Do Most Minor League Hockey Teams Profit Year to Year?
- Thread starter My Cozen Dylan
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My Cozen Dylan
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Killion
Registered User
- Feb 19, 2010
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Complicated question as the Minor-Pro Leagues in North America are all structured differently, only the AHL similar to the NHL. There is no real "central source" or reservoir of business inf that combines financial data on the Federal Hockey League, the old Central Hockey League and the ECHL along with the AHL. To say that its a battle, that only a very few Minor League Teams actually turn a profit would be an understatement. Some are quite successful but on the whole, no. We have Minor League Boards here at hfBoards btw, which is where Im going to put this thread as followers of those leagues would have at least both anecdotally along with media reports (which are sparse Im afraid) the type of inf your seeking.
SemireliableSource
Liter-a-cola
For the most part, teams don't turn a profit. There are a few that can make it work but at the same time, you'll see teams so far in the red, you're surprised they were ever even in sniffing distance of the black.
My Cozen Dylan
Registered User
Then how do they stay in existence? Why bother losing money every year?
And is there any proof of this, or are you all making educated guesses?
And is there any proof of this, or are you all making educated guesses?
SemireliableSource
Liter-a-cola
It's a tax write off for a rich person or company.
And other than personal experience seeing the business side of teams, I don't have any verification. I can tell you how much money a team like the Mississippi Surge was in the red for when Tim Kerr took over but since I have no link to prove it, I won't post it to avoid breaking forum rules about rumors and evidence.
And other than personal experience seeing the business side of teams, I don't have any verification. I can tell you how much money a team like the Mississippi Surge was in the red for when Tim Kerr took over but since I have no link to prove it, I won't post it to avoid breaking forum rules about rumors and evidence.
JeffNYI
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- Jun 16, 2006
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A large majority of minor league hockey teams at the AA and A levels lose money. I don't know about the AHL.
The owners bother losing money every year for a wide variety of reasons, but the common thread I noticed was that every owner seemed to believe they were much smarter than everyone else they encountered - and that the reason their teams were losing money was because of staff deficiencies.
To them, it had nothing to do with the fact that the asset they foolishly purchased is, was and always would be a money-pit.
Was VP of Corporate Partnerships for a AA team. Had inside knowledge and access to numbers.
Paul Bunyan
Registered User
I know in the ECHL back when Toledo was still a "new" team that in the playoffs all teams in it never made a profit unless they made it to the finals I believe. Toledo "broke even" their first year / first playoff season, all other teams lose money in postseason play---or at least did.
I would assume if there is ever an official deal between leagues, that might help stabilize more franchises.
I would assume if there is ever an official deal between leagues, that might help stabilize more franchises.
Playoffs are generally money losers for minor league teams, because they can't do group sales for playoff games. The hope is that a team will make a long run, which encourages a strong walk up crowd.
Sports Enthusiast
Not Here To Be Liked
Lol. If I had to guess between the AHL and formerly all AA hockey I would say you could count them all on one hand and three franchises were easy
Fort Wayne, Hershey and Alaska. I would also guess the Colorado Eagles and St. John's Ice Caps
Fort Wayne, Hershey and Alaska. I would also guess the Colorado Eagles and St. John's Ice Caps
Paul Bunyan
Registered User
You wouldn't think so necessarily, especially with teams with strong fanbases (Toledo) but it seems to be the case.
I remember after years of no playoffs, the Walleye got in and....hardly anyone showed (in comparison to normal games) it was a joke and played right into what most of the haters would talk about management.
With a lot of teams now closer to each other, especially in the East/Central area of the country I can see traveling fans making an impact in that regard and especially if the E becomes a legit AA supplier to the NHL and more franchises stabilize.
Andre Poodle Lussier
Registered User
One would think the ECHL would streamline the playoffs because of this, in deference to trying to lose as little money as possible.
Paul Bunyan
Registered User
The problem is "getting into them" gives you something to brag about, people complain otherwise.
It's a catch 22 in some ways.
HansH
Unwelcome Spectre
It's not just about bragging -- it's about the revenue. If there's a chance of post-season play, casual fans are more likely to shell out their money for tickets. If the team is already mathematically eliminated from the post-season, that would seriously dry up that revenue stream... so teams need to keep the hope of a championship alive, thus more playoff spots. So yes, indeed, a bit of a double bind.
No Fun Shogun
34-38-61-10-13-15
Eh, only five might be a bit of a stretch, and I'd add Chicago as an easy profitable team.
But yeah, no doubt. Profitability in minor league hockey is undoubtedly the exception, and not the rule.
While the team's balance sheet may be in the red, the owners in Lake Erie and San Antonio may make money when concessions, parking, etc. are factored in (the AHL owners control the arena in those cases).
Cyclones Rock
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- Jun 12, 2008
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In 1998-99, there were 63 non AHL minor league hockey teams (IHL-16, ECHL-27,CHL-11, UHL-9.) This year, there are 36 (ECHL-28, SPHL-8). ***The FHL doesn't count
*** That's a decrease of 43% in 16 years. Probably safe to assume that making a buck in the minors is very difficult. Also safe to assume that most franchises aren't rich men's toys nor worthwhile tax write offs or the numbers wouldn't have precipitously dropped to the levels which they have in such a short time.
The AHL has grown from 19 to 30 in that time, but the evolution of the development system to a one AHL team for each NHL team is responsible for that-along with the demise of the IHL which had teams serve as the #1 affiliate for a few NHL organIzations. More and more AHL teams are becoming owned by their NHL parent clubs and when an NHL team owns its AHL affiliate, it is usually willing to absorb fairly substantial losses in operating these franchises as part of their player development costs.
I would expect non AHL minor league teams to continue to contract as time goes on. I don't see the ECHL having more than 20 teams (from its current 28) by 2020. Would love to be very wrong about this.
*** That's a decrease of 43% in 16 years. Probably safe to assume that making a buck in the minors is very difficult. Also safe to assume that most franchises aren't rich men's toys nor worthwhile tax write offs or the numbers wouldn't have precipitously dropped to the levels which they have in such a short time.The AHL has grown from 19 to 30 in that time, but the evolution of the development system to a one AHL team for each NHL team is responsible for that-along with the demise of the IHL which had teams serve as the #1 affiliate for a few NHL organIzations. More and more AHL teams are becoming owned by their NHL parent clubs and when an NHL team owns its AHL affiliate, it is usually willing to absorb fairly substantial losses in operating these franchises as part of their player development costs.
I would expect non AHL minor league teams to continue to contract as time goes on. I don't see the ECHL having more than 20 teams (from its current 28) by 2020. Would love to be very wrong about this.
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Andre Poodle Lussier
Registered User
Are there examples of teams that have drawn better on average in the playoffs (not the championship series) than in the regular season? I'm curious of know how many casual fans really pay attention in April, May given weather is nicer and families have youth sports and other outdoor activities going on.
And, with regard to the playoffs, streamlining to me means shorter series and not necessarily fewer teams (best of 3 or 5 outside of the Championship).
This would be interesting to research, regarding the attendance in the non championship rounds of playoffs.
Based on casually or even diligently looking at turnstile figures for playoff games on league websites the past 7 0r 8 years....I would say few if any. The same level, perhaps, but I can't recall one where it was higher in the playoffs. That is unscientific and just looking but it becomes difficult without season ticket holders, group sales, higher per price tickets, outdoor events, kids school events, etc.
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