Does Dubas deserve the blame for trading their 1st round pick to get rid of Marleau?

[All Mod Cons]

Agreed

Which was also Dubas position as well, that if he wanted JT he knew other sacrifices both assets and cap management issues needed to follow it.

Dubas was fully aware that this decision had cap consequences and is willing to live with them accordingly.

Its not Dubas trying to erase nor blame others for his actions, this seems to be only contained to message board posters trying to absolve him for some reason. Knowing what he knows today after all the 3 amigos are signed, Dubas likely again would sign JT all over again and accept the cost to do so. IMO

100% agree. You do it again. But Kyle is 100% accountable for the Marleau trade. To suggest anyone else is, is being overly pro-Dubas.

 

[Apex Predator]

Agreed

Which was also Dubas position as well, that if he wanted JT he knew other sacrifices both assets and cap management issues needed to follow it.

Dubas was fully aware that this decision had cap consequences and is willing to live with them accordingly.

Its not Dubas trying to erase nor blame others for his actions, this seems to be only contained to message board posters trying to absolve him for some reason. Knowing what he knows today after all the 3 amigos are signed, Dubas likely again would sign JT all over again and accept the cost to do so. IMO

i think if Dubas could have a do over maybe it’s how he handled the Nylander contract. Hindsight being 20/20 maybe if he let him sit the other two could have come in lower. Maybe he trades him for a right handed Dman.

 

[Northernguy10]

If you don't think he went through every possible scenario with all 30 other teams then I suggest you go back to NHL 20...

 

[ACC1224]

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find many others than wouldn't sign Tavares for the cost of a mid 1st.

I’d rather Tavares AND the 1st.

 

[IPS]

So can either of you explain why Mike Babcock himself admitted that he knew Marleau would not play the 3rd and final year of his contract, so isn't that a huge red flag when you look back at Lamoriello singing him to a 3 year contract.

Mike Babcock: Toronto Maple Leafs knew Patrick Marleau wouldn't play Year 3 of contract - TSN.ca

I think it's safe to take their lack of a response as an inability to do so

Let's not let facts get in the way here.

 

[All Mod Cons]

So can either of you explain why Mike Babcock himself admitted that he knew Marleau would not play the 3rd and final year of his contract, so isn't that a huge red flag when you look back at Lamoriello singing him to a 3 year contract.

Mike Babcock: Toronto Maple Leafs knew Patrick Marleau wouldn't play Year 3 of contract - TSN.ca

Babcock is the evil anti-Christ. Can't trust a word he says. He's responsible for the coronavirus

 

[ACC1224]

So can either of you explain why Mike Babcock himself admitted that he knew Marleau would not play the 3rd and final year of his contract, so isn't that a huge red flag when you look back at Lamoriello singing him to a 3 year contract.

Mike Babcock: Toronto Maple Leafs knew Patrick Marleau wouldn't play Year 3 of contract - TSN.ca

What difference does that make? It's a problem that needed to be dealt with.
Isn't the topic of the thread essentially how Dubas dealt with it?

 

[yubbers]

So keeping a slow, 38 year old defensman who was about 50/50 on good and bad nights and looking for a raise would have been a good choice in your eyes? Regardless of whatever affect there is on Reilly, that is a good choice?

Reilly's step back and injuries are way way beyond anything Hainsey would have fixed this year and you know that. It seems that is the only thing you have to cling to because EVERYBODY agrees about the backup situation, that was the one clear fault of Dubas because we (everybody not inside management) have no idea what was actually available for signing, trades or offers.

Still havent made a list though, or is that it, those two things?

He was working just fine. We actually had a top pairing. Who Dubas then decides to replace with Cody f***ing Ceci. Anyone not in Toronto or Ottawa has no clue who he is. Oh and he's currently being litigated into oblivion for an accident at party he hosted. As someone who's been litigated (far less intensely)....it concerned me because I understand how it can be all-encompassing. That was the smarter choice? Fix what isn't broken to roll the dice on a nobody with personal issues out the ass? It's stupidity is what it is. And here we are. In the exact scenario I said would happen. Sorry for being a neurotic fan and calling something. It happens occasionally.

 

[Smif]

He was working just fine. We actually had a top pairing. Who Dubas then decides to replace with Cody ****ing Ceci. Anyone not in Toronto or Ottawa has no clue who he is. Oh and he's currently being litigated into oblivion for an accident at party he hosted. As someone who's been litigated (far less intensely)....it concerned me because I understand how it can be all-encompassing. That was the smarter choice? Fix what isn't broken to roll the dice on a nobody with personal issues out the ass? It's stupidity is what it is. And here we are. In the exact scenario I said would happen. Sorry for being a neurotic fan and calling something. It happens occasionally.

He got overpaid for his leadership and experience in Ottawa. Guaranteed if we had signed him you'd be the guy saying we should've cut him and gone with more youth.

 

[NightTrain1]

He was working just fine. We actually had a top pairing. Who Dubas then decides to replace with Cody ****ing Ceci. Anyone not in Toronto or Ottawa has no clue who he is. Oh and he's currently being litigated into oblivion for an accident at party he hosted. As someone who's been litigated (far less intensely)....it concerned me because I understand how it can be all-encompassing. That was the smarter choice? Fix what isn't broken to roll the dice on a nobody with personal issues out the ass? It's stupidity is what it is. And here we are. In the exact scenario I said would happen. Sorry for being a neurotic fan and calling something. It happens occasionally.

Aside from the fact that you are still avoiding the main argument at hand and not detailing all of the failed decisions and acquisitions and trades by Dubas to make this team worse than the one that started last season of which you had the obvious foresight of, what is your obsession with Cody Ceci? Also why do you continually say that Dubas replaced our top pairing defenseman with Ceci?

First off, Dubas doesnt place the players into the lineup and give them icetime or partners.
Second, we didnt trade Hainsey for Ceci which would be the obvious reason for such thinking but it was never a thing. We let Hainsey walk because of his age and his projected salary.
Third, we traded away what most people thought was an untrade-able contract with Zaitsev who had 4 years at 4.5million. Zaitsev who was shown time and time again to be a huge liability and far overpaid and was going to be a fan and media whipping boy forever which wasnt healthy for him. Most fans also wanted Connor Brown gone as he was a Babcock favorite for no apparent reason and brought very little to the team. What we received was a one year reclamation project with the same cost as Zaitsev but for only 1 season. This was a low risk high reward situation that has not gone super well, it also hasnt been as bad as we like to claim, certainly I would agree it would be a straightup wash with Zaitsev on the ice, but team-wise it was a big win contractually.

Technically speaking it was supposed to be Muzzin that slotted into the top 2 pairing.

 

[Todd03]

Dubass should be fired he has totally ssrowed up this team.
At this point leafs will not make the playoffs in four year because of his stupid
moves.

 

[Big Muddy]

I think it's obvious that by free he meant not having to give up assets as you would if you traded for such a player.

When you give up cap space, you are giving up the asset known as cap space.

Some are looking at moving Marleau and giving up a 1st in isolation without considering other related events of significance.

I would hope our management recognized that we would ultimately need a sizable chunk of our cap just to sign our big three. Knowing that, management would need to carefully consider the impact of the other contracts & acquisitions. That was the responsibility of both Lou and Dubas, and the guy that they both reported to. The events that precipitated this situation spanned both GMs, and wasn't just a case of just one event (or GM).

I think its always wise to consider alternative strategies on how the cap should be spent. No one is forcing our management team to spend in a certain way i.e., a sizable chunk on just 4 forwards. And as mentioned, the fact we would need a big chunk reserved to sign our big three to their 2nd contracts was well known in advance. They will need consider alternatives and decide which alternatives are best for the team. That is their responsibility & they own the results.

 

[Stamkos4life]

20 threads in 1 day? Nice.

How is the guy who traded Marleau and the 1st round pick not responsible?

KD inherited a team with cap to spare. He spent to the max and then had to waste a 1st to unload one year of Marleau.

 

[lottster14]

We would be better off without him as our GM.

 

[Big Muddy]

To the bolded. There seem to be many that don't agree with that.

Since we aren't privy to all the information available all we can do is guess.
If they had moved Johnsson with Marleau why did they still need to remove 3 mil?

I just made another post on this subject.

I think looking at just this one event (trading Marleau & losing a 1st) is done in isolation without considering other events & factors.

We were tight against the cap because of a series events, not just one. And, our GMs/management would have to know that signing our big three to their 2nd contracts would need to take a sizable chunk of our cap. Then there's the specific amounts they are signed to, and terms.

All of these kinds of events & processes are the responsibility of our GMs/management. They need to consider the available alternatives and make wise decisions. I think the current situation is the result of cumulative actions by Lou + Dubas + Shanny.

And so far, without winning even one playoff round yet, we can't say we have the results that clearly demonstrate that the decisions that were made have paid off & were wise.

 

[Big Muddy]

Marleau had to go, IMO. Would have been silly to remove other pieces in order to retain him.
It's the "Dubas had no choice....." nonsense that I take issue with.

** I've seen Connor Brown mentioned in the thread. Myself, I take him every day on this team over Johnsson.

There were lots of decisions that led us to being to tight against the cap. GMs have the opportunity to consider many alternatives before they make decisions. They have choices and own the results of those choices.

 

[Big Muddy]

For me it's simple because if Lamoriello never signs Marleau or talks him into only getting 2 years, Dubas doesn't have to trade him and the 3rd year of his contract, along with their 2020 1st round pick to get rid of him.

There's always alternatives and other things that could have been done. We spent $11 m on another forward, yet knew our blueline needed some bolstering & we were without a quality backup. We act like all the problems that the team is experiencing now boiled down to this one single thing.

Hope we make the playoffs & go on a deep run. But, so far, the only result we can point to is a 1st round exit.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Mixed feeling here, because I know it was Lou who signed him, but I was perfectly fine going into this season without Marner. Maybe if Dubas didn't sign Marner to that ridiculous contract we wouldn't have had to move him.
although again we basically traded our 1st for the right to resign AJ and Kap.

I dunno who to blame but I'm not happy with how our team is now. we're locked in and screwed, hopefully that cap raises big time.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

So can either of you explain why Mike Babcock himself admitted that he knew Marleau would not play the 3rd and final year of his contract, so isn't that a huge red flag when you look back at Lamoriello singing him to a 3 year contract.

Mike Babcock: Toronto Maple Leafs knew Patrick Marleau wouldn't play Year 3 of contract - TSN.ca

Because the 3rd year is what sealed the deal for the Leafs? Was it really any different than teams signing players to terms that were two to three years too long to bring down the cap hit and eventually circumvent the cap?

It was one extra year of Marleau to swallow — not three. I don’t feel like the Leafs were at all crippled by that one extra year.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Because the 3rd year is what sealed the deal for the Leafs? Was it really any different than teams signing players to terms that were two to three years too long to bring down the cap hit and eventually circumvent the cap?

It was one extra year of Marleau to swallow — not three. I don’t feel like the Leafs were at all crippled by that one extra year.

Still right away from the moment he signed a lot of people said the 3rd year would come back to haunt them and for Babcock to say he knew Marleau would not play that year speaks to how bad a decision that was.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

Still right away from the moment he signed a lot of people said the 3rd year would come back to haunt them and for Babcock to say he knew Marleau would not play that year speaks to how bad a decision that was.

Yes, it’s bound to be said and happen when you give a guy 35+ an extra year too long. But all in all, I still firmly believe the 3rd year could have easily been eaten, even if he wasn’t expected to play by the team’s braintrust.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Yes, it’s bound to be said and happen when you give a guy 35+ an extra year too long. But all in all, I still firmly believe the 3rd year could have easily been eaten, even if he wasn’t expected to play by the team’s braintrust.

What exactly could they have done, say Marleau was "injured" and put him on LTIR? That would be hard to do since he's played 82 games each year since 2010. Even if they wanted to try that I think the league would fine them and take away draft picks, because he wasn't playing hurt with a known injury like other players who are on LTIR despite never going to play again.

 

[Zarley Zalapski]

What exactly could they have done, say Marleau was "injured" and put him on LTIR? That would be hard to do since he's played 82 games each year since 2010. Even if they wanted to try that I think the league would fine them and take away draft picks, because he wasn't playing hurt with a known injury like other players who are on LTIR despite never going to play again.

There's always options.
The Leafs could've passed on signing Tavares and instead allocated that money toward 1) buying out Marleau's final year and 2) signing a ~5 mil AAV defensemen to help upgrade the blue line.

Another option - After signing Tavares as a UFA, Dubas could've exercised the leverage every GM is afforded under the rules of the CBA regarding RFA contract negotiations. He could've gotten big cap relief had he chosen to do short term bridge deals with 1 or 2 of his 3 star RFAs. This would've freed up more than enough cap space to absorb year 3 of Marleau's deal. Instead he went for longer term deals with all 3 guys and ended up over paying all of them (relative to comparables around the league). This was especially egregious considering how few UFA years he got back in return for his overpayment.

 

[KingJoffrey]

There's always options.
The Leafs could've passed on signing Tavares and instead allocated that money toward 1) buying out Marleau's final year and 2) signing a ~5 mil AAV defensemen to help upgrade the blue line.

That Tavares signing ruined Leafs salary structure for years. Without him and his pool mark there is no way that Matthews ask for 11.6 and Marner for over 10. So now we have 11 mil Tavares + the kids who earn 4-5 mil more than should. Matthews should be at 10.2 max and Marner high 8's. Add to that Nylander didn't deserve any dollars more than Ehlers.

 

[hullsy47]

Babcock is the evil anti-Christ. Can't trust a word he says. He's responsible for the coronavirus

Well Keefe has the same problems as Babcock had
Crap goaltending and lack of urgency
Wont be long keefe will be telling dubas his 4 lines of skill players cant win
But it's scary to think if freddy didn't carry this team last 3 years
We be Edmonton east