Do the Habs need an enforcer? Part 3

[Lshap]

Your missing the point, I dont need to provide proof. This isnt global warming where I DO have skin in the game. This is, in essence a form of entertainment. I can say malkovitch is a great actor and should be more popular than the kardashians. It dont change didly.

if you want to watch, watch. If fighting troubles you either stop watching or try to convince the players of the error of their ways. But what you cant do is say "we, the extreme minority are going to cry wah-wah-wah until you change the game to our liking against the overwhelming number of fans and players"

People who think that sport (as a form of entertainment) is equivalent to science are so horribly deluded i dont know if there is a path back.

As to the notion that the goal is to score more and that fighting does not contribute to wins, i will remind you the nhl is a professional spotsleague. Their job is to entertain and get you to part with disposable income. If their clients overwhelmingly support it, their partners as wellhead(the pa) that we should cater to te extreme minority whi likely approach the rag tag bunch of losers who protested the cunneyworth signing, because they go wah-wah-wah?

Pass

You're half right. Enjoying hockey isn't a science. However, measuring success in hockey is. It's disingenuous to play the "It's entertainment" card when this thread is about what the Habs need to succeed, and NOT what do you personally like to watch.

 

[Miller Time]

My wife - a family dr - will not allow our kids to play any contact sport. While this totally sucks (I'd love my boys to play hockey), she turns to facts, like this:
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/12/03/nhl-should-eliminate-bodychecking-concussion-expert/

So Dr Gonzo - based on these facts, should we gonzo body checking or not? Why?

feel bad for you, and your kids...

over protecting children is just as dangerous as not protecting them.


is soccer on the banned list as well? not a "contact" sport (in the sense that the rules don't allow it), yet there is contact and at the teenage level & higher the concussion #'s are staggering.

chearleading, a no-contact sport, has the highest injury rates(per participant) of all youth sports in the U.S.


people need to be careful... the logical conclusion of extreme risk avoidance is to give up leaving ones house all together.

 

[izzy75]

According to these math nerds, fighting helps... a little bit:
http://oilersnation.com/2012/1/11/does-the-momentum-boost-from-fighting-help-teams-win-games

But you know what... at the end of the day, I want to be entertained. Watching my players get bullied is not entertaining. Watching my goalie get run over, is not entertaining.

In my fantasy, some hulking nutjob will point his finger at Chara, and punch the living s*** out of him. After which, he'll skate by the Boston bench and gesture: "Anyone else?". And all of us - fighters and pacifists - will be thoroughly entertained.

 

[habsfanatics*]

From what I remember, there's little to no correlation between more body checks and wins.

Generally, when you have the puck you don't hit much. Puck possession teams tend to be the best teams in the NHL, meaning they hit less. I'm not ready to call it causation or anything though, but it's just logical. I'm sure there are a few outliers as well.

I'd have to delve further into this, and to be honest I only vaguely remember reading a few articles on the subject.

So why do 100% of teams check and every player but Jagr if it's of no use?

 

[Dr Gonzo]

So why do 100% of teams check and every player but Jagr if it's of no use?

I think you should read that again. I didn't say it has no use. Checking is supposed to be for separating the player from the puck, and gaining puck possession.

Checking for the sake of checking is basically only attrition, and I'm not sure that helps much, but the original intent behind body checking makes complete sense, you want to get the puck.

I just pointed out that generally you don't hit people when you have the puck. The best teams don't need to hit much, since they rank higher in terms of puck possession.

 

[Hoople]

The key in sports is winning. Goons don't help you win, it's a fact. They absolutely do not help your team's chances to win. The numbers support this.

Not only do goons not help you win, they also don't deter any of the ugly stuff, and the numbers also support this:

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/20...d-the-new-era-of-the-one-dimensional-fighter/

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2...fighting-deter-other-nasty-business-in-hockey

http://regressing.deadspin.com/the-enforcer-fallacy-hockeys-fighting-specialists-don-1442618145

http://www.defendingbigd.com/2013/1/16/3863578/goons-do-the-stars-need-one

There are more articles that explain (with facts) how tough guys don't prevent any goonery, but that's what google is for. I'll just leave those 4 examples up, and hopefully people read them.

By hiring a goon you'd actually be hurting your business, which in this case is to win hockey games.

Marc Bergevin knows this though, as evidenced by the fact that he stated the Habs don't need a goon. So thankfully his perception of the big picture isn't being skewed by a few scrubs that play on a bottom dweller team.

Just take it then.

Neil and Boro fight Pacioretty and Subban, our two best scorers on the team who are paid around $14 million. No response.

Just take it.

The next night, Galchenyuk and Gallagher get cross checks to the face. Prust attempts to fight and does not even look close to being in fighting shape. Sens win two in a row.

Just take it.

Toronto, Boston and the rest of the League saw the lack of response to attacking stars. Strategy is clear now against the Habs. Target talent. They will take it.

Just take it.

All of the cries for signing Subban for $$$$$ will fall on deaf ears if he has to fight his own fights.

Yeah, lets just take it. The Habs can once again be the ***** and the ***** of the League. Who needs pride?

 

[Kriss E]

So why do 100% of teams check and every player but Jagr if it's of no use?

Hitting is a tool used to separate a player from the puck. At the root of it at least, that's what hitting is about.
Hitting also happens during a play. A hit can lead to a turnover and so create a scoring chance. A fight happens when the play is blown dead.

 

[habsfanatics*]

I think you should read that again. I didn't say it has no use. Checking is supposed to be for separating the player from the puck, and gaining puck possession.

Checking for the sake of checking is basically only attrition, and I'm not sure that helps much, but the original intent behind body checking makes complete sense, you want to get the puck.

I just pointed out that generally you don't hit people when you have the puck. The best teams don't need to hit much, since they rank higher in terms of puck possession.

But if there is no correlation between checking and winning, what is the point? If checking to gain possession of the puck was really useful, it would show up in the data somewhere, wouldn't it?

 

[Hoople]

And add me to the list who doesn't care to watch two goons pull on each other's jersey for one minute. Back in the day we actually had good fights with guys who were swinging their fists. Now it's devolved into some bizarre tugging competition.

Hell, now goons have visors.. I mean come the f.. on. Watching Borocrapski fight with his visor on, chin tucked in and just swing away made me want to puke. What a warrior... Who wants to see this? NHL should take a clear stand on this. People should not be allowed to fight with visors on. This is ridiculous. But I guess that's another matter entirely.

Still, NHL should adopt a rule like the OHL. You can only fight so many times before you start getting suspended. It doesn't eliminate fighting but it eliminates goons which is what really needs to happen here. I don't have a problem with guys like Lucic, Prust, Thornton and all other guys who fight while still being able to play. But pure 100% goons who only fight have no place in the game anymore IMO.

Also, anyone who fight needs to be wearing removable visors, or take off their helmet. Fighting with a visor on is one of the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen.

To what I bolded......

**** yeah!!!!! I would rather see goons fighting Pacioretty and Subban than against the mythical Habs goon.

I want my multi-millionaire stars to prove their mettle. I also enjoyed how Subban showed his toughness and kept pounding Boro in his arms until Boro mercifully and regretfully beat him down to the ice.

Those fights were passion and more fun to watch.

I am looking forward to the DD and Plekanec fights. Hopefully Carey Price is not ignored.

I feel relieved posting that now. I finally understand the anti-goon crowd. It is refreshing to finally come out......

 

[Kriss E]

Just take it then.

Neil and Boro fight Pacioretty and Subban, our two best scorers on the team who are paid around $14 million. No response.

Just take it.

The next night, Galchenyuk and Gallagher get cross checks to the face. Prust attempts to fight and does not even look close to being in fighting shape. Sens win two in a row.

Just take it.

Toronto, Boston and the rest of the League saw the lack of response to attacking stars. Strategy is clear now against the Habs. Target talent. They will take it.

Just take it.

All of the cries for signing Subban for $$$$$ will fall on deaf ears if he has to fight his own fights.

Yeah, lets just take it. The Habs can once again be the ***** and the ***** of the League. Who needs pride?

Target talent???? Holy crap! What a new strategy! Teams never do that!!!
They usually target the 4th liners. Man, this is revolutionary!
For someone that keeps telling other people that they've never played the game because of their opinions (that is supported by facts btw), you certainly seem like a newbie hockey fan.
Teams target opposition's stars, duh. Their gameplan revolves around shutting those guys down. Nothing new here, unless of course you are new to hockey, which I'm starting to believe is your case.

 

[habsfanatics*]

Hitting is a tool used to separate a player from the puck. At the root of it at least, that's what hitting is about.
Hitting also happens during a play. A hit can lead to a turnover and so create a scoring chance. A fight happens when the play is blown dead.

And? if one is no more useful than the other, what does it matter?

 

[Dr Gonzo]

But if there is no correlation between checking and winning, what is the point? If checking to gain possession of the puck was really useful, it would show up in the data somewhere, wouldn't it?

You're confusing causation and coloration.

 

[Kriss E]

And? if one is no more useful than the other, what does it matter?

You think that a tool used to create a turnover is of the same value as something that happens when they play is dead?? Really?

 

[sandysan]

When presenting an opinion on something, it's always best to support it with evidence, like I did.

If not, it's just another opinion, which holds no water when discussing whether or not a team needs a goon.

In this case, as the GM of the Canadiens has properly noted, it's really not necessary.

Goons don't help you win games, nor do they prevent cheap stuff/injuries.

Personally I find wins entertaining. I get that you enjoy fights, and that's fair, but it's only fair to admit you're in it to see two people punch each other, because we've established that it doesn't help the team win.



That's absolutely not what I am saying, and you know it. It's very intellectually dishonest of you to try to establish that as my position.

I don't like goons, or enforcers, because they don't help the team win, and they don't prevent injuries. It's quite simple. Please stop trying to attack a position I never took, it's incredibly silly, and a cheap way to try to discuss things.

For things tat are objective, sure. But things that are subjective, your opinion means squat to me. You can tell me wine a is better than b, if my palate disagrees its not wrong no matter how much quantitative data you provide.

you cant prove that artist A is better than artist b, you cant prove that people of faith are deluded rubes, and you sure as hell cant prove the relative value of fights.

if you think that you can make a case, go find an owner of a team and make your case for the gm position. Show him your spreadsheet and wow em with your Rsquares. No body cares, if you want to change an existant cultural moore, doing so by fiat as an outsider has such a great historical success.

What you have is a third party minority with no skin in the game insisting that the consenting majority bend to their desires.

Again pass.

 

[Rapala]

Just take it then.

Neil and Boro fight Pacioretty and Subban, our two best scorers on the team who are paid around $14 million. No response.

Just take it.

The next night, Galchenyuk and Gallagher get cross checks to the face. Prust attempts to fight and does not even look close to being in fighting shape. Sens win two in a row.

Just take it.

Toronto, Boston and the rest of the League saw the lack of response to attacking stars. Strategy is clear now against the Habs. Target talent. They will take it.

Just take it.

All of the cries for signing Subban for $$$$$ will fall on deaf ears if he has to fight his own fights.

Yeah, lets just take it. The Habs can once again be the ***** and the ***** of the League. Who needs pride?

Given our success last year in the PO's you can be sure we will see what you have desribed on a regular basis. You missed Ryan high hands on Markov and semi butt end from behind on Max.
Has anyone watched how Crosby has faired in the last two PO's! Guess what he is getting the same treatment we are talking about. The after whistle antics that are just on the line will get pushed until called. The only way to eliminate them is to have your own referee. I like Prusty but for gods sakes people he is a fly wieght compared to the typical beligerent. He best attribute is managing not to get killed. Prusty is far more effective on the ice when he's concentrating on forcing the play.

 

[habsfanatics*]

You're confusing causation and coloration.

I'm not confusing anything, I'm being deliberately obtuse. Just because something is hard/difficult to quantify doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm not confusing causation with correlation. I'm acting a fool.

 

[habsfanatics*]

You think that a tool used to create a turnover is of the same value as something that happens when they play is dead?? Really?

No, I'm basically saying, prove that it helps. If you can't, then it doesn't. Isn't that the methodology used against fighting?

 

[Account Terminated]

Well this one has reached the limit.

Someone can start part four... if you guys really want one.