Do we have any hope of winning a Stanley Cup without an elite center?

Nac Mac Feegle

wee & free
Jun 10, 2011
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Winning a Cup is just as much about luck as the team roster.

You need to get 4 matchups that favor your team, some timely bounces, avoid injuries, and have a few unexpected guys play the games of their lives.
 

mcnorth

Registered User
Jun 28, 2011
4,266
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We're close:

Hoffman Scores! - Zibanejad Beasting - Ryan is Better than Silf
Legit Top 6 LW - Turris Came to Play - Stone is Hot
MacArthur Playing to Win -This Guy Can Play C- Hey Nice Work
Condra Scored on a Breakaway -Pageau Pageau Pageau Pageau -Lazar Belongs
Smith Spooking Kadri

Methot is Healthy - King Karlsson
Good Stuff LD - Ceci End to End
Cowen Figured it Out!-Out of Nowhere RD!
Boro is Ready

Anderson is Awesome this Year (is it odd years? or even years?)
Hammond Hamburglaring

Cameron Figured out the Power Play
Bryan Murray almost spilled his Tim Horton's/gnomish grin

See - that's a good team!
 

DrunkUncleDenis

Condra Fan
Mar 27, 2012
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We're close:

Hoffman Scores! - Zibanejad Beasting - Ryan is Better than Silf
Legit Top 6 LW - Turris Came to Play - Stone is Hot
MacArthur Playing to Win -This Guy Can Play C- Hey Nice Work
Condra Scored on a Breakaway -Pageau Pageau Pageau Pageau -Lazar Belongs
Smith Spooking Kadri

Methot is Healthy - King Karlsson
Good Stuff LD - Ceci End to End
Cowen Figured it Out!-Out of Nowhere RD!
Boro is Ready

Anderson is Awesome this Year (is it odd years? or even years?)
Hammond Hamburglaring

Cameron Figured out the Power Play
Bryan Murray almost spilled his Tim Horton's/gnomish grin

See - that's a good team!

:handclap:
 

BigBush*

Guest
We're close:

Hoffman Scores! - Zibanejad Beasting - Ryan is Better than Silf
Legit Top 6 LW - Turris Came to Play - Stone is Hot
MacArthur Playing to Win -This Guy Can Play C- Hey Nice Work
Condra Scored on a Breakaway -Pageau Pageau Pageau Pageau -Lazar Belongs
Smith Spooking Kadri

Methot is Healthy - King Karlsson
Good Stuff LD - Ceci End to End
Cowen Figured it Out!-Out of Nowhere RD!
Boro is Ready

Anderson is Awesome this Year (is it odd years? or even years?)
Hammond Hamburglaring

Cameron Figured out the Power Play
Bryan Murray almost spilled his Tim Horton's/gnomish grin

See - that's a good team!

Yes, good forward group.

Remember though, MacArthur has been the teams most consistent winger over the past 2 seasons. Moving him down to the third line isn't realistic.
 

mcnorth

Registered User
Jun 28, 2011
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Remember though, MacArthur has been the teams most consistent winger over the past 2 seasons. Moving him down to the third line isn't realistic.

If we can move Mac down to the 'third line' - it means we're very good. That's what we'd need to be able to do to win a Cup, move some of our current better players into 'lesser' roles because other players are stepping in or stepping up and making the team as a whole more competitive. Honestly, as much as I love Griz, if he's our best LW we're probably not legit.
 

DrunkUncleDenis

Condra Fan
Mar 27, 2012
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If we can move Mac down to the 'third line' - it means we're very good. That's what we'd need to be able to do to win a Cup, move some of our current better players into 'lesser' roles because other players are stepping in or stepping up and making the team as a whole more competitive. Honestly, as much as I love Griz, if he's our best LW we're probably not legit.

Yes, if Hoffman stays on the team and we add another winger (which should be a LW given Ryan and Stone on the right) Mac is the one to move out of the top 6.

Conversely, if we replace Hoffman with a better RW, then Mac would stay in the top 6.

You're right though, if we're moving Mac to the third line, we're in great shape offensively.
 

BonHoonLayneCornell

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Oct 16, 2006
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When Murray said he wanted to get another top 6 player, he said he hopes to push a guy or two out of the top 6 and down the lineup where they fit better. He didn't say who he was referring to but it's pretty clear that it's either Mac or Hoffman. No way it's Stone, Ryan, Zib or Turris.
 

Sensinitis

Registered User
Aug 5, 2012
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Yes.

I see Zib/Turris as very similar to Stepan/Brassard. Perhaps better depending on Zbad.

Rangers seem to be doing pretty well. Like others have said, our D is a bigger question mark as of now. I have faith in Wier though.
 

source

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Jul 13, 2008
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Our first priority needs to be to upgrade the D. We have some youth at centre that is promising, but Borowiecki-Gryba needs to go.
 

Iamok

Registered User
Oct 20, 2010
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Yes.

I see Zib/Turris as very similar to Stepan/Brassard. Perhaps better depending on Zbad.

Rangers seem to be doing pretty well. Like others have said, our D is a bigger question mark as of now. I have faith in Wier though.

Absolutely. The biggest difference is the Rangers also have more high-end talent on the wings and on the back-end.
 

Busboy

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Jul 29, 2011
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See now one reason I am not too worried about our defense is that unlike our forward group, we already have a bonafide superstar on our blueline.

Methot is a solid top pair dman, and Ceci already looks good and will get better. So we really just need another top 4 D and we'll be more or less set.

This is how I see it too. We already have one of the best top pairings in the league. Ceci is capable of playing as a #4 at a young age so all we're missing is a #3 guy. Not super easy to find, but not impossible either. We also have depth at D and enough solid bottom pairing guys.

So basically the D isn't good enough now, but if we're projecting for the future (next 2-5 years) then I'm not overly concerned since we all ready have most of what we need in place.
 

Lenny the Lynx

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Sep 20, 2008
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We should try and get a guy like Spezza. I think a young roster player, a prospect, and some AHL scrub should do it given his defensive issues, injury history, contract etc
 

tony d

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Jun 23, 2007
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Derek Stepan's the Rangers #1 centre, they're my favourites to win the Cup so no a #1 centre is not needed for a Cup win.
 

ReginKarlssonLehner

Let's Win It All
May 3, 2010
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If Zibanejad can reach 60+ points with the physical and defensive game he plays, that's essentially an elite C like the Bergerons and Kopitars.

Zibanejad(developed)+Turris > Toews+Shaw, Stepan+Brassard, uh i unno who else.

Anyway, for someone saying we need star forward, it's Stone. Could be Ryan and Zibanejad too but Stone IMO will be superstar forward. Hoffman could be too, imo(30 goal 60+ point guy with game breaking ability).

I ain't worried. Let's see what Zibanejad can become first.
 

Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk

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Jul 13, 2006
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Pierre McGuire is mostly eye-rolling but one thing he has right is the "Seven Player Profile":

The 7 player profile as he listed:

1. #1 all star center (Missing)

2. #2 all star center (Missing)

3. Top power forward (Missing)

4. Specialist/Utility Player/Agitator/Shutdown center (Lazar/Smith)

5. All star offensive d-man (Karlsson)

6. Top shutdown d-man (Methot)

7. All star goalie (Anderson)

So if Murray is using this profile, I can see why he thinks they need an upgrade at forward. Turris isn't an all-star level centre but he is quite a respectable #1A centre. Ryan isn't a power forward but Stone might be.

The team is close, but it has too much dead cap space in Phillips, Neil, Legwand, Greening, etc. This is Murray's biggest issue, he overpays and falls in love with small sample sizes (as brilliantly denoted by another poster). Greening one good year and he vastly overpays. Hammond one good third of season and three year deal. Cowen idealized potential and big deal. Murray really likes plugs/depth guys that are replacement level. Those are basically dispensable and easily acquirable off the free agent heap or internally.

Until Murray steps aside for a more cap-astute general manager that can cut the cord with average players, the team will be a bubble team forever.
 

SAK11

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Oct 4, 2011
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I don't think you need an elite centre, you need a collection of good players with at least a few great ones and you need to be solid in all three areas- goaltending, defense, and offense. The Rangers have good centre depth but none of those players are elite, yet I would say they have as solid a chance of any of the 4 remaining teams at winning the cup. Chicago has Toews, but when they won their last cup he scored 3 goals in 23 games and their 4 centres combined to score just 12 goals in the 23 games. They had elite play from their wingers, with their top 4 wingers scoring 35 goals to carry that offense. The year Boston won the cup, Krejci scored 13 goals in the season and Bergeron had 57 points. But then they stepped their games up in the playoffs, scoring a combined 43 points in 48 games. That's comparable to what Ottawa has as they don't have that elite centre but they have good depth and if someone in that group could step up during a playoff run, I don't see why they couldn't win with this group of centres. As others have mentioned, their defense is of greater concern right now.
 

DrunkUncleDenis

Condra Fan
Mar 27, 2012
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Pierre McGuire is mostly eye-rolling but one thing he has right is the "Seven Player Profile":

The 7 player profile as he listed:

1. #1 all star center (Missing)

2. #2 all star center (Missing)

3. Top power forward (Missing)

4. Specialist/Utility Player/Agitator/Shutdown center (Lazar/Smith)

5. All star offensive d-man (Karlsson)

6. Top shutdown d-man (Methot)

7. All star goalie (Anderson)

So if Murray is using this profile, I can see why he thinks they need an upgrade at forward. Turris isn't an all-star level centre but he is quite a respectable #1A centre. Ryan isn't a power forward but Stone might be.

The team is close, but it has too much dead cap space in Phillips, Neil, Legwand, Greening, etc. This is Murray's biggest issue, he overpays and falls in love with small sample sizes (as brilliantly denoted by another poster). Greening one good year and he vastly overpays. Hammond one good third of season and three year deal. Cowen idealized potential and big deal. Murray really likes plugs/depth guys that are replacement level. Those are basically dispensable and easily acquirable off the free agent heap or internally.

Until Murray steps aside for a more cap-astute general manager that can cut the cord with average players, the team will be a bubble team forever.

You have a good point with the doling out of contracts. It's the term that is the worst part, because we're locked in for so long to guys who have majorly regressed. The jury is out on the Hammond deal, but he doesn't learn from his mistakes (3 years? Really?). Same with Boro. I think BM gets a free pass on the Legwand signing, but the others really suck. Frustrating how much dead money we have to cope with. Something like 13m.

okayguy.jpg
 

aragorn

Do The Right Thing
Aug 8, 2004
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Yes, if Hoffman stays on the team and we add another winger (which should be a LW given Ryan and Stone on the right) Mac is the one to move out of the top 6.

Conversely, if we replace Hoffman with a better RW, then Mac would stay in the top 6.

You're right though, if we're moving Mac to the third line, we're in great shape offensively.

Hoffman plays LW & potentially I believe the organization wants to add Puempel to the team if he can prove he deserves it & can keep the job. Robinson is another possibility to graduate this yr.

Our first priority needs to be to upgrade the D. We have some youth at centre that is promising, but Borowiecki-Gryba needs to go.

You do realize that the organization signed Boro to a 3 yr deal & think very highly of him, I doubt he is going anywhere. Unless Ottawa acquires a RD that can do what Gryba does I doubt he is replaced too. Wideman is an offensive RD but I'm not sure he is needed as much as a shutdown RD on this team. If they graduate him than Gryba will likely be traded but I don't see it or next yr anyway.
 

DrunkUncleDenis

Condra Fan
Mar 27, 2012
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Hoffman plays LW & potentially I believe the organization wants to add Puempel to the team if he can prove he deserves it & can keep the job. Robinson is another possibility to graduate this yr.



You do realize that the organization signed Boro to a 3 yr deal & think very highly of him, I doubt he is going anywhere. Unless Ottawa acquires a RD that can do what Gryba does I doubt he is replaced too. Wideman is an offensive RD but I'm not sure he is needed as much as a shutdown RD on this team. If they graduate him than Gryba will likely be traded but I don't see it or next yr anyway.

My bad on that. I meant LW (which should be obvious from the rest of my post).
 

Holdurbreathe

Registered User
Jun 22, 2006
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Not worried at all. It would be nice to have an elite talent up front somewhere though.

Not having a legit top 4 LD is my concern going forward.

Senators aren't going to be a cup contender until they significantly upgrade the 3rd and 4th lines.

Every team that has won the cup in recent history has had a significant contribution from the bottom six.

The current bottom six of the Sens just isn't good enough by any means.

The D also needs upgrading, but it is very young and still has time to grow.
 

Dr.Sens(e)

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Feb 27, 2002
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There are generally two models to win the Cup, with one being a lot more common.

The most common place model is two elite forwards - typically centers - who typically do not play together. This model has been repeated over and over for decades going back to Gretzky-Messier, to Lemieux-Francis, to Yzerman-Federov, to Sakic-Forsberg to Modano-Nieuwendyk, and over the last decade or so with Crosby-Malkin, Datsyuk-Zetterberg, Lecavalier-Richards, Staal-Weight, and most recently with Toews-Kane (I know Kane isn't a center, but he plays like one after the draw is taken). If you have one elite center on your team, and an average 2nd line center, you are pretty much doomed (unless you can do the 2nd model).

Two star players to build around. Typically there is an allstar d-man of elite status and a great goalie, but not always. Fair to say we are not tracking on this, even if Zibby improves quite a bit. Just not realistic to envision Turris and Zib at that top echelon level. Really, this is most commonly done thanks for some top overall picks and some lottery luck.

The other way, which is less common, has been done by New Jersey and Anaheim back in the day, and more recently with Boston and Los Angeles, which at least bodes well for us in that it has become a bit more common. This is the model we'll have to follow and it's generally a bit more fluid.

This model is involves tremendous depth at center with some elite centers, albeit not quite at the level of the perennial allstar , but involves more depth. Jersey did it back in the day with Gomez-Nieuwendyk-Holik-Madden. The Ducks beat us with MacDonald-Getzlaf-Pahlsson-Rob Niedermeyer(MacDonald playing with a hall-of-famer Selanne of course). Boston was loaded with Bergeron-Krejci-Seguin-Kelly (and hasn't won it since moving Seguin). And LA has been loaded with Kopitar-Carter-Richards-Stoll.

That is some serious depth down the middle, with truly elite level checking centers on the 4th line basically.

The thing is with this other model, is there is typically more to it required. These teams often had other tremendous things going for them at the same time. The Devils had two Norris calibre defenders in Stevens and Niedermeyer, along with one the best goalies of all time in Brodeur. The Ducks also had two Norris calibre defenders in Pronger and Niedermeyer, along with a Vezina calibre Giguerre. The Bruins had Norris winner Chara and a stacked blueline in front of a Vezina winning Thomas. And LA had a Norris winning Doughty with another stacked blueline, along with a Vezina calibre Quick. And all the teams had good wingers too, for the most part.

This is the model we're tracking for, and I think we have several of the pieces to perhaps have the center depth, along with the required forwards. We're missing a real workhorse d-man for the 2nd pairing for sure, and all of this assumes some of our young players continue to progress and turn into the players we'll hope they will (in particular Lazar, Pageau and likely one of Prince or Puempel).

I do think this is the reason Murray thinks we need one more elite forward (could be a LW) or top 4 defender though. Or both. They look at this model to an extent and find us falling short in the next 2-3 years, unless we have another piece or two. But I do think we're getting closer.
 

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