Discussion: The Guy Lapointe #5 retirement ceremony.

[Whitesnake]

By the way, Gainey won a Conn Smythe Trophy on a team that had all these other guys whose numbers are retired. How could that be, how could he be better than every single one of those guys on the way to 16 playoff wins, without being legendary himself? Do you think it was a one-time flash in the pan? Don't make me laugh!!

Personnally, it's all about the fact that retiring a jersey means that it makes no sense that another guy would wear it after a guy wore it. I mean, nobody would have ever been able to wear #1 (Plante), #2 (Harvey) #4 (Béliveau), #9 (Richard) and #10 (Lafleur) and #16 (H.Richard). That would have been it. I would have honored the rest by having a "tougher to enter ring of honor" with the other top players. Would have surely recognize as a whole "The big Three", and the top goalies of this franchise (From Hainsworth to Dryden to Roy) 'Cause for this team, it's either you retire a really select number of jerseys. Or you almost retire them all.....'Cause now there's a case for Shutt......Lemaire. Geez, Michel Bergeron started to talk about Claude Provost and Guy Carbonneau. Some in here talk about Koivu. It's ridiculous. They've created a monster because of their inability to ice a decent team, we had to excite the fans with any other ways possible.

 

[InglewoodJack]

Personnally, it's all about the fact that retiring a jersey means that it makes no sense that another guy would wear it after a guy wore it. I mean, nobody would have ever been able to wear #1 (Plante), #2 (Harvey) #4 (Béliveau), #9 (Richard) and #10 (Lafleur) and #16 (H.Richard). That would have been it. I would have honored the rest by having a "tougher to enter ring of honor" with the other top players. Would have surely recognize as a whole "The big Three", and the top goalies of this franchise (From Hainsworth to Dryden to Roy) 'Cause for this team, it's either you retire a really select number of jerseys. Or you almost retire them all.....'Cause now there's a case for Shutt......Lemaire. Geez, Michel Bergeron started to talk about Claude Provost and Guy Carbonneau. Some in here talk about Koivu. It's ridiculous. They've created a monster because of their inability to ice a decent team, we had to excite the fans with any other ways possible.

What? No? What's the problem with having a lot of players retired? We're the oldest franchise in the league. The most winningest. The most HOFers. Hell, half of our "fringe" number retirees would be the best all time players on their respective clubs. I think this ring of honour BS is dumb. If you're taking a number out of circulation, you hang it out, or you just don't retire it.

As for Carbonneau or Provost, there's no case. You're taking what some hacks on TV are saying seriously which normally no one would. As for Koivu, as much as I'd love to see his jersey hang because of what he represents to me, in reality he'd be the worst player retired by some margin. Every single Hab retired is at least a HHOFer.

To me, it's very cool to walk into the Bell Centre and see so many jerseys hanging up.

 

[Bob Cole]

Chills down my spine as the banners of the big three were lined up. So proud to be a fan of this team.

Speaking of the big 3, anyone get a chance to read big birds new book yet? 2/3 in and loving it

 

[Whitesnake]

What? No? What's the problem with having a lot of players retired? We're the oldest franchise in the league. The most winningest. The most HOFers. Hell, half of our "fringe" number retirees would be the best all time players on their respective clubs. I think this ring of honour BS is dumb. If you're taking a number out of circulation, you hang it out, or you just don't retire it.

As for Carbonneau or Provost, there's no case. You're taking what some hacks on TV are saying seriously which normally no one would. As for Koivu, as much as I'd love to see his jersey hang because of what he represents to me, in reality he'd be the worst player retired by some margin. Every single Hab retired is at least a HHOFer.

To me, it's very cool to walk into the Bell Centre and see so many jerseys hanging up.

Old franchise or not, I'm pretty old fashioned in that regard and loves my team to wear small numbers. There's actually nothing wrong with having a lot of numbers, just that personnally, I would not have seen it that way. We may be the oldest franchise, hence we may have seen it as a franchise with higher standards to get your jersey retired than the other teams.

I personnally would have been fine with seeing players being recognized than their jerseys being up. I'd take more recent Cups banners than newly retired jerseys falling from that roof....

 

[Goldthorpe]

If subban has a long career as a hab and wins a championship, he has a chance.

Markov is hurt by his absence due to knee issues, and lack of championship.

Saku is the yardstick for the dark period of the '00. If his number isn't retired, then nobody of this generation will. Only a cup could change that for Markov.

 

[Goldthorpe]

As for Carbonneau or Provost, there's no case. You're taking what some hacks on TV are saying seriously which normally no one would. As for Koivu, as much as I'd love to see his jersey hang because of what he represents to me, in reality he'd be the worst player retired by some margin. Every single Hab retired is at least a HHOFer.

Serious question: is Koivu a HHOfer? Maybe not first eligible year, but down the road? One of the best player to come out of Finland after Selanne. Captain of the national team. I know it's a bit of a stretch without any big championship (aside from the '95 World Championship gold medal), I'm just asking.

 

[DekeLikeYouMeanIt]

Watched the mini presser after. His laugh is awesome. You can really tell he enjoyed that night and the Big 3 were a great sight.

 

[Dj Papa]

I pk! Cool article

Mods. Please merge if necessary!

http://www.rds.ca/hockey/canadiens/une-inspiration-pour-subban-1.1948262

 

[BaseballCoach]

Personnally, it's all about the fact that retiring a jersey means that it makes no sense that another guy would wear it after a guy wore it. I mean, nobody would have ever been able to wear #1 (Plante), #2 (Harvey) #4 (Béliveau), #9 (Richard) and #10 (Lafleur) and #16 (H.Richard). That would have been it. I would have honored the rest by having a "tougher to enter ring of honor" with the other top players. Would have surely recognize as a whole "The big Three", and the top goalies of this franchise (From Hainsworth to Dryden to Roy) 'Cause for this team, it's either you retire a really select number of jerseys. Or you almost retire them all.....'Cause now there's a case for Shutt......Lemaire. Geez, Michel Bergeron started to talk about Claude Provost and Guy Carbonneau. Some in here talk about Koivu. It's ridiculous. They've created a monster because of their inability to ice a decent team, we had to excite the fans with any other ways possible.

Hey Whitesnake, Larry Robinson was a far, far, far, far, far better defenceman than Henri Richard was a centerman. Personally I have him as #2 of all time, but others may differ and so I will say that Robinson was somewhere between 2nd and 9th of all time, all teams. In a virtual tie with Shore, Harvey, Park, Lapointe, Savard, Potvin and Bourque. All of them more dominant than Lidstrom no matter how many Norrises the latter won, and Coffey was not good enough defensively to reach the very top.

Only Bobby Orr was clearly better than the Big Bird, or any other defenceman for that matter.

As for the rest of your post: Provost, Koivu, no way. Carbonneau neither. JC Tremblay, Tom Johnson and Mats Naslund would be ahead of all of those, and I still say no to them all.

 

[Price My Man Crush]

Serious question: is Koivu a HHOfer? Maybe not first eligible year, but down the road? One of the best player to come out of Finland after Selanne. Captain of the national team. I know it's a bit of a stretch without any big championship (aside from the '95 World Championship gold medal), I'm just asking.

Saku Koivu is in the top 3 for Finnish players. 4 Olympics medals I think. Does that mean he should get his jersey retired? Before of his international play?

Sure, the guy is a big part of the history of this team. Nobody is going to say otherwise. Still, don't we retire "excellence"?

 

[InglewoodJack]

Old franchise or not, I'm pretty old fashioned in that regard and loves my team to wear small numbers. There's actually nothing wrong with having a lot of numbers, just that personnally, I would not have seen it that way. We may be the oldest franchise, hence we may have seen it as a franchise with higher standards to get your jersey retired than the other teams.

I personnally would have been fine with seeing players being recognized than their jerseys being up. I'd take more recent Cups banners than newly retired jerseys falling from that roof....

Oh, if you want ot make the argument that no jerseys at all should be retired, than I might agree with you. But that could put pressure on a player (imagine a career AHLer coming up and donning #9?). But if you're gonna retire a few, retire all who deserve it. Looking at who other teams have retired, we still have the highest standards. Plenty of non HHOFers have their numbers retired. Koivu a player who was excellent, but probably won't make the hall would have his number retired by a lot of teams (had he played for florida, arizona, washington, etc). But with us, he's so far out of the discussion people don't even consider him seriously. I think he should have his jersey retired but whatever. It would take a lot of balls to wear his number anyways.

I do agree about wishing to see more cup banners...

 

[Price My Man Crush]

Oh, if you want ot make the argument that no jerseys at all should be retired, than I might agree with you. But that could put pressure on a player (imagine a career AHLer coming up and donning #9?). But if you're gonna retire a few, retire all who deserve it. Looking at who other teams have retired, we still have the highest standards. Plenty of non HHOFers have their numbers retired. Koivu a player who was excellent, but probably won't make the hall would have his number retired by a lot of teams (had he played for florida, arizona, washington, etc). But with us, he's so far out of the discussion people don't even consider him seriously. I think he should have his jersey retired but whatever. It would take a lot of balls to wear his number anyways.

I do agree about wishing to see more cup banners...

Gomez.
Gallagher right now.

Lol.

 

[InglewoodJack]

Gomez.
Gallagher right now.

Lol.

I know that. I don't think it's right lol

But the way that management essentially threw Saku out the door when he left, it's no surprise his number was tossed back into the pile.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

I know that. I don't think it's right lol

But the way that management essentially threw Saku out the door when he left, it's no surprise his number was tossed back into the pile.

Maybe it's because Saku wasn't all that good a hockey player and the lockerroom toward the end of his stint with the Habs was fragmented and in shambles.

Gainey, a man of tradition, and Gillette and Boivin, who loved Koivu, were rather okay with him being unceremoniously excised from the team.

Might be that you just have a fetish for retiring numbers?

 

[DAChampion]

For all we know Koivu wanted to leave.

 

[Whitesnake]

Hey Whitesnake, Larry Robinson was a far, far, far, far, far better defenceman than Henri Richard was a centerman. Personally I have him as #2 of all time, but others may differ and so I will say that Robinson was somewhere between 2nd and 9th of all time, all teams. In a virtual tie with Shore, Harvey, Park, Lapointe, Savard, Potvin and Bourque. All of them more dominant than Lidstrom no matter how many Norrises the latter won, and Coffey was not good enough defensively to reach the very top.

Only Bobby Orr was clearly better than the Big Bird, or any other defenceman for that matter.

As for the rest of your post: Provost, Koivu, no way. Carbonneau neither. JC Tremblay, Tom Johnson and Mats Naslund would be ahead of all of those, and I still say no to them all.

Henri Richard has a record that will NEVER be broken. And that record involves what this sport is all about, winning the big ones at the end. And he was a great player nonetheless.

Somehow, I think that Harvey for what he represents, how he played the position and the era he was in is ahead of Robinson. Of course, I saw Robinson play so I prefer him....but others would say otherwise. As far as Robinson being far far away everybody else, well my problem with that is that everytime you ask everybody who the best of the big three were....answers are all over the place. So it's not as clear cut. Guy Lapointe didn't have the privilege to be paired with Savard and Robinson. And had a great career, greatest scoring d-man with his 28 goals in one season. Somehow, I might also believe Robinson was the best 'cause he seemed more complete than everything else. From offense to defense to toughness. Yet, it's my and your opinion. Others will say something else.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Henri Richard has a record that will NEVER be broken. And that record involves what this sport is all about, winning the big ones at the end. And he was a great player nonetheless.

Somehow, I think that Harvey for what he represents, how he played the position and the era he was in is ahead of Robinson. Of course, I saw Robinson play so I prefer him....but others would say otherwise. As far as Robinson being far far away everybody else, well my problem with that is that everytime you ask everybody who the best of the big three were....answers are all over the place. So it's not as clear cut. Guy Lapointe didn't have the privilege to be paired with Savard and Robinson. And had a great career, greatest scoring d-man with his 28 goals in one season. Somehow, I might also believe Robinson was the best 'cause he seemed more complete than everything else. From offense to defense to toughness. Yet, it's my and your opinion. Others will say something else.

Which is why I said that in the end, he could be 2nd through to 9th.

And I agree that Henri is very deservedly there for the 11 Cups, most of which he was 2nd line centerman for. Behind a legend for first line center.

My point was that if you have only six guys retired, five of whom were on the 50s dynasty, then it is really unfair to the 70s dynasty, who had more than just Lafleur in the Elite category. I used Robinson as an example, but Lapointe and Savard were also both better than Doug Harvey, or at least about equal. Lemaire had a better PPG than Richard and was better defensively, and with 8 cups deserves the honour.

Dryden won as many Cups as Plante in less time and in a much bigger league where there were more than two or three contenders per year. Gainey had no peer for the kind of player he was. Maybe Butch Bouchard, Elmer Lach and Yvan Cournoyer weren't quite at the same level as a few of the others, I'll grant you that. But they were still HOFers easily. And Geoffrion was not quite as productive as Shutt, but I am ok with both of them being at around the bottom of the standard for retired jerseys. As for Patrick Roy, I was ambivalent. He had two superb playoff runs, but also some playoffs where he was not very good, outdueled by a Boston (88,90,91,92) or Philly (87) or Calgary (89) goalie. Still, considering that the two times he was amazing he won the Conn Smythe both times and allowed an improbable team to win the Cup, I bow to popular sentiment. And truth be told, he was truly a better puckstopper than Plante ever was, eras notwithstanding.

All in all, I think twenty jerseys retired for a team that had three dynasties and a few other Cups make sense. Let's go, Lemaire and Shutt!

 

[thom]

Lemaire had less then a pts per game as for being better d than Henri Richard that is a myth.People would say about Lemaire he would go in corner of ice with a dozen eggs and none would be cracked.Only good thing about Jacques was he was a big time player in big games-but not worthy to have number retired

 

[habsfanatics*]

Hey Whitesnake, Larry Robinson was a far, far, far, far, far better defenceman than Henri Richard was a centerman. Personally I have him as #2 of all time, but others may differ and so I will say that Robinson was somewhere between 2nd and 9th of all time, all teams. In a virtual tie with Shore, Harvey, Park, Lapointe, Savard, Potvin and Bourque. All of them more dominant than Lidstrom no matter how many Norrises the latter won, and Coffey was not good enough defensively to reach the very top.

Only Bobby Orr was clearly better than the Big Bird, or any other defenceman for that matter.

As for the rest of your post: Provost, Koivu, no way. Carbonneau neither. JC Tremblay, Tom Johnson and Mats Naslund would be ahead of all of those, and I still say no to them all.

I think nearly everyone would disagree with you.

 

[habsfanatics*]

Maybe it's because Saku wasn't all that good a hockey player and the lockerroom toward the end of his stint with the Habs was fragmented and in shambles.

Gainey, a man of tradition, and Gillette and Boivin, who loved Koivu, were rather okay with him being unceremoniously excised from the team.

Might be that you just have a fetish for retiring numbers?

I think this man on more than one occasion has proved we shouldn't rely on his expert opinion. Why would I consider his opinion regarding koivu, when he showed his incompetence after trading for Gomez. Hard to use Gainey for validation here.

Saku definitely deserves to have his number retired, he was a better player than some already lifted, but because he was surrounded with scrubs, he unfairly takes the brunt of the criticism.

 

[habsfanatics*]

Which is why I said that in the end, he could be 2nd through to 9th.

And I agree that Henri is very deservedly there for the 11 Cups, most of which he was 2nd line centerman for. Behind a legend for first line center.

My point was that if you have only six guys retired, five of whom were on the 50s dynasty, then it is really unfair to the 70s dynasty, who had more than just Lafleur in the Elite category. I used Robinson as an example, but Lapointe and Savard were also both better than Doug Harvey, or at least about equal. Lemaire had a better PPG than Richard and was better defensively, and with 8 cups deserves the honour.

Dryden won as many Cups as Plante in less time and in a much bigger league where there were more than two or three contenders per year. Gainey had no peer for the kind of player he was. Maybe Butch Bouchard, Elmer Lach and Yvan Cournoyer weren't quite at the same level as a few of the others, I'll grant you that. But they were still HOFers easily. And Geoffrion was not quite as productive as Shutt, but I am ok with both of them being at around the bottom of the standard for retired jerseys. As for Patrick Roy, I was ambivalent. He had two superb playoff runs, but also some playoffs where he was not very good, outdueled by a Boston (88,90,91,92) or Philly (87) or Calgary (89) goalie. Still, considering that the two times he was amazing he won the Conn Smythe both times and allowed an improbable team to win the Cup, I bow to popular sentiment. And truth be told, he was truly a better puckstopper than Plante ever was, eras notwithstanding.

All in all, I think twenty jerseys retired for a team that had three dynasties and a few other Cups make sense. Let's go, Lemaire and Shutt!

Wow, lmao.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

I think this man on more than one occasion has proved we shouldn't rely on his expert opinion. Why would I consider his opinion regarding koivu, when he showed his incompetence after trading for Gomez. Hard to use Gainey for validation here.

Saku definitely deserves to have his number retired, he was a better player than some already lifted, but because he was surrounded with scrubs, he unfairly takes the brunt of the criticism.

I don't trust Gainey's taste or GM knowledge whatsoever - only that he's super traditional and yet was ok giving Koivu away but not Kovalev.

Koivu was done here and his number will never be retired.

 

[thom]

Lemaire had 1 season with more than 60 assists-How anyone can say he was a superstar having number retired-I know he had other attributes and was a very good player but what would Peter Maholovich numbers been playing with Guy Lafleur-a lot higher I would say.Bowman did not like Pete and told Pollock to get rid of him.Peter was 6ft 5 and 210 p

 

[BaseballCoach]

Wow, lmao.

True. Savard and Lapointe were both much faster skaters than Harvey.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Lemaire had 1 season with more than 60 assists-How anyone can say he was a superstar having number retired-I know he had other attributes and was a very good player but what would Peter Maholovich numbers been playing with Guy Lafleur-a lot higher I would say.Bowman did not like Pete and told Pollock to get rid of him.Peter was 6ft 5 and 210 p

Mahovlich centered Lafleur from 1972-73 through part of 1976-77. By then, his drinking and arthritis did such damage to his knees that he could not keep up anymore, so he and Lemaire switched wingers. Lemaire had previously had Cournoyer and Chuck Lefley or Frank Mahovlich, the latter replaced by Murray Wilson when the Big M left.

The year that Peter Mahovlich had 82 assists, 1974-75, he played with Lafleur.