Do the Devils have Martin Brodeur problem? (goalie management)

[Machinehead]

I wish he didn’t work in the organization. I also fear he’s the next GM for the team, whether that’s in 2 years from now or 10 years from now. So Fitz better get it together for next year.

I’m not sure I like that quote. I’ve really shredded the goalie coach here (who HE hired and brought in, by the way) and I still think he sucks, but I was just posting last night that the goalie decisions with this team seem like they’ve been off for quite some time and I’ve wondered if they’re coming from above. It’s weird Kahkonen didn’t get to start after a shutout. This team has had a problem with running goalies into the ground for several years now. Even if the goalie sucks.

I’m not sure if that quote particularly is indicative of it or not though.

If Brodeur has a large influence on the goaltending infrastructure in NJ, I wonder if there's a "Gretzky in Phoenix" effect where it's like "just teach what I did" and nobody can do what he did.

Like, Lundqvist is extremely knowledgable, great on tv, and might even know or thing or two roster-wise, but he would be the worst goalie coach, or the worst person to be involved with the hires. "Sit as far back as you can always on your knees and just get to everything" would not be good advice for a normal goaltender.

 

[Peasy]

I know youre joking, but thats also a good point. Standing goaltending has all but disapeared, and was much mkre friendly on the joints, particularly the knees.

Yup. People should try and count how many times a goalie will go up and down in an entire game. its an absurd amount, and uses a lot of your body. If someone has the puck in the corner theres a good chance the goalie is half down hugging the post, it goes around to the other corner, the goalie is going to push and slide to the other post. Theyre non-stop up and down now during games.

 

[HolyHagelin]

It’s easy to just “old man yells at cloud” react to this, but I have a counterpoint.

In 2008 the Texas Rangers were one of the worst pitching teams in baseball. Nolan Ryan that year set out to get his pitchers in better shape and get them used to throwing heavier workloads, made it an organizational goal for the minors as well.

People had the exact same reaction - Nolan was a freak, just because he could do it doesn’t mean anyone could, etc.

What actually happened is that the Rangers had an immediate upswing in their pitching results, finishing in the top half of the AL in ERA from 2009-2013. They won a lot more as a direct result.

Sometimes we swing too far in one direction, and it’s ok to acknowledge it.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Idk about 65-70 games, but I do wonder how much development might be stalled by a reduced workload.

 

[Ceremony]

09-10 he played 70+ We're not talking ancient history here.

Odd, based on this thread I thought Brodeur played in the black and white days when players used sticks they had whittled themselves out of fallen tree branches.

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

39-year old Brodeur played 83 games (reg and playoffs) in 2011-12.

I think he may have a point.

 

[abo9]

Yup. People should try and count how many times a goalie will go up and down in an entire game. its an absurd amount, and uses a lot of your body. If someone has the puck in the corner theres a good chance the goalie is half down hugging the post, it goes around to the other corner, the goalie is going to push and slide to the other post. Theyre non-stop up and down now during games.

I played in goals, and someone would lose count before the first 5 minutes of action in the goalie's zone. But Brodeur is screaming at clouds for no reason. Beside him, the goalies from the early 2000s were playing the same amount of games as the goalies of today - at least the 30th most played goalies.

It's not even news lol

 

[abo9]

It’s easy to just “old man yells at cloud” react to this, but I have a counterpoint.

In 2008 the Texas Rangers were one of the worst pitching teams in baseball. Nolan Ryan that year set out to get his pitchers in better shape and get them used to throwing heavier workloads, made it an organizational goal for the minors as well.

People had the exact same reaction - Nolan was a freak, just because he could do it doesn’t mean anyone could, etc.

What actually happened is that the Rangers had an immediate upswing in their pitching results, finishing in the top half of the AL in ERA from 2009-2013. They won a lot more as a direct result.

Sometimes we swing too far in one direction, and it’s ok to acknowledge it.

Except that, if you looks at actual percentage of games started for goalies between 2000 and 2004, and do the same exercise for goalies in the past 4 seasons, Brodeur is the lone wolf at 90% of games started. Everyone else (his era and new era included), are around the 70%-80% mark for the top goalies, then slowly dwindles down the the exact same 42% for the 30th most played goalie.

1995-1996 and the next 3 seasons? Almost the same exact results. Brodeur at the top with 85% of games started (Hellebuyck sits at 78% in the past 4 seasons). Then Hasek at 79%, and the 30th most played goalie at 41%. It's actually kind of crazy how consistent these numbers are between 2 periods 30 years apart.

 

[hurdemz]

Having the most wins does not and never will equal being the GOAT.

How about a Calder Trophy, four Vezina Trophies and five Jennings Trophies, and he was a member of three Stanley Cup championships. He was also named to the First or Second All-Star Team on seven occasions?

 

[Heffyhoof]

Hockey was slow paced back in his playing days and skaters/coaching have adjusted as well. The game is played at a much higher pace.

I guess all teams should do what he says instead too?

Okay Bettman. "The product is better than it ever was" is such a joke.

 

[AvroArrow]

Load management has become a common issue across most major sports now, the NBA is dealing with a lot of this as well. It seems like players are training much harder now, but also not smarter. It's taking a bigger toll on their joints/muscles than in years past and guys need more rest.

I'm not sure exactly what the main reason is but as a former trainer I think it has to do with where and how guys are training. If we're using turf and non absorbent surfaces, guys knees/ankles and joints etc. will have a much more difficult time, there's no give and the impact of your weight just gets pushed back into your legs/knees. I've seen lots of younger athletes suffer significant knee and back injuries from training on turf or asphalt or other hard surfaces. Had a kid couple months ago completely blow out his knee from running suicides outside for training. I urged him and his trainer to use a track or grass or something instead, ACL/MCL both gone and needs surgery now.

 

[Mr Kot]

Marty the goalie coach: “stand up more! Absolutely, one more piece of pie, the bigger you are the less net to shoot at. See your wife’s sister? Nail her! That’s your new relationship. We’re gonna have jerseys that say jersey and 1 goalie and weird christmases, goddammit!”

Starbucks employee:
“Ok, I just need a name for the coffee..”

I can literally hear his voice too.

 

[Rebels57]

How about a Calder Trophy, four Vezina Trophies and five Jennings Trophies, and he was a member of three Stanley Cup championships. He was also named to the First or Second All-Star Team on seven occasions?

He's a top 10 goalie, but his job was made significantly easier playing behind those Devils teams. Out of his peers, Hasek and Roy were better. My best friend is a Devils fan and he has always held the same opinion that Hasek and Roy were better as well.

 

[digmor crusher]

Yup, players are babied too much now, soon it will be like basketball and their asking for days off during the season.

 

[Voight]

He should be happy, at this rate his wins record will never be broken.

He's a top 10 goalie, but his job was made significantly easier playing behind those Devils teams. Out of his peers, Hasek and Roy were better. My best friend is a Devils fan and he has always held the same opinion that Hasek and Roy were better as well.

he also didn't start winning Vezinas until Roy, Hasek and Belfour were past their primes.

& I dont wanna derail the thread, but the 04 and 07 Vezinas should've arguably gone to Turco & Luongo.

 

[tarheelhockey]

As usual, neither the old guys nor the young guys can see outside the parameters of their own generation.

There are guys in this league who could play 65 games instead of 45 without suffering meaningful negatives. There are also backups who can give you 40 games without meaningful negatives. Some guys are serious injury risks and others are not. Conventional wisdom is grounded in expert intelligence. So was conventional wisdom 20 years ago. All of these things can be true at once.

The only people who are mistaken are the ones insisting that there’s only one way to approach this game.

 

[Brodeur]

He's a top 10 goalie, but his job was made significantly easier playing behind those Devils teams. Out of his peers, Hasek and Roy were better. My best friend is a Devils fan and he has always held the same opinion that Hasek and Roy were better as well.

I take Hasek/Roy as well, but I think some folks get laser focused on goaltending being looking up their hockeydb and checking out save percentages. Some of Marty's best seasons came post-lockout after Stevens/Niedermayer left. Marty didn't exactly have an All-Star D in front of him. I just found it a lazy argument to diminish his success and attribute it to mythical system rather than noting that Marty's puckhandling made things easier for the D as well.

One of Marty's best individual seasons was 2007-08. This was the Devils D:

Oduya (19:02) - Martin (23:53)
White (19:40) - Mottau (20:39)
Vishnevski (15:32) - Greene (19:30)

Mike Mottau hadn't played in the NHL since 2003 and was suddenly getting 20 minutes on his weak side. Andy Greene would be a solid pro but that season was his first full time season in the NHL. Vitali Vishnevski cleared waivers after the season and was loaned to the KHL.

As a meager beer league goalie, I confidently say that there were better goalies at stopping the puck. But Brodeur's influence on a game did go beyond that.

Unfortunately with his continued success and the Devils shuffling in replacement level D, it became a misguided argument that the "system" somehow allowed that as opposed to Brodeur being a vital cog.

 

[dirtydanglez]

just because marty did it doesnt mean every goalie can or should do it. i hope marty is just flexing there as it seems like a bad idea.

 

[Xirik]

I suggest reading the article instead of reacting to what the OP posted.

As usual, neither the old guys nor the young guys can see outside the parameters of their own generation.

There are guys in this league who could play 65 games instead of 45 without suffering meaningful negatives. There are also backups who can give you 40 games without meaningful negatives. Some guys are serious injury risks and others are not. Conventional wisdom is grounded in expert intelligence. So was conventional wisdom 20 years ago. All of these things can be true at once.

The only people who are mistaken are the ones insisting that there’s only one way to approach this game.

That's basically what Brodeur said.

 

[DVision44]

As usual, neither the old guys nor the young guys can see outside the parameters of their own generation.

There are guys in this league who could play 65 games instead of 45 without suffering meaningful negatives. There are also backups who can give you 40 games without meaningful negatives. Some guys are serious injury risks and others are not. Conventional wisdom is grounded in expert intelligence. So was conventional wisdom 20 years ago. All of these things can be true at once.

The only people who are mistaken are the ones insisting that there’s only one way to approach this game.

Did you actually read the article? That's what he said...

 

[bert]

I mean Brodeur played that load and was the GOAT so I think he knows better than hfboards users

HF users look at charts! they know better obviously.

He thinks goalies should go back to playing 70+ games like in the 90s...

I suppose you would be a far better person to have an opinion on goaltending.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Did you actually read the article? That's what he said...

Did you actually read my post? Where did I say I disagreed with Brodeur?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

HF users look at charts! they know better obviously.


I suppose you would be a far better person to have an opinion on goaltending.

Doesn't this response attempt to curtail 95% of what we talk about on HFBoards?

We might as well shut down the Trade/FA board, for starters. "How dare you compare your opinion of this to the opinion of Ron Francis, a paid NHL general manager WHO MADE THE TRADE?"

I mean, heck. Makes my job easier, I guess.

(Also - just kidding, Ron Francis never makes trades.)

 

[GeeoffBrown]

perhaps Marty has a killer routine for stamina that he can share with Devils' goalies?

 

[Brodeur]

perhaps Marty has a killer routine for stamina that he can share with Devils' goalies?

Not sure intermission Sprites would be recommended by nutritionists nowadays.