Do not Draft lists

[Jee]

Coincidentally Sportsnet/Brian Burke just put up a video discussing that the Leafs had Nail Yakupov as a "do not draft" in 2012.

Here's the vid (starts talking about it at ~ 2:00):

I'd put Burke on my Do-not-hire-as-GM list

 

[tony d]

A guy like Angelo Esposito would be on a few lists I figure. Looks like teams were wise to have him on their do not draft lists.

 

[lomiller1]

What I’ve seen suggested is that team’s lists are not much more than 100 players long and some highly ranked guys just don’t make it onto that list. Apparently lists are divergent enough that a 100ish players is all you need to get you though a 217 player draft.
If this is indeed correct, there likely are no "do not draft" lists, just a whole pile of players that are drafted even though some teams don’t have them on their list at all.

 

[93LEAFS]

A couple of guys I remember hearing that were ND on factors outside of skill or Russian factor: Merkley (headcase/hated by teammates), Ho-Sang (headcase/lazy/entitled), McCann (terrible person/bad teammate), Kirill Kabanov (drinking/substance issues and work ethic), Cizikis (rugby incident), Sean Day (work ethic/rock dumb), Duclair (Work ethic), and Shinkaruk (work ethic).

Keep in mind, NHL teams rank a list of between 80 and 120 or so prospects. They don't rank a full 217 person board to account for every pick. They just rank what they think is worth drafting.

 

[93LEAFS]

What I’ve seen suggested is that team’s lists are not much more than 100 players long and some highly ranked guys just don’t make it onto that list. Apparently lists are divergent enough that a 100ish players is all you need to get you though a 217 player draft.
If this is indeed correct, there likely are no "do not draft" lists, just a whole pile of players that are drafted even though some teams don’t have them on their list at all.

There are still guys who are specifically avoided due to issues that extend past hockey. Those are people who they generally mean when discussing an ND grade. Not the fringe kids who they wouldn't draft for skill related reasons.

 

[93LEAFS]

I'd put Burke on my Do-not-hire-as-GM list

Burke should possibly be on a do-not-hire list, but he absolutely got the 5th overall pick correct and was right about Yakupov.

 

[hizzoner]

As Moskau said, there was lack of information due to privacy concerns. But there were also conflicting reports, and false reporting, at the time.

There was talk Cizikas pile-drove him. Cizikas claimed it was a headlock as self-defense (Idk if he actually pled "self-defens"e, but I think his story was more inline with it being retaliatory/reactionary to something Castillo did). I think the consensus was though, that even if was adjacent to rugby-inherent-violence, there was added aggression. Castillo's family claimed they believe it was an accident (the injury and death) and did not want to hold Cizikas criminally responsible; they also did later speak out about violence/aggression/fighting in sports too though.

Most of that is from memory, though I did look up the Castillo's family's take just to be sure I remembered that right.

The play was not a rugby play. It did take place after a rugby scrum. Casey was charged under the Young Offenders Act and the names of accused are normally banned from being publicized. The judge ruled there was not the requisite intent to convict of any thing other than manslaughter but the unlawful act leading to death resulted in the conviction.

 

[Esq]

I was scouting with a club for a few years and every year there were a handful of ND cases. One year, we had inside info that one highly regarded prospect had rather severe psychological issues and that another in the same draft was considering quitting hockey. They were both drafted in the 1st round and both lived up to their respective red flags (neither ever played an NHL game).

Rob Schremp was an ND in his year and so was Kyle Beach. Character. Akim Aliu got some support from some of our staff but was as close to an ND as you can be.

A few players every year are confirmed to have drug/severe alcohol issues, they usually land on the ND list. I will not name them for obvious reasons. One got his life turned around and eventually became a player (not for my team). Good on him.

Love that the Hawks drafted both of those idiots.

 

[lomiller1]

There are still guys who are specifically avoided due to issues that extend past hockey. Those are people who they generally mean when discussing an ND grade. Not the fringe kids who they wouldn't draft for skill related reasons.

If a team isn’t willing to take a player in the first 3 rounds they don’t make their list at all. In the teams eyes at least, there are no fringe players on their list.

 

[93LEAFS]

If a team isn’t willing to take a player in the first 3 rounds they don’t make their list at all. In the teams eyes at least, there are no fringe players on their list.

They would probably trade down from the 3rd even if they have a kid ranked as 75 or so. They tend to use the A (1st round), B (2nd/3rd round), C (4th-7th) round grades. Not everyone ranked in the top 31 has a first round grade. There tends to be about 20 to 24.

My point was, the ND's generally refer to kids they refuse to rank because of something outside of on-ice skill-set or performance.

 

[I am toxic]

Bryan Fogarty in the '87 draft.

So, so sad.

 

[sabresEH]

Would love to hear the Kyle Beach stories, always thought him a really solid bottom 6 F.

The stories are he's an absolute psycho. Anyone who did their homework knew not to draft him.

Love that the Hawks drafted both of those idiots.

Who would've thought they'd get into a food fight as black aces with both of them being such good boys

 

[lomiller1]

They would probably trade down from the 3rd even if they have a kid ranked as 75 or so. They tend to use the A (1st round), B (2nd/3rd round), C (4th-7th) round grades. Not everyone ranked in the top 31 has a first round grade. There tends to be about 20 to 24.

My point was, the ND's generally refer to kids they refuse to rank because of something outside of on-ice skill-set or performance.

My point is that with so few players on the teams actual lists, there are a lot of skilled players being left off everyone’s list every year.

Eg, consider McKenzie’s rankings. He goes 3 rounds deep but with only ~100 players, by definition every team is leaving a lot of these players off their list altogether. There may be some higher profile ones in our minds, but to the teams themselves these probably are not that out of the ordinary. They are just one of a number of talented players they don’t have listed for any number of reasons.

 

[93LEAFS]

My point is that with so few players on the teams actual lists, there are a lot of skilled players being left off everyone’s list every year.

Eg, consider McKenzie’s rankings. He goes 3 rounds deep but with only ~100 players, by definition every team is leaving a lot of these players off their list altogether. There may be some higher profile ones in our minds, but to the teams themselves these probably are not that out of the ordinary. They are just one of a number of talented players they don’t have listed for any number of reasons.

They view situations like Beach, Merkley and Ho-Sang as unique.

 

[eco's bones]

Rob Schremp got killed in a Rangers draft video in 2004. That was Don Maloney--Tom Renney back then.

 

[BondraTime]

Beach was black listed from Hockey Canada as well due to an incident at the Hlinka camp I believe

 

[Sticktape]

Wilde dropped like a rock after combine. Pronman alluded to interviews or character or something dropping him a bunch. I never got any clarification on what exactly it was.

I've always wanted clarification on this.

 

[joestevens29]

Are guys actually on do not draft lists or we won't take him until later in the draft?

I tend to believe if a guy is a 1st round talent you'd really consider him in round 4 or whatever it may be.

I think it's fair to ask that while they have a lot to overcome is it more than a late round pick that doesn't have the clear talent?

I look at Kassian. Whose career was pretty much done. He was also public enemy #1 at one time in Edmonton. Gets traded to us and straightened out his life. Now a lot of fans love him and his teammates for sure love him.

 

[Ducati Boy]

A few answers...

It's true that teams come to the draft with about just over 100 names. This will include about 70 players that would be at or near the top on most teams' lists plus 30 or 40 that you consider possible good value picks. One year, our 110 picks were actually all used up when our 7th round came about, a rarity. We huddled quickly and went with our Finnish scout's suggestion, an obscure Finn.

You never choose a player who you think has only AHL upside even if he is a good junior player. Your last 3 round selections will be players with what you consider high ceilings/low floors - often players from obscure leagues, countries, or teams, re-entries, goalies, injured players, or players with one outstanding NHL-level skill. In other words, imagine a 6th round choice between a 5'11 170 C with 20-25-45 stats as a CHL 17 yr old on a decent team but with no exceptional features vs. a previously undrafted 19 y.o. player from the AJHL who suddenly 'got it' this year, has a wicked shot, and is going to a decent NCAA program. You take the latter guy.

Regarding ND players, ND usually means ND. First, you usually know that somebody will take the player in question in the top 50 so why bother to rank him? And, even if he somehow fell through to the last rounds, no team wants someone who they view as a cancer, psycho, threat, or problem child. You still take that Jr. A guy I wrote about above.

Having said that, the team I was associated did draft a few players who ended up having considerable off-ice issues that derailed their careers, including severe depression and drug addiction. One is now deceased.

I don't have a NDA regarding this stuff but out of some respect for the players involved I don't want to name names. The player who got his life together and made it plays in San Jose.

Not related to the topic at hand, but one of the interesting parts of the draft is the anticipation as your pick approaches and, say, you have three picks you really like at that spot, but 4 teams are drafting ahead of you. And then the three guys you really want get picked off bang-bang-bang. That happened to our 3rd round pick once, even worse, we were picking about 84th and our number 27, 32, 35, and 37 picks were still on the board with 4 teams left picking before us. Then boom, 1, 2 ,3, 4 they were taken. Our next guy was like our number 53. You hear muttering and swearing at the table but you try to keep a poker face. It's particularly chafing if those players go on to become big stars.

 

[Dunl0p]

Tony Deangelo was surely on a couple of lists. Pure speculation here, but he should have been picked earlier based on his talent/stats only

 

[Cizin]

A few answers...

Really enjoy reading your posts. Thanks!

 

[LDF]

Love that the Hawks drafted both of those idiots.

i really thought that they, the players would mature with the rest of the team on them.

boy i was wrong.

 

[Howie Hodge]

"The Pride Of Tokyo", Taro Tsujimoto, must have been on several teams DND list, as he lasted until the 11'th round in 1974.

Issues with reality precluded him from ever having a chance to play in The NHL...

 

[IslesNorway]

A few answers...

It's true that teams come to the draft with about just over 100 names. This will include about 70 players that would be at or near the top on most teams' lists plus 30 or 40 that you consider possible good value picks. One year, our 110 picks were actually all used up when our 7th round came about, a rarity. We huddled quickly and went with our Finnish scout's suggestion, an obscure Finn.

You never choose a player who you think has only AHL upside even if he is a good junior player. Your last 3 round selections will be players with what you consider high ceilings/low floors - often players from obscure leagues, countries, or teams, re-entries, goalies, injured players, or players with one outstanding NHL-level skill. In other words, imagine a 6th round choice between a 5'11 170 C with 20-25-45 stats as a CHL 17 yr old on a decent team but with no exceptional features vs. a previously undrafted 19 y.o. player from the AJHL who suddenly 'got it' this year, has a wicked shot, and is going to a decent NCAA program. You take the latter guy.

Regarding ND players, ND usually means ND. First, you usually know that somebody will take the player in question in the top 50 so why bother to rank him? And, even if he somehow fell through to the last rounds, no team wants someone who they view as a cancer, psycho, threat, or problem child. You still take that Jr. A guy I wrote about above.

Having said that, the team I was associated did draft a few players who ended up having considerable off-ice issues that derailed their careers, including severe depression and drug addiction. One is now deceased.

I don't have a NDA regarding this stuff but out of some respect for the players involved I don't want to name names. The player who got his life together and made it plays in San Jose.

Not related to the topic at hand, but one of the interesting parts of the draft is the anticipation as your pick approaches and, say, you have three picks you really like at that spot, but 4 teams are drafting ahead of you. And then the three guys you really want get picked off bang-bang-bang. That happened to our 3rd round pick once, even worse, we were picking about 84th and our number 27, 32, 35, and 37 picks were still on the board with 4 teams left picking before us. Then boom, 1, 2 ,3, 4 they were taken. Our next guy was like our number 53. You hear muttering and swearing at the table but you try to keep a poker face. It's particularly chafing if those players go on to become big stars.

I love reading those insights you bring. I enjoyed Gare Joyce's book tremendously but I'd love you to write one too!

 

[jonu]

A few answers...

It's true that teams come to the draft with about just over 100 names. This will include about 70 players that would be at or near the top on most teams' lists plus 30 or 40 that you consider possible good value picks. One year, our 110 picks were actually all used up when our 7th round came about, a rarity. We huddled quickly and went with our Finnish scout's suggestion, an obscure Finn.

Does this Finn still play in the NHL?