell who needed medical attention but hit and answer was clearly the equation.

 

[Mess]

I'm not envisioning Matt Martin as a "deterrent" at all. I think of him like a battering ram. A weapon to compliment some of the other physical ingredients we've already assembled. Komarov comes in to agitate. Martin comes in to pancake. Helps tenderize the opponent throughout a game, throughout a playoff series.

Matt Martin will lead the league in hits and the opposition will lead the league in bruises as a result of said hits and will be wearing his gloves the majority of the time.

 

[Mess]

If you have a Pitbull in your back yard it tends to deter Buglers, simply by its presence.

If you have toughness in your line-up it has the similar effect.

 

[Menzinger]

No.

You'd think headshot after headshot in recent years would show how little fighting works as a deterrent. I'm sure the claim that it worked as such 30 years ago, but the league's moved on from then. And I'm just fine with that - I was sick and tied of seeing teams waste roster spots on goons. As the league increases the penalties for illegal moves it will work far better at cutting down illegal behaviour than fitting ever did.

With all that said, doubt Martin was brought in to fight, Babcock wanted a guy with some physicality (hitting, using his body, not so much face punching) on his 4th line and then got one of the better guys available for him. He's not going to stop anyone taking a run at Matthews or Nylander.

 

[Leafsman]

Why should anyone have to answer for a good, clean hit? In the good old days if you got tagged (because you had your head down in the neutral zone or whatever) that was it. Nowadays even perfectly clean hits result in crap. Man up and take the hit or, at worst, take his number and hit him back later on.

If things had always been like this guys like Larry Robinson would have had to fight after every hit they threw and would've spent their careers in the penalty box.

I agree whole-heartedly! A good clean hit is a part of the game and usually the fault of the hitee. They should man-up like you said and learn to keep their head up.

A dirty hit should be dealt with accordingly, and generally is. That really hasn't changed, except maybe the odd instigator penalty.

But that is not the way it works nowadays, players have to fight even after a clean hit. So we need players who can play that way and answer the call for even good clean hits for and also answer the call for dirty hits against.

 

[studebaker17]

I think this is bit of an urban legend.

I can think of two examples.

Right now the '93 Leafs vs Wings series is on Leafs Tv. Gilmour came across the middle with his head down, got tagged. And Clark stood up for him.

And Wendel while playing a game in St Louis tagged Bell behind the net and had to drop his gloves immediately. The fight never happened as Clark pointed to Bell who needed medical attention but hit and answer was clearly the equation.

93 , 3rd rd against the kings , McSorley caught Killer with his head down and Clark immediately went after him.
Legend has it or the story was the next yr in the 3rd rd Gino Odjick was taking runs at Gilmour until Clark told him he was going after Bure if he cont. Don't know if that's a true story but wouldn't surprise me.

Back to your point , it does seem like it's a little extreme now where every decent hit ends up in a scrum at least if not a fight. I think before it happened but more on the truly huge hits.

 

[Babcocks Marner]

Seems to be dying in modern hockey.

But, back in the day... for sure.... pretty sure Probert made just about anyone think twice.

PS: Martin isn't really a fighter.

 

[Mad Brills*]

The one thing I hate about fighting is incidents like phaneuf/staal where a clean hit causes a fight.

 

[Mess]

If the NHL becomes the No Hit League we might as well all just watch figure skating.

 

[Babcocks Marner]

The one thing I hate about fighting is incidents like phaneuf/staal where a clean hit causes a fight.

I would assume that a lot of the time, when you stand up for a teammate, you have no idea if it was clean or not. That would most likely be knowledge gained after the fact. Things happen so fast out there.

 

[Mad Brills*]

If the NHL becomes the No Hit League we might as well all just watch figure skating.

I like hitting. I don't like fighting.


There can be a difference...

 

[Mr Hockey*]

The one thing I hate about fighting is incidents like phaneuf/staal where a clean hit causes a fight.

Nobody likes to see there bro get crushed ... is life

 

[studebaker17]

Seems to be dying in modern hockey.

But, back in the day... for sure.... pretty sure Probert made just about anyone think twice.

PS: Martin isn't really a fighter.

The dedicated fighters always seem to thrive after a large expansion like in the 70's, died down a bit by the late 70's then wha expansion watered the league down a bit then early 90's again.

 

[Mess]

I like hitting. I don't like fighting.

There can be a difference...

Well then you should love Martin because he leads the league in that category.

Hits Leaders: 2015-16 NHL Season

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nhl/stats/player-hits-statistics/2015/

Hits by year http://www.sportingcharts.com/nhl/p...eType=279588574&SeasonMax=9999&SeasonMin=1990

 

[ErnieLeafs]

There's nothing wrong with a good scrap, or enjoying one. It makes the game unique.

 

[Menzinger]

The one thing I hate about fighting is incidents like phaneuf/staal where a clean hit causes a fight.

Yeah - I never liked that. I understand the emotion of the players involved but still, not a fan.

 

[moon111]

The Big E speaks of fear of getting hurt. Personally use to do all kinds of BMX stunts, etc. Got hurt and couldn't push it any further. Someone else I rode with got hurt multiple times and never seemed to bother him and he went on to win the X-games. The fear can creep up on anyone. Worrying about getting in a fight or getting hit, it will take you out of the game.

In Game 7 of the Eastern Conference final, Lindros was knocked out by Scott Stevens with the kind of hit that got Stevens into the Hall of Fame but would have earned him a long suspension in today’s NHL. It left Lindros curled on the ice in the fetal position. His career would never be the same. “I certainly did not play as well during the latter stages of my career,†Lindros says. “I hated going through the middle. I had huge fears. It’s tough going from being so assertive – you never show any cracks – to having an ‘X’ on your back. Players who would have never spoken or taken liberties in the past, it was happening all the time. I had a fear of cutting through the middle. Absolutely. Could I still shoot and pass? I could still score, but it wasn’t the same game.†Source: http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/t...appy-after-blazing-a-trail-for-player-safety/