Do the Wings need to get tougher?

[Winger98]

Well, kind of.

If you're talking about hits that directly influence the flow of play, then yes, absolutely. Separating someone from the puck is something our defenders seem to struggle with, that's for sure.

If you're talking about the grinder type hits where they finish a check on a guy who passed the puck already and the play is already gone... ehhhhhh. Don't really see the use for those types of plays unless you subscribe to the "wear them down" train of thought.

Over a seven game playoff series those "wear them down" plays do just that. It's less so during the regular season where just having bigger bodies helps mitigate some wear and team, imo. If you have guys who are willing and able to deliver a hit and separate players from pucks and change the flow of play, I think you also have guys who will typically go in and finish their checks and wear on teams in general. Maybe not 100% of them, but the lion's share.

You can make this team as tough as you want, it ain't gunna make us into a cup contender. What this team needs first and foremost is a serious infusion of talent.

When we're in a position to start making deep playoff runs again, then is the time to start asking "is this team tough enough?"

You're still saying the team needs to be tougher. I think the talent part is going to have to come largely through the draft. We've shown very little to no ability at getting big talent guys through free agency or trades. Which means we're waiting on it. Every summer, though, there are some high physical play guys who might get overpaid a bit (Matt Martin, for example, was probably a little overpaid unless he assumes a larger role in Toronto) but they are at least available.

Right now we don't have enough talent or enough toughness, so getting markedly better in at least one of those areas would be an improvement.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

If posters are gonna lie and use thr old phrase "knuckle draggers" then no we dont.

We do need to get bigger and stronger along with more skilled.

As a team we need to be harder to play against and more willing to take and give a hit to make a play, we arent and havent been for years

As a team we need to be willing to stick up for one another, pack mentality, not be scared, if your scared than quit

Pretty much this.

One of the biggest places the Wings could get tougher is their fourth line. For several seasons it's been a collection of spare parts. I'd love for it to be a crash-bang line that can cycle the puck deep in the corners even if they don't lead to goals. Make opposing defensemen go get the puck and plaster them against the boards. Not goons, but guys who will fight when needed.

Signing an aging rat in Steve Ott doesn't really address the problem. It's another Holland patch to a larger issue.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Toughness to me is irrelevant if the team doesn't have the skill.

We don't have the skill to compete. That is why we fail.

 

[avssuc]

Yes. I've played hockey. You know what gives you a bigger lift than a guy dropping the gloves? A talented player having the puck on his stick and fighting through a check. A guy scoring a goal.

Talent can't do that when he's out 4-6 with a banged up knee and concussion.

The reality is, a thug/s is easier and cheaper to find than the next Larkin. What seems to be muddled is the value of said thug/s. Will their infusion cause more runs at the talent, will it stay the same and give the talent more confidence, or will it police it with added mental boost?

Have you ever seen Yzerman talk about Probert? Someone speaking against adding a thug to the lineup might reference the time that McGuire jumped Yzerman, but they're failing to acknowledge what Probert did to send a message to him and the rest of the league.

Like Abby did with Boyle, we now have players all over the league that will blindside and cheap-shot, then they turn yellow when it comes time to drop the gloves. Since the league is too cowardly to get hostile with suspensions for the knee, stick, and head shot BS, this will continue to happen.

 

[Yzerman1919*]

Anyone that posts "no" on here is kidding themselves.

The days of wishing we'd have Stu Grimson, aka modern Colton Orr are gone. And so be it, it is the way the game is now.

Yes they need to get tougher. A guy like Lucic, Simmonds, etc. is direly needed. I hope Givanni Smith gets a chance a lot sooner than when you guys seem to think he does.

The other issue is the MENTALITY they have. I just don't remember any games really where the Wings got really mad about something this past season outside of Tampa. Hockey is a game of emotion. I see a lot of losses with their heads down. A lot of cheap hits that go unpunished. They are always so worried about being "proper" or something. I will always remember the Sharks spraying the goalie. Thornton going after Datsyuk and Lidstrom. How about Palat's running headshot last year on Glendening? Jurco's ribs getting broken by the same guy who hurt Pavel and Franzen? None of these guys think twice. They do it on purpose knowing they get away with it.

Ericsson is a tool. One of the biggest guys out there if not the biggest and he plays soft as can be. His big contract he thinks he's really important now. Go stick up for your teammates and make a hard body check you wuss. Brendan Smith gets a lot of heat around here but that guy is one of the only people who will hit, scrum in front, stick up for himself, and a teammate.

If you've ever played competitive hockey, you know when you are playing a team that has some bruisers. You know that you are looking an extra time or 2 before you receive that pass. You think twice about throwing that borderline late hit. You might think twice about roughing up their best player in front (aka Larkin to us). That extra chirp? You keep your mouth shut. It's a MUCH different atmosphere playing a soft fluffy team. Of course skill is needed, but playing heavy, not being afraid, and letting emotions take over is big. The Wings pretty much do none of that.

As someone else mentioned. The fourth line is spare parts. Hey let's rotate 3-5 guys on the fourth line who are there because I gave them a contract for no reason or they PK. ZERO identity.

 

[Yzerman1919*]

Talent can't do that when he's out 4-6 with a banged up knee and concussion.

The reality is, a thug/s is easier and cheaper to find than the next Larkin. What seems to be muddled is the value of said thug/s. Will their infusion cause more runs at the talent, will it stay the same and give the talent more confidence, or will it police it with added mental boost?

Have you ever seen Yzerman talk about Probert? Someone speaking against adding a song to the lineup white reference the time that McGuire jumped Yzerman, but they're failing to acknowledge what Probert did to send a message to him and the rest of the league.

Like Abby did with Boyle, we now have players all over the league that will blindside and cheap-shot, then they turn yellow when it comes time to drop the gloves. Since the league is too cowardly to get hostile with suspensions for the knee, stick, and head shot BS, this will continue to happen.

Didn't he speak at Probert's funeral? I know the Wings were very vocal about Probert. With the McGuire incident, Probert doesn't care if he gets suspended. He wants retribution. No one does that to our captain and I'll sit 5 games if I have to. I love it.

 

[avssuc]

If posters are gonna lie and use thr old phrase "knuckle draggers" then no we dont.

We do need to get bigger and stronger along with more skilled.

As a team we need to be harder to play against and more willing to take and give a hit to make a play, we arent and havent been for years

As a team we need to be willing to stick up for one another, pack mentality, not be scared, if your scared than quit

People that use the word "we" when talking about a major sports team might be questioned too.

Just like all the patriots that have every excuse for not joining the military, while sporting their terrorist hunting license or 'Power of Pride' bumpersticker BS, those that speak like that typically have little experience in what they falsely believe they belong to, probably because they couldn't make it to begin with. I'm not saying thats the case here, but I'd bet it is more than not.

The pack mentality only works when you're capable. The Wings are the least capable in the league. Abdelkader is regarded by most around the league as a Cooke without all of the calories, and he's about the only one on the roster that gets dirty. A 'one man wolfpack' for you? All you have to do is watch the videos in the OP to see the inefficiency here.

 

[avssuc]

Didn't he speak at Probert's funeral? I know the Wings were very vocal about Probert. With the McGuire incident, Probert doesn't care if he gets suspended. He wants retribution. No one does that to our captain and I'll sit 5 games if I have to. I love it.

Yep, Yzerman did, and that was awesome.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Toughness to me is irrelevant if the team doesn't have the skill.

We don't have the skill to compete. That is why we fail.

This is spot on, I will take skill over toughness any day of the year. This team needs skill not toughness.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

People that use the word "we" when talking about a major sports team might be questioned too.

Just like all the patriots that have every excuse for not joining the military, while sporting their terrorist hunting license or 'Power of Pride' bumpersticker BS, those that speak like that typically have little experience in what they falsely believe they belong to, probably because they couldn't make it to begin with. I'm not saying thats the case here, but I'd bet it is more than not.

The pack mentality only works when you're capable. The Wings are the least capable in the league. Abdelkader is regarded by most around the league as a Cooke without all of the calories, and he's about the only one on the roster that gets dirty. A 'one man wolfpack' for you? All you have to do is watch the videos in the OP to see the inefficiency here.

lol, well their you go..

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Toughness to me is irrelevant if the team doesn't have the skill.

We don't have the skill to compete. That is why we fail.

problem is they're not mutually exclusive

you dont have all of one and none fo the other

you can not win in the NHL with all toughness and no skill just like you wont win with all skill and no toughness

the league(the game) blends both to one degree or another depending on a # of factors

the DRW do not need a fighting goon but we need a simmonds more then we need a nyquist

 

[theYman]

Tougher as in more sandpaper? Yes. We need guys like Dallas Drake and Maltby and McCarty once were. Out hitting has gone down in recent years. But we need more size than anything.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

Anyone that posts "no" on here is kidding themselves.

The days of wishing we'd have Stu Grimson, aka modern Colton Orr are gone. And so be it, it is the way the game is now.

Yes they need to get tougher. A guy like Lucic, Simmonds, etc. is direly needed. I hope Givanni Smith gets a chance a lot sooner than when you guys seem to think he does.

The other issue is the MENTALITY they have. I just don't remember any games really where the Wings got really mad about something this past season outside of Tampa. Hockey is a game of emotion. I see a lot of losses with their heads down. A lot of cheap hits that go unpunished. They are always so worried about being "proper" or something. I will always remember the Sharks spraying the goalie. Thornton going after Datsyuk and Lidstrom. How about Palat's running headshot last year on Glendening? Jurco's ribs getting broken by the same guy who hurt Pavel and Franzen? None of these guys think twice. They do it on purpose knowing they get away with it.

Ericsson is a tool. One of the biggest guys out there if not the biggest and he plays soft as can be. His big contract he thinks he's really important now. Go stick up for your teammates and make a hard body check you wuss. Brendan Smith gets a lot of heat around here but that guy is one of the only people who will hit, scrum in front, stick up for himself, and a teammate.

If you've ever played competitive hockey, you know when you are playing a team that has some bruisers. You know that you are looking an extra time or 2 before you receive that pass. You think twice about throwing that borderline late hit. You might think twice about roughing up their best player in front (aka Larkin to us). That extra chirp? You keep your mouth shut. It's a MUCH different atmosphere playing a soft fluffy team. Of course skill is needed, but playing heavy, not being afraid, and letting emotions take over is big. The Wings pretty much do none of that.

As someone else mentioned. The fourth line is spare parts. Hey let's rotate 3-5 guys on the fourth line who are there because I gave them a contract for no reason or they PK. ZERO identity.

In large part that comes down to coaching. Babcock especially kept the team on a ruthlessly short leash. I don't think it was a lack of toughness thing, it was a discipline thing that we wouldn't be goaded into retaliatory penalties. Players (and fans) of other teams would talk about how disciplined we were and how few penalties we took. Remember when Smith used to deliver big hits, then stopped after he got suspended? Same with Kronwall. It could just be my imagination, but I feel like we got involved in a lot more scrums last season under Blashill.

I often quote this, but when we first came over to the East, there was a thread on the main boards where fans of EC teams were smack talking how soft Detroit were. I was pleasantly surprised to see fans of Anaheim, San Jose and Chicago spring to our defence and basically say "wait till you meet them in the playoffs. Just because they don't fight, don't think they're soft." There was a real respect there from our closest rivals.

But yeah, Ericsson playing to his size would be a nice start. We've lost Quincey too who was probably our grittiest D. Then again we've added Ott and the Nephtuzzi is knocking on the door with Smith coming up from behind.

High end talent is still this teams biggest need - and that doesn't mean another Nyquist, it means another Datsyuk or Zetterberg level player. Nyquist is a good player - a legitimate top-6 winger, but he's only ever a support player on a contender, a Kozlov or Filpulla. He'll win you a game or two in the playoffs, but he'll never be the guy driving the bus. We need 2 or 3 of those kind of players first.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

problem is they're not mutually exclusive

you dont have all of one and none fo the other

you can not win in the NHL with all toughness and no skill just like you wont win with all skill and no toughness

the league(the game) blends both to one degree or another depending on a # of factors

the DRW do not need a fighting goon but we need a simmonds more then we need a nyquist

This, I can agree with.

The "toughness" they need has to come in concert with talent from a guy like Wayne Simmonds or what we hope a guy like Svech or G. Smith can be. They need a top end player like Datsyuk or Zetterberg or Lidstrom who simply weren't head-huntable. They were so skilled they just avoided the crushing blow and were built solidly enough to drop the bomb on a guy if he tried picking them off (Datsyuk on Perry a couple times) or strong enough to skate around with a guy draped on their back like Zetterberg was. Hell, Yzerman in his later years when Pronger came a prowling and Yzerman hip checked him into next week and took him out of the series.

The implication of a "Do the Red Wings need to get tougher question" is always they need big dudes to finish checks. They need Kronwall on the back end looking to knock a dude's **** into his watchpocket. I don't think that's what they need at all. It would be fun to see, but what they need is actual toughness. The ability of guys to absorb punishment and not have it affect their game. Something like what Yzerman had for the entire second half of his career. Yzerman couldn't hardly walk and he would routinely be the best player on the ice.

They need a better tandem of skill and heart. Their heart and soul guys (Abby, Glendening, etc.) lack the talent of their more skilled guys and their skilled guys are either physically declined to where they can't push it as hard as they want (Z, Kronner), play softer than they should for various reasons (Ericsson, Mantha), are rock ****ing stupid (Brendan Smith) or are just physically smaller and/or slower than other guys (Tatar, Pulks).

Hockey has far less to do with inflicting punishment and more to do with your ability to withstand it.

 

[Yzerman1919*]

In large part that comes down to coaching. Babcock especially kept the team on a ruthlessly short leash. I don't think it was a lack of toughness thing, it was a discipline thing that we wouldn't be goaded into retaliatory penalties. Players (and fans) of other teams would talk about how disciplined we were and how few penalties we took. Remember when Smith used to deliver big hits, then stopped after he got suspended? Same with Kronwall. It could just be my imagination, but I feel like we got involved in a lot more scrums last season under Blashill.

I often quote this, but when we first came over to the East, there was a thread on the main boards where fans of EC teams were smack talking how soft Detroit were. I was pleasantly surprised to see fans of Anaheim, San Jose and Chicago spring to our defence and basically say "wait till you meet them in the playoffs. Just because they don't fight, don't think they're soft." There was a real respect there from our closest rivals.

But yeah, Ericsson playing to his size would be a nice start. We've lost Quincey too who was probably our grittiest D. Then again we've added Ott and the Nephtuzzi is knocking on the door with Smith coming up from behind.

High end talent is still this teams biggest need - and that doesn't mean another Nyquist, it means another Datsyuk or Zetterberg level player. Nyquist is a good player - a legitimate top-6 winger, but he's only ever a support player on a contender, a Kozlov or Filpulla. He'll win you a game or two in the playoffs, but he'll never be the guy driving the bus. We need 2 or 3 of those kind of players first.

But we often get beat on in those scrums, whether they engage or not. The opponent then knows it's okay to continue is the issue. It's a mentality. And yes we are generally a very disciplined team. But sometimes you need to put a guy on his can, it is hockey.

Agree with the bold. I also believe though that started because he realized we DID NOT have a tough group to start. So why act like that? Babcock had Kronwall hitting in his prime, Downey, May, McCarty, Ericsson when he fought more. He had plenty of gritty teams. Once the roster moved away from that, the intensity, physicality, fighting went down, and "discipline" and being "proper" went up. Combo of the two.

Chicago in 2010 had a really good mix. Skill obviously. They also had Bolland, Big Buff, Eager, Brouwer, Bickell, Ladd, Burish. That is one feisty bunch. Buff, Eager, Bickell, Burish would probably beat up any current Wing. The 2013 Hawks had Bolland, Shaw, Bollig, Carcillo. LA had Nolan, Clifford, Greene is underrated nasty, Dustin Brown.

We lack a group that can punish people, isn't afraid to drop them, isn't afraid of being in the corner. You NEED those guys. You need a fire. You need a team to come together. It changes the atmosphere. It really does. Playing competitive hockey as I said before, there is absolutely a mental aspect to it. Coming into a game knowing you can push a team around or punish them or have them looking an extra 3 times before they catch a pass is a pretty big deal. Your best player might be your best player but if he is off of his game and too busy trying to not get lit up, he isn't going to be your best player.

Look at friggen Kindl. The guy was HUGE, he had a good frame, great shot from the point, he could skate. But what was his downfall? He was scared of getting wrecked. And it turned him into a god awful player because of it. Every single time he touched the ice you know the opponent said go run at #4 and he'll cough it up. We need to be the ones doing that.

 

[avssuc]

Something like what Yzerman had for the entire second half of his career. Yzerman couldn't hardly walk and he would routinely be the best player on the ice.

Wonderfully put.

I'd like to see a guy that scares most in the league on the 4th line (Kocur), a guy who will scrap with anyone on the 2nd or third (Dmac), a dynamic power forward that would do the same on the 1st (Shanny), and a guy or two on D that can throw down when needed (Rouse/Fischer). All but the Shanny type player aren't too difficult to find.

High end talent is still this teams biggest need - and that doesn't mean another Nyquist, it means another Datsyuk or Zetterberg level player. Nyquist is a good player - a legitimate top-6 winger, but he's only ever a support player on a contender, a Kozlov or Filpulla. He'll win you a game or two in the playoffs, but he'll never be the guy driving the bus. We need 2 or 3 of those kind of players first.

I agree with that, but I think a bruiser or two would be a worthy investment in terms of mutually assured retribution, and the team chemistry... emotional type stuff.


Just look at Yzerman and the rest of the Wings bench. While this is outside of what I think the Wings need, it's still fun to watch.

Babcock had Kronwall hitting in his prime, Downey, May, McCarty, Ericsson when he fought more. He had plenty of gritty teams. Once the roster moved away from that, the intensity, physicality, fighting went down, and "discipline" and being "proper" went up. Combo of the two.

Chicago in 2010 had a really good mix. Skill obviously. They also had Bolland, Big Buff, Eager, Brouwer, Bickell, Ladd, Burish. That is one feisty bunch. Buff, Eager, Bickell, Burish would probably beat up any current Wing. The 2013 Hawks had Bolland, Shaw, Bollig, Carcillo. LA had Nolan, Clifford, Greene is underrated nasty, Dustin Brown.

We lack a group that can punish people, isn't afraid to drop them, isn't afraid of being in the corner. You NEED those guys. You need a fire. You need a team to come together. It changes the atmosphere. It really does. Playing competitive hockey as I said before, there is absolutely a mental aspect to it. Coming into a game knowing you can push a team around or punish them or have them looking an extra 3 times before they catch a pass is a pretty big deal. Your best player might be your best player but if he is off of his game and too busy trying to not get lit up, he isn't going to be your best player.

Look at friggen Kindl. The guy was HUGE, he had a good frame, great shot from the point, he could skate. But what was his downfall? He was scared of getting wrecked. And it turned him into a god awful player because of it. Every single time he touched the ice you know the opponent said go run at #4 and he'll cough it up. We need to be the ones doing that.

Amen. We probably shouldn't bring up the Boston team that won a cup and came close to adding another. That touches on several areas that some on this forum get pretty bent over.

In terms of Abdelkader and what role he really plays, is he anything more than Marchand with a lot less defense, and less skill? When USA play Canada the other night, the color team compared his ability to run the goalie and stir the pot to that of Brad Marchand. They went on to say that he probably runs more tenders than anyone else in the NHL, something I'm not sure I can agree with. We all know Barry Melrose has disdain for the Wings because of their slight on him decades back.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

The Wings need to get more skilled. Team USA told us all we need to know about how big, tough teams do against more skilled opposition.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

problem is they're not mutually exclusive

you dont have all of one and none fo the other

you can not win in the NHL with all toughness and no skill just like you wont win with all skill and no toughness

the league(the game) blends both to one degree or another depending on a # of factors

the DRW do not need a fighting goon but we need a simmonds more then we need a nyquist

But the focus of this thread is toughness, and if you don't have the skill to supplement it how valuable is the team?

A skilled team without a lot of toughness can have moderate to high success. A tough team without a lot of skill absolutely cannot.

 

[Winger98]

But the focus of this thread is toughness, and if you don't have the skill to supplement it how valuable is the team?

A skilled team without a lot of toughness can have moderate to high success. A tough team without a lot of skill absolutely cannot.

are you really enjoying the moderate success of the past few years and the path it's put this organization on for the near future?

In terms of Abdelkader and what role he really plays, is he anything more than Marchand with a lot less defense, and less skill? When USA play Canada the other night, the color team compared his ability to run the goalie and stir the pot to that of Brad Marchand. They went on to say that he probably runs more tenders than anyone else in the NHL, something I'm not sure I can agree with. We all know Barry Melrose has disdain for the Wings because of their slight on him decades back.

If Gator actually ran goalies that much it would be a mark in his favor. He takes his share of late runs at guys, but he's not like Marchment of old or Ruutu or Cooke. I don't see him as a Marchand type, though.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

are you really enjoying the moderate success of the past few years and the path it's put this organization on for the near future?

Are you saying the Red Wings of the last few years have been skilled enough to compete with other teams?

Are you saying toughness was the answer for those teams? Or that it would have made those playoff failures more palatable?

 

[Winger98]

Are you saying the Red Wings of the last few years have been skilled enough to compete with other teams?

Are you saying toughness was the answer for those teams? Or that it would have made those playoff failures more palatable?

Compete or contend for a cup? We've made the playoffs each year, racking up winning seasons with 90+ points. Those are clearly teams that can compete with other teams.

And, yeah, having a bit more of a backbone might have helped against TB the past couple of years. Putting some mileage on their blueline or putting Johnson on his back more often might have helped gain us some room and slow them down.

 

[Reddwit]

No, the Wings do not need to get tougher. The Wings need better defenseman and bigger, stronger forwards. The Wings have set themselves up nicely to have the toughness and size that they've needed for the past 7-10 years now and in the near future, right when they don't have enough skill or brains to make effective use of it.

 

[Reddwit]

problem is they're not mutually exclusive

you dont have all of one and none fo the other

you can not win in the NHL with all toughness and no skill just like you wont win with all skill and no toughness

the league(the game) blends both to one degree or another depending on a # of factors

the DRW do not need a fighting goon but we need a simmonds more then we need a nyquist

*than

This comparison is a cop out. There are about a handful of Simmondses in the league. There are tons of Nyquists in the NHL. Everyone needs a Simmonds more than they need a Nyquist because Simmonds is Nyquist...along with a boatload of other beneficial characteristics. And very few teams have even one player like this, let alone multiple.

The Wings really don't need a wrecking ball like Simmonds. Would we all love to have him? Hell yeah. But we'd make huge strides if we:

(1) Had forwards who were simply bigger and stronger, where battling didn't mean losing and getting hurt along the boards.
(2) Had better, smarter skaters, who knew how to find pockets and create space for themselves.
(3) Had defenseman who could actually make a pass to spring forwards, or thread the needle, so that every zone entry didn't require having to battle an opposing body.

The league is less and less and less about contact these days. The faster you move the puck, your feet and your brain, the better off you are.

Toughness is way down the least of things to address and getting tougher without getting more skilled in the process will do little to nothing for us.

 

[Yzerman1919*]

Wonderfully put.

I'd like to see a guy that scares most in the league on the 4th line (Kocur), a guy who will scrap with anyone on the 2nd or third (Dmac), a dynamic power forward that would do the same on the 1st (Shanny), and a guy or two on D that can throw down when needed (Rouse/Fischer). All but the Shanny type player aren't too difficult to find.



I agree with that, but I think a bruiser or two would be a worthy investment in terms of mutually assured retribution, and the team chemistry... emotional type stuff.


Just look at Yzerman and the rest of the Wings bench. While this is outside of what I think the Wings need, it's still fun to watch.






Amen. We probably shouldn't bring up the Boston team that won a cup and came close to adding another. That touches on several areas that some on this forum get pretty bent over.

In terms of Abdelkader and what role he really plays, is he anything more than Marchand with a lot less defense, and less skill? When USA play Canada the other night, the color team compared his ability to run the goalie and stir the pot to that of Brad Marchand. They went on to say that he probably runs more tenders than anyone else in the NHL, something I'm not sure I can agree with. We all know Barry Melrose has disdain for the Wings because of their slight on him decades back.

Exactly. There's a time and a place it will ALWAYS have an impact. Nobody on Detroit has a time or a place though.

Abdelkader is nowhere close to Marchand. Abdelkader fights A LOT more than Marchand. He isn't nearly as dirty, not even close. I also think Marchand is vastly overrated, sorry anyone that thinks otherwise. That turd is a product of Patrice Bergeron and a power play with Bergeron, Krejci, and Chara shooting from the point. He's overrated, and a piece of crap on top of it.

No, the Wings do not need to get tougher. The Wings need better defenseman and bigger, stronger forwards. The Wings have set themselves up nicely to have the toughness and size that they've needed for the past 7-10 years now and in the near future, right when they don't have enough skill or brains to make effective use of it.

This is an oxymoron. Strength and toughness are pretty much hand in hand. Nathan Gerbe never gives up. Is he strong? For a 5'6" player, sure. He's stronger than every single 5'6" guy I've ever encountered. Is he tough? Absolutely not. Is Anthony Mantha strong? I think so. He is a BIG boy, he can shield the puck nicely. Do I think he is tough though? Nope not at all. Little Bert honestly looks like a 17 year old skateboarded to me, with an overly good looking punk rock girlfriend. You all know the guy from high school I'm talking about! Strong? Eh maybe a little bit under there, but not really. Nope actually. Tough according to everyone on here and his fights he has had? Absolutely.

They go hand in hand. Simmonds is strong, and tough. Lucic is strong and tough. Ladd is strong and tough (and older). Abby is strong, but he isn't that tough. Luke is tough, but he isn't strong.

Our roster is kind of filled with cream puffs. And if you want to say Abby, Smith, Ericsson, Ott aren't cream puffs then I won't argue with you. With today's game that is a decent amount of sand paper. Do they act like cream puffs 90% of the time though? Absolutely. So what good is Ericsson if he thinks he's a stud with that contract? What good is Abby is he thinks he's Z's partner in crime on the first line. What good is it if Ott plays 25 games? It's not. The Detroit Red Wings have a soft roster. And if someone wants to say it isn't soft. They sure play like it.

I don't want a guy who can KO everyone in the league at this point. Okay I do but that will never happen. But I want a team who isn't afraid to show emotion in a rivalry game they get blown out on home ice. I want a team that is enough of a hassle that Joe Thornton won't walk in here and say I'm going to mess with Pavel Datsyuk and Nicklas Lidstrom tonight. Sadly, that is what we've become.

 

[HIFE]

This is some real discussion it's a lot to think about.

To compare 10 or 20 years ago- times are changing fast. Thankfully qualities of NA hockey will never change (check a Saginaw/Flint game if you don't believe). That strength underlays our style of play, but the game is progressing. The overt violence is diminishing and I'm glad.

I don't expect Nyquist, Helm, Tatar, Zetterberg, to ever fist-fight but they are as tough as they come, hopefully at scoring goals which is the greatest way to punish an opponent. It is a game. I realized the 1st time I read at Detroit HF discussion around the dependence/focus on European drafts, that we needed balance from the CHL. Yet from the Russian 5 to the 1st European captain to win a SC, it's this euro quality that has brought Detroit success as arguably the #1 sports franchise the last 25 years. A lot to consider. The highlights of Forsberg, Bure, and Federov, are not of fighting, that's the toughness we want. It hurts to say but only after trading Probert allowed the progression to the Cup. Abdelkader bloodying Tampa at the series end was not pretty, an act of total frustration. The glory days had a balance of characters from around the planet it was the ultimate. I also like the Wings of today and believe they won't back down.

Some of the arguments here are not remembering recent history. Ericsson has had fistfulls of fights, the most on the team, he is seriously feared. Abdelkader too a great % of the NHL do not want to tangle with. He's earned respect. The guy can be scary he will scrap with Simmonds, Martin, Okposo, anyone skilled or goons at this point. Smith also thankfully...we actually have enough fighters. Hey, it's Canadian hockey we're talking about, will NEVER change !

The categories for me get confusing, offensive or defensive, etc. We need great players period. Give your all and be honest. We need guys who are 100%. As *****y as I am the players we get to watch I do support. Give a chance to play and we'll soon see what shakes out.

The organization needs an update of humility and honesty. DRW was so cutting edge until the later 2010's, we need innovation again. For 10 years the Wings have been copied and in ways surpassed. I think the team needs to listen and sit down with the fans and public. If it's a "city" team then sit with the public and listen to feedback with an open mind. It takes mental toughness also to win at the top levels.