Do you think Vladimir Konstantinov was on his way to the Hall before the accident?

[vadim sharifijanov]

I don’t know that I’d assume the worst for a player that missed just 12 games in 6 years while playing a physical game. More than that, Konstantinov’s GA numbers through 77-82 games (especially in the final two seasons of his career) look like Foote’s and Hatcher’s GA numbers in their injury years in the Dead Puck Era.

Paired with Bourque in 2001, Colorado allowed 26 GA in 35 games with Foote on the ice at even-strength. The following year on the Jennings-winning Avalanche, it was 39 GA in 55 games. Hatcher’s best were 46 GA in 70 games on 167 GA Dallas in 1998 and 42 GA in 57 games on 184 GA Dallas in 2000. Compare to the 34 GA in 81 games and 39 GA in 77 games on Detroit teams that had worse goaltending and allowed more raw GA as the lower-scoring era hadn’t hit full swing.

It’s a major contributing factor to why he doubles their plus-minus despite having played just 6 seasons.

More than that, he was Detroit’s highly-publicized answer for Peter Forsberg in the playoffs in a way that Fedorov and Chelios wouldn’t be after he was gone. Of Forsberg’s 5 combined points in the 1996 and 1997 playoff series vs. Detroit, I believe more than half came when Crawford managed to get him on the ice away from Konstantinov. So with respect to Foote on Tkachuk in 2001, I think even the playoff narratives swing in Konstantinov’s favor.

But the timing of his best two years coming against 1996 Chelios, 1996 Bourque, and 1997 Leetch could have been better. There’s a lot more vulnerability after that, so if his final seasons weren’t a fluke and he doesn’t fall off a cliff, there are worse ways to spend your 30s than collecting games on Detroit from 1998-2008 like his replacement Chelios did.

i tend to think of 1997 as a fairly weak year for defenseen, which is how leetch wins it in a landslide without scoring 100 pts and vlady and ozo squeak in their high finishes. similar to 2004, when niedermayer ran away with the norris and mccabe and aucoin finished 4 and 5.

but that’s beside the point. i certainly do have vlady’s last two years above hatcher and foote. i just meant that they all started in the same season, but vlady was four years older than foote, five years older than hatcher. are we sure he plays as long as they do? is he a sure bet to play 1,000 games?

Zubov at his peak was probably in the top 3 or 4 defencemen in the world. Phenomenal player who was considered neck and neck with lidstrom in the 90s until Nick pulled away in the mid 2000s.

this couldn’t be more different than how i remember ~ 1996 to the mid 2000s.

fwiw the norris voting agrees with my memory of those years.

Zubov couldn't hold Doughty's jock.

Back to Zubov vs Konstantinov, I think Zubov's 05-06 was the best season between the two, but Konstantinov had the next 2 best.

really? wow

This one is hard to predict. Early on, Konstantinov was actually ahead of Lidstrom, but Lidstrom really developed and then aged well to boot.

They would have made a legendary defensive pairing. When I look at Keith and Seabrook, if Lidstrom is Keith, I believe that Konstantinov brought even more to the table than Seabrook. The synergy of their pairing might have been enough to get recognition for the Hall - if you can imagine Detroit being stronger than they already were, LOL. If Konstantinov anchors his own pairing apart from Lidstrom and does really well, then he might make an even stronger case for himself.

Still, he's not a high scorer even for a d-man, so it's a bit of an uphill battle (even though I like d-men like him, myself).

afaik lidstrom and vlady weren’t a pair. lidstrom’s rookie partner was mccrimmon, then he spent several years next to coffey. vlady was paired with fetisov, who overlapped with coffey’s last two detroit years.

 

[danincanada]

afaik lidstrom and vlady weren’t a pair. lidstrom’s rookie partner was mccrimmon, then he spent several years next to coffey. vlady was paired with fetisov, who overlapped with coffey’s last two detroit years.

That’s what I recall. Bowman had Konstantinov and Lidstrom killing penalties and playing together in key defensive situation sometimes but they weren’t a regular pair under him. Konstantinov primarily played with Fetisov. I don’t remember who Lidstrom played with between Coffey being traded away and Muphy coming over. Maybe Rouse?

 

[danincanada]

Chris Chelios was 1" taller and 1lb heavier than Konstantinov:

Vladimir Konstantinov Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Chris Chelios Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Doubt that such a minor difference would impact longevity given that both were RHS, somewhat scarcer in the 1990s.

Chelios is a rare example and he did break down in his late 30’s and his play dropped with it. We remember the resurgence at 38 and 40 but he had some tougher seasons before that and had he knee operated on.

I was thinking more about Kronwall, who wasn’t as nasty as either but who delivered open ice hits. Kronwall broke down big time the last few years but he was prone to freak injuries early on too so maybe Konstantinov would be closer to the Chelios example because he was quite durable.

 

[Kevs Security]

Do you think Shea Weber is on his way to the hall of fame? There's your answer.

 

[Bustedprospect]

Yes he was progressing really nicely at the time of the accident. In his late 20s he adapted well to the game and was rarely injured even though he played hard.

The Norris is in many ways a reputation award and he was clearly getting liked by the voters. While he probably doesn't win a Norris i could see him placing high for it and at least be getting a few 2nd teams on the postseason All-Star since that era is not strong for the position of d-men.

A couple of good runs and a few cups combined with some more international play and i think the Hall would be pressed not to electing him.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

How does Zubov compare to someone like Drew Doughty?

Both had excellent gap control. Doughty was a little better at playing the man and at breaking up passes. Zubov was better in the neutral and offensive zones.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

this couldn’t be more different than how i remember ~ 1996 to the mid 2000s.

fwiw the norris voting agrees with my memory of those years.

Norris voting is a funny thing. Lidstrom was already the player we know and love by 96/97. World class at both ends of the rink. But his reputation didn’t catch up to his play until about 2002.

Zubov was the opposite. Tremendous season and two-way play in Pittsburgh in 95/96 (though his rep with the Rangers as a one way defenceman followed him to our team), then a down year with his new team the following year. After that he was back to being world class at both ends of the rink, on pace for 64 points in the ultra low scoring 98 season, and a monster in the Dallas 99 Cup win, where he went +13 despite being a PP staple.

I would say by the time 2005/06 rolled around he was no longer the same two way force, he simply feasted on the absurdly high number of PPs and increased scoring that year. He was out of the NHL shortly thereafter.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Chelios is a rare example and he did break down in his late 30’s and his play dropped with it. We remember the resurgence at 38 and 40 but he had some tougher seasons before that and had he knee operated on.

I was thinking more about Kronwall, who wasn’t as nasty as either but who delivered open ice hits. Kronwall broke down big time the last few years but he was prone to freak injuries early on too so maybe Konstantinov would be closer to the Chelios example because he was quite durable.

Bigger defencemen broke down at a higher rate, concussions aside. Effects on the hips, knees, ankles.

Pronger,Stevens,Hatcher brothers, Fetisov, K and U Samuelsson, Blake, others. Some soldiered on and madethe HHOF.

 

[danincanada]

Norris voting is a funny thing. Lidstrom was already the player we know and love by 96/97. World class at both ends of the rink. But his reputation didn’t catch up to his play until about 2002.

Zubov was the opposite. Tremendous season and two-way play in Pittsburgh in 95/96 (though his rep with the Rangers as a one way defenceman followed him to our team), then a down year with his new team the following year. After that he was back to being world class at both ends of the rink, on pace for 64 points in the ultra low scoring 98 season, and a monster in the Dallas 99 Cup win, where he went +13 despite being a PP staple.

I would say by the time 2005/06 rolled around he was no longer the same two way force, he simply feasted on the absurdly high number of PPs and increased scoring that year. He was out of the NHL shortly thereafter.

Agreed on Zubov. I think he's pretty underrated overall. If Hitchcock was okay with play him over 30 minutes per game in the Cup run on a team that was extremely tight defensively than he was doing something right. His passing and offensive talent was very obvious but at his best his all around game flew under the radar.

 

[danincanada]

Bigger defencemen broke down at a higher rate, concussions aside. Effects on the hips, knees, ankles.

Pronger,Stevens,Hatcher brothers, Fetisov, K and U Samuelsson, Blake, others. Some soldiered on and madethe HHOF.

Did Stevens really break down, concussions aside? His longevity and durability are very impressive considering the style he played.

I watched both Kronwall and Rafalski break down hard, and the latter wasn't even physical. It depends on the player but being on the small side can be detrimental as well.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Did Stevens really break down, concussions aside? His longevity and durability are very impressive considering the style he played.

I watched both Kronwall and Rafalski break down hard, and the latter wasn't even physical. It depends on the player but being on the small side can be detrimental as well.

Last three seasons before the concussion he was below par.

 

[danincanada]

Last three seasons before the concussion he was below par.

He only missed 2 games total over those 3 seasons though. Was he breaking down or just aging like all players do? He had a lot of miles on his odometer by that point. 1,868 total games by the end.

Devil?

 

[Canadiens1958]

He only missed 2 games total over those 3 seasons though. Was he breaking down or just aging like all players do? He had a lot of miles on his odometer by that point. 1,868 total games by the end.

Devil?

Performance numbers were down:

Scott Stevens Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Stevens slowed down a little in his last few years, but he was still a star; best defenseman on the best defensive team in hockey in the 2002-03 regular season. Arguably the best Devil in the first 2 rounds of the 2003 playoffs, as he totally owned LeCavalier and Thornton.

 

[quoipourquoi]

i tend to think of 1997 as a fairly weak year for defenseen, which is how leetch wins it in a landslide without scoring 100 pts and vlady and ozo squeak in their high finishes.

Don’t know if I agree. Leetch cleared Ozolinsh by 10 points, and Ozolinsh (not nearly as responsible as Leetch) cleared the field by 11 points. Given the extent to which Ozolinsh fell off when Colorado’s big stars started missing time, I’d say Leetch drew some pretty noticeable separation that didn’t create friendly waters for a 38-point defensive defenseman to get Norris votes - even if he’s on the ice for half as many goals against.


I’m not sure there’s much to learn from Konstantinov’s voting record, given how closely tied it often is to players hitting arbitrary point thresholds. That he even received the shares he did in spite of his offense is the more curious thing. In the decade that followed, who else was able to pick up All-Star selections under-50 points (let alone under 40!)? Pronger in 1998, Stevens in 2001, Chelios in 2002, Hatcher in 2003, Chara in 2004 and 2006? That’s, what, 6 names out of the next 40 defensive All-Stars?

 

[danincanada]

Stevens slowed down a little in his last few years, but he was still a star; best defenseman on the best defensive team in hockey in the 2002-03 regular season. Arguably the best Devil in the first 2 rounds of the 2003 playoffs, as he totally owned LeCavalier and Thornton.

Thanks, that's more inline with what I remembered from my more limited exposure to him.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Don’t know if I agree. Leetch cleared Ozolinsh by 10 points, and Ozolinsh (not nearly as responsible as Leetch) cleared the field by 11 points. Given the extent to which Ozolinsh fell off when Colorado’s big stars started missing time, I’d say Leetch drew some pretty noticeable separation that didn’t create friendly waters for a 38-point defensive defenseman to get Norris votes - even if he’s on the ice for half as many goals against.


I’m not sure there’s much to learn from Konstantinov’s voting record, given how closely tied it often is to players hitting arbitrary point thresholds. That he even received the shares he did in spite of his offense is the more curious thing. In the decade that followed, who else was able to pick up All-Star selections under-50 points (let alone under 40!)? Pronger in 1998, Stevens in 2001, Chelios in 2002, Hatcher in 2003, Chara in 2004 and 2006? That’s, what, 6 names out of the next 40 defensive All-Stars?

in general i agree that vlady was excellent and it’s a massive feather in his cap that he has the two high finishes as a primarily defensive defenseman. moreso that it wasn’t a points-boosted one off, like hatcher.

but 1997 was also odd in that it’s theonly year in almost a decade not dominated by at least three of bourque, chelios, coffey, stevens, macinnis, and leetch, or some combination of those guys and lidstrom, pronger, and blake in their primes. in that sense, i’m more impressed by konstantinov hanging with the big boys in 1996.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

to be clear, konstantinov in 96 finishing behind chelios in a 70+ point year, bourque in a point/game year, and leetch in his second best offensive season should be no surprise. him finishing ahead of teammates coffey at just under a point/game and lidstrom clearing 65 points is very impressive and is a testament to how good he was.

him being in the pack with ozo and 50 point chelios, and ahead of sub-60 point lidstrom and injured bourque seems like the lesser achievement. i say this, as i think you’re also doing qpq, factoring in for voters’ reliance on arbitrary statistical thresholds.

 

[quoipourquoi]

in general i agree that vlady was excellent and it’s a massive feather in his cap that he has the two high finishes as a primarily defensive defenseman. moreso that it wasn’t a points-boosted one off, like hatcher.

but 1997 was also odd in that it’s theonly year in almost a decade not dominated by at least three of bourque, chelios, coffey, stevens, macinnis, and leetch, or some combination of those guys and lidstrom, pronger, and blake in their primes. in that sense, i’m more impressed by konstantinov hanging with the big boys in 1996.

Oh, in terms of the field as a whole in 1996-97? Totally agree. I wasn’t sure if I was responding to a slight on the winning season from Brian Leetch as an individual mark, which I thought was the best season from a defenseman in the gap between 1996 and 2000 and would have won in any of 1997, 1998, and 1999 (though 1999 Al MacInnis would have been substantially closer than 1997 Sandis Ozolinsh).

Having said that, I don’t know that Vladimir Konstantinov places as far back in 1997 (the Ozolinsh grouping) as he did if not for the Red Wings’ very obvious tumble down the standings (that based on the numbers had little to do with any difference in Konstantinov’s performance from the previous year). A 37-point dip in the standings wouldn’t have anyone antsy to vote for a Detroit player in any category.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Oh, in terms of the field as a whole in 1996-97? Totally agree. I wasn’t sure if I was responding to a slight on the winning season from Brian Leetch as an individual mark, which I thought was the best season from a defenseman in the gap between 1996 and 2000 and would have won in any of 1997, 1998, and 1999 (though 1999 Al MacInnis would have been substantially closer than 1997 Sandis Ozolinsh).

actually i was slighting 1997 leetch somewhat. was he really better in 97 than 96, when he finished a distant third to bourque and cheli?

i can’t say i followed the late 90s rangers, but i do remember they were considered a stronger team in 96, when messier to his last hart-conversation season. i have to assume leetch should get at least some of the credit for that team’s last real hurrah in 96, and by extension some of the responsibility for its decline even with a gretzky/mess 1-2?

i do remember thinking in 97 that that was a points norris, but that’s as a pretty passive observer. but you seem to remember more closely than i do?

 

[Sadekuuro]

As a fan, and thus perhaps with an overly rosy view, I still see him as entirely borderline. Had you asked me a week before the limo accident if he was worthy of enshrinement, I would have responded that it depends entirely on what the rest of his prime looks like. As such, his grade is an "incomplete" -- not enough data to answer the question definitively because it is contingent on performances we never got to see.

 

[Grimm]

Zubov at his peak was probably in the top 3 or 4 defencemen in the world. Phenomenal player who was considered neck and neck with lidstrom in the 90s until Nick pulled away in the mid 2000s.

In an era with Lidstrom, Stevens, Leetch, Bourque, Chelios, Niedermeyer....

He's not top 3

 

[Dingo]

Chris Chelios was 1" taller and 1lb heavier than Konstantinov:

Vladimir Konstantinov Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Chris Chelios Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Doubt that such a minor difference would impact longevity given that both were RHS, somewhat scarcer in the 1990s.

I’ve always thought the two of the, were physical comparables. (Chelios even being the ceiling of what Vlad may have become.) sinewy, mean little defensmen able to take on anyone, ala Rocky Marciano. Durable, conditioned, meansspirited.....

Durable? Ya. I think Vlad would have held up just fine. He was never supposed to walk again, either. Too mentally strong, and physically strong in a small package. Tim Horton, Marciano, every underweight rugby hooker and every little pit bull-type guy... that was Vlad.

 

[Big Phil]

Might be a bit like Todd Bertuzzi where as he was PLAYING at a HHOF level at that time, but would it have been enough? Would he have had the career? Hard to say. He finished 2nd and 4th for the Norris his last two years, has a wonderful Cup run in 1997, wins it, then the crash happens. I don't know, judging on his career projection he could have had lots of very good years remaining.

 

[Howie Hodge]

He was no Leo Boivin....