Do the Oilers really need a big center?

[Mr Positive]

I just want someone who plays a strong 2 way game, plays hard every night, and gives a damn. Dubinsky is someone who comes to mind, but i've wanted him all year.

--> Don't need size we need responsible. That trumps 2 inches and 25lbs IMO.

Dubinsky is 6'2 216lbs. How is that not size?

 

[tiger_80]

I was looking at player vs. player match-ups on hockeyanalysis and it got me thinking. Are we grossly overestimating the need for a "big" center?


Here are RNH's even strength numbers while playing vs. the big centers of the Pacific.

(Name - Size - Minutes(rank among most played) - RNH's Goals For Per 20 Minutes - RNH's Goals Against Per 20 Minutes - RNH's Percentage of Goals scored)

Patrick Marleau - 6'2'' 220lbs - 31:33(3rd) - 3.17 GF20 - 0.00 GA/20 - 100 GF%
Martin Hanzal - 6'6'' 230lbs - 28:55(6th) - 3.458 GF/20 - 0.692 GA/20 - 83.3 GF%
Anze Kopitar - 6'3'' 225lbs - 24:59(12th) - 0.00 GF/20 - 0.800 GA/20 - 0.0 GF%
Ryan Kesler - 6'2'' 202lbs - 23:46(15th) - 1.683 GF/20 - 0.00 GA/20 - 100 GF%
Joe Thornton - 6'4'' 220lbs - 20:14(21st) - 1.977 GF/20 - 1.977 GA/20 - 50 GF%
Ryan Getzlaf - 6'4'' 221lbs - 17:21(38th) - 1.153 GF/20 - 1.153 GA/20 - 50 GF%


I think most of us can agree RNH struggled a little defensively this season. He went up and down. But, as you can see above, he either completely outplayed or broke even against the big dogs of the Pacific.

Kopitar was the only one to shut down RNH, but RNH held him to 0.179 GF/20 less than in his 1140ish minutes of ice time away from RNH.


The real issues came when the Oilers other centers were on the ice.

Gagner played Getzlaf/Perry more than any other forward in the league. He struggled vs. them.

Gordon played Thornton the most. Getzlaf was 6th most. He struggled mightily vs. them.

Smyth played Thornton 5th most and struggled to a degree.


Basically my point is...do the Oilers really need "big centers" or do they just need some defensively capable centers(and wingers to support them) for when teams are able to match around RNH?

I think RNH will be a fine 1C in a year or two. We do need a better 2C than Gagner.

 

[tiger_80]

So they need Legwand/Ott and Winnik/Kulemin/Moss/Bertuzzi(don't want, just a ****he)/Downie?

That would work nicely.

Legwand and Horton would be nice.

 

[tiger_80]

Bergeron is 6'2" .. Also Lucic, Iginla, Erikkson are all big and then they have Chara on ice for half the game.

you dont need a big C but you certainly need some muscle that is skilled. Sam Gagner is our heaviest top 6 forward.

This may not be true. Certainly Gagner's height seems to be inflated, would not surprise me if his weight is too.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

This may not be true. Certainly Gagner's height seems to be inflated, would not surprise me if his weight is too.

I don't see him as being heavier than Perron. That said I could see him as being heavier than RNH and Eberle. Proof positive that strength > weight if weight is weak.

 

[tiger_80]

I don't see him as being heavier than Perron. That said I could see him as being heavier than RNH and Eberle. Proof positive that strength > weight if weight is weak.

Yes, RNH in particular is stronger than he appears--I think I recall seeing Brenden Morrow (not the weakest and smallest player) bounce off him when attempting to make a hit. Hall definitely has to be heavier than Gagner, no?

 

[McArthur]

Florida took barkov last year, they have defensive prospects. Buffalo also has an abundance of defensive prospects. We could still be drafting Ekblad. Its tough to say that we don't need a heavier game after being bullied around and finished with a brutal record. even with looking at the last 30 games of the season. they would have finished outside the playoffs. I like the defensive side of Sam Bennetts game. Face off wins are still important. hockey DB has him listed as a LW. not sure if the penalty minutes means that he plays lazy or with an edge. still need a power forward game to balance out our top 6 attack. Hall, RNH, Eberle, Perron, Gagner, Yakupov, do not fit that description. If Ekblad is drafted before 3, i'd have to think Yakupov has more trade value than gagner, and gagner has more chemistry with the players we have already.

 

[DethOfDragnz]

Skill is more important then size. However some big strong players that can be physical against other teams and protect some of our stars would be a great improvement, no matter what position they play. If they don't have skill and just size then they are just a waste of money and a roster spot.

 

[Hockey Buddha]

In answer to the OP, I think that the San Jose-L.A. match up tonight was a perfect example of what it sometimes takes to win in the playoffs. If you can't answer and counter the heavy, aggressive play of a big, aggressive team playing on the edge--as San Jose was tonight--with some size in your line up, you can get run out of the rink quite quickly. Playoff contenders need to be able to stand against every style of game and come out on top. Size is a necessary component of that in ultra aggressive match ups. Without size, teams get worn down in long series and can't shift the momentum as easily with a big hit. Tonight, L.A. didn't match San Jose's aggression, and it showed on the score sheet. San Jose was more physically dominant than L.A. all night long, and it wasn't even close.

 

[tiger_80]

In answer to the OP, I think that the San Jose-L.A. match up tonight was a perfect example of what it sometimes takes to win in the playoffs. If you can't answer and counter the heavy, aggressive play of a big, aggressive team playing on the edge--as San Jose was tonight--with some size in your line up, you can get run out of the rink quite quickly. Playoff contenders need to be able to stand against every style of game and come out on top. Size is a necessary component of that in ultra aggressive match ups. Without size, teams get worn down in long series and can't shift the momentum as easily with a big hit. Tonight, L.A. didn't match San Jose's aggression, and it showed on the score sheet. San Jose was more physically dominant than L.A. all night long, and it wasn't even close.

LA is a very big, physical team probably on average bigger than San Jose. M.Richards is their only forward under 6 ft and he is an epitome of a gritty player. It's a strange example to give.

 

[Oscar Acosta]

You never need a big centre. It's like we're back in 1995 again.

You need a centre that can play big. Has Detroit ever needed a big centre? Has Datsyuk ever played small?

What was Team Canada, that picked apart a medal round of the best players on Earth with the ease of an NHL team vs. a Bantam B tournament?

Crosby - 5'11''
Toews - 6'2''
Bergeron - 6'2'' (but nobody actually believes that, 5'11'' tops)
Duchesne - 5'11''

Is there really a need for a 6'4'' center?

You just need players that play like they give a ****. If I was coach, this is the "welcome to training camp video - Bob Nystrom - 4 Stanley Cups - role player 6 feet tall, made no money, Hall of Fame. "



That's what this team is missing. Don't care if it's RNH in a fight vs. Alexander slap happy Semin, one of them has to give a ****.

 

[Hockey Buddha]

LA is a very big, physical team probably on average bigger than San Jose. M.Richards is their only forward under 6 ft and he is an epitome of a gritty player. It's a strange example to give.

I'm not suggesting that they aren't. I'm just saying that in order to match that aggression, a team built like the Oilers isn't even close to cutting it. They need to get bigger, more aggressive, etc. to match that intense, aggressive style, when they get to the playoffs. L.A. has the size and with some resolve could still bounce back from it, and take physical control and swing the momentum, whereas a smaller team would get eaten for lunch in that kind of environment. Size and aggression is a necessary ingredient for playoff success.

 

[Captain Catatomic]

Team needs:

1) Skill within the system
2) Experience
3) Leadership

 

[LaGu]

Rookies have a tendency to look smaller than they are. IMO EDM's top 6 seems to lack size because there are too many kids playing there. It is already improving though (RNH) and will be better next year.

 

[Klimando Kostani]

Rookies have a tendency to look smaller than they are. IMO EDM's top 6 seems to lack size because there are too many kids playing there. It is already improving though (RNH) and will be better next year.

We may not have had the benefit of tons of veteran leadership over the years but if we take a young center at the draft this year we may find that RNH, gags, and our young core having the opportunity to be the veterans and coaches for a talented young body they may grow from the experience and take on another role/feeling of responsibility that they never had before.

Also the kid we take this year will be in a different class/wave than our current young core and that may push a friendly competition/rivalry.

In regards to the point of this thread I say take Bennett for the compete level.

 

[voxel]

Basically my point is...do the Oilers really need "big centers" or do they just need some defensively capable centers(and wingers to support them) for when teams are able to match around RNH?

RNH played against Getzlaf for 17:21 mins and stayed afloat. Gagner played against Getzlaf for 32:27 and got butchered.

RNH results are nice, but he has almost 59% offensive zone starts. He's getting SOFT minutes. His line better produce.

We need Kopitar. He shut Getzlaf completely down and scored a few just to taunt him. Same with Hanzal.

We aren't winning until we have those types of two-way centers. And Lander is NOT it! lol...

 

[skorf]

What are Arcobello's numbers against those top C's (granted he played when are goalies were atrocious)... but how does he still compare against the big C's that he matched up against.

IF MacT doesn't get us a new #2 C (I think that's got about a 50% chance of happening), I personally would prefer Arcobello to Gagner as our 2nd line C from what I saw. I'm wondering if the numbers support him as well. He was -7 playing in the first half of the year, which wouldn't have been bad on our team

 

[Shanahanigans]

just posted this in the draft thread, I'll just repost it here.

athan Mackinnon is 6'0 180LB right now. Same size as Bennet. He's a bulldog. Mack is the better player, but both play the same high octane gritty style. And Mackinnon is flourishing in the NHL.

Let's look at the centres of the most recent cup winner- Chicago, LA, Boston, Chicao. Basically, other than L.A, none of those teams had a huge centre. Bergeron and Kreijci are average sized NHL players. Toews is 6'2 , 205. In comparison, Hall is 6'1, 200. Toews and Bergeron are so good because of their competitiveness, awareness, and attention to detail. Having a big centre would be nice, but if Bennet is the better prospect, you take him.

 

[CorpseFX]

assigning trendy properties of what "works" in the NHL is dumb. they just need players who are wise on the ice at proper NHL size depending on talent level.

first it's "a few #1 picks makes us equivalent to the Pens and Blackhawks, then "we need puck possession D" then it's "We need big wingers" then "We need a big center" blah blah ideal image / bogus magic recipes

 

[Mr Positive]

assigning trendy properties of what "works" in the NHL is dumb. they just need players who are wise on the ice at proper NHL size depending on talent level.

first it's "a few #1 picks makes us equivalent to the Pens and Blackhawks, then "we need puck possession D" then it's "We need big wingers" then "We need a big center" blah blah ideal image / bogus magic recipes

There is no hard rule about the exact player that is required, but there are general rules that are just obviously true. For instance, it's a good idea to aquire what you don't have and sell what you have a lot of.

In the Oiler's case, their top six is small on average and could use a big body there to balance it out. It isn't required that it be a center, but if it isn't a center then we better address the size issue elsewhere.

The bottom line is that we are getting killed on possession and it is obvious that we are getting pushed around by the big bodies of the division. Having at least one big guy means that our smaller players can at least have someone to dish the puck to who can hold his own and at least slow down the rate of turnovers.

 

[McDNicks17]

What are Arcobello's numbers against those top C's (granted he played when are goalies were atrocious)... but how does he still compare against the big C's that he matched up against.

IF MacT doesn't get us a new #2 C (I think that's got about a 50% chance of happening), I personally would prefer Arcobello to Gagner as our 2nd line C from what I saw. I'm wondering if the numbers support him as well. He was -7 playing in the first half of the year, which wouldn't have been bad on our team

Arco's numbers are pretty messed up from the goaltending.

He has a pretty good Corsi vs. Kesler(52.5%) and Hanzal(62.5%), but was scored on at a pretty big rate by both(~1.9 GA/20).

He was even vs. Kopitar, but had a 9% Corsi haha.

He didn't play Getzlaf or Thornton.

 

[thadd]

We don't NEED a big center. We just need a better one.

Gagner won't cut it on this team.

If we had big monstrous wingers he'd probably do fine.

If we're going to have a smallish 2nd line center he needs to be capable of caring people. Gagner didn't carry anyone in the OHL. Kane carried him. He can carry people if they can fill in the blanks that lead to success and that is the same in the NHL. Even Sidney Crosby needs some kind of player that can mesh with him. Gagner specifically needs some guys with size and grit around him.

 

[DarksideGhost]

just posted this in the draft thread, I'll just repost it here.

athan Mackinnon is 6'0 180LB right now. Same size as Bennet. He's a bulldog. Mack is the better player, but both play the same high octane gritty style. And Mackinnon is flourishing in the NHL.

Let's look at the centres of the most recent cup winner- Chicago, LA, Boston, Chicao. Basically, other than L.A, none of those teams had a huge centre. Bergeron and Kreijci are average sized NHL players. Toews is 6'2 , 205. In comparison, Hall is 6'1, 200. Toews and Bergeron are so good because of their competitiveness, awareness, and attention to detail. Having a big centre would be nice, but if Bennet is the better prospect, you take him.

Thank you! you made a awesome point! The match San Jose-L.A is all about size but I bet if these two team saw the hard working skill teams like Chicago, Avalanche, or even dare i say it Montreal. It would be a different story in the playoff. Skill and Hardwork > Size always. Bennet plays big! Bennet will drop the gloves and fight a bigger guy and win. As opposed to Draisaitl. Here's a question through out the season when other opponent are crashing and picking on us. Who would drop their glove and stand up for his teammates and himself? Bennet or Draisaitl? I would take Bennet because he's BPA and that guy that's ready to drop the glove if needed.

 

[Spawn]

I think the Oilers just need a really good center. Plus if he's big, but not necessary.

 

[GMofOilers]

just posted this in the draft thread, I'll just repost it here.

Nathan Mackinnon is 6'0 180LB right now. Same size as Bennet. He's a bulldog. Mack is the better player, but both play the same high octane gritty style. And Mackinnon is flourishing in the NHL.

Let's look at the centres of the most recent cup winner- Chicago, LA, Boston, Chicao. Basically, other than L.A, none of those teams had a huge centre. Bergeron and Kreijci are average sized NHL players. Toews is 6'2 , 205. In comparison, Hall is 6'1, 200. Toews and Bergeron are so good because of their competitiveness, awareness, and attention to detail. Having a big centre would be nice, but if Bennet is the better prospect, you take him.

The bolded part

Mackinnon played a way better game than Bennet. You dont remember him willing his team last year?

Also Mackinnon has been pegged as a super star through out his hockey days.