Discussion: The Guy Lapointe #5 retirement ceremony.

[thom]

Sorry about bringing Lafleur into discussion -Meant only to compare what he meant on line in terms of pts not other factors.Like I said he was very good but not elite.Never an Allstar,never won an award-will he get number retired others like Bowman say yes but for me it would be no

 

[Deebs]

Here's a link to the ceremony

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/gotta-see-it-canadiens-honour-guy-lapointe/

 

[habscup*]

Sorry about bringing Lafleur into discussion -Meant only to compare what he meant on line in terms of pts not other factors.Like I said he was very good but not elite.Never an Allstar,never won an award-will he get number retired others like Bowman say yes but for me it would be no

Being an all star or winning trophies is pretty hard when you're overshadowed by guys like Lafleur, Cournoyer, etc in your career.

 

[thom]

Hey like I said Scotty Bowman says he should be next to have his number retired

 

[habscup*]

Hey like I said Scotty Bowman says he should be next to have his number retired

Who would be your next to have his number retired?

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

Your anti Gainey agenda is tiring.

what lol

Bad case of Gainey derangement syndrome here.

Do you know Gainey's point totals?

1160gp, 501 pts

Less than 0.5ppg in a rather high-scoring era, on the most stacked team in the league. Yeah, sure, whatever.

Why not retire Carbonneau's jersey? Much weaker team, better PPG with the Habs, etc.

Again, I haven't seen him play and I won't pretend to know how "good" he was but the fat faced man retired his own jersey number and repainted his career as some sorta elite player, add in one dated quote from an old russian coach and suddenly Gainey is a legend who is beyond reproach.

Guy Lapointe deserved to have his number retired, but Patrick Roy probably didn't (historically he's an Av) and there are better players than Gainey who haven't been honoured.

 

[Deebs]

Do you know Gainey's point totals?

1160gp, 501 pts

Less than 0.5ppg in a rather high-scoring era, on the most stacked team in the league. Yeah, sure, whatever.

Why not retire Carbonneau's jersey? Much weaker team, better PPG with the Habs, etc.

Again, I haven't seen him play and I won't pretend to know how "good" he was but the fat faced man retired his own jersey number and repainted his career as some sorta elite player, add in one dated quote from an old russian coach and suddenly Gainey is a legend who is beyond reproach.

Guy Lapointe deserved to have his number retired, but Patrick Roy probably didn't (historically he's an Av) and there are better players than Gainey who haven't been honoured.

Gainey's is one of the best defensive players the league has ever seen. Do you think only offensive stats get your credit within the organization? His teammates loved him and went to war with the guy for years. He was a great leader of arguably some of the best teams ever in hockey.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

Gainey's is one of the best defensive players the league has ever seen. Do you think only offensive stats get your credit within the organization? His teammates loved him and went to war with the guy for years. He was a great leader of arguably some of the best teams ever in hockey.

... And he retired his own number. Have you ever seen that happen, anywhere?

And if it isn't only superstars, why isn't Carbo's number retired?

 

[Deebs]

... And he retired his own number. Have you ever seen that happen, anywhere?

And if it isn't only superstars, why isn't Carbo's number retired?

Give it time man. Lapointe just got his put up and Carbo will as well. It isn't a race.

 

[InglewoodJack]

Do you know Gainey's point totals?

1160gp, 501 pts

Less than 0.5ppg in a rather high-scoring era, on the most stacked team in the league. Yeah, sure, whatever.

Why not retire Carbonneau's jersey? Much weaker team, better PPG with the Habs, etc.

Again, I haven't seen him play and I won't pretend to know how "good" he was but the fat faced man retired his own jersey number and repainted his career as some sorta elite player, add in one dated quote from an old russian coach and suddenly Gainey is a legend who is beyond reproach.

Guy Lapointe deserved to have his number retired, but Patrick Roy probably didn't (historically he's an Av) and there are better players than Gainey who haven't been honoured.

You don't really know what you're talking about. First off, tossing in a jab about Gainey being a "fat faced man" is tactless. As for his actual skills, he's won 4 Selkes, the Conn Smythe, 5 cups as part of the habs and is generally regarded as one of the best defensive forwards to play the game, and probably the best defensive forward that the habs ever had. Of course he only scored at a 0.5 clip, did you see who was on some of the Habs rosters during his career? He would never have been placed in a scoring role because our top six was filled with some of the game's best natural scorers ever.

I can't believe that some posters, especially those who've been posting for years still look at point totals and call it a day.

As for Roy, he's played more seasons with the Habs, and he brought us two cups. He's also among the team's best goalies ever. I don't even like Roy that much but to disregard his legacy as an all time great is really foolish.


Also, numbers don't get retired by some executive decision. Gainey wasn't the one who decided to retire his own number, probably.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

You don't really know what you're talking about. First off, tossing in a jab about Gainey being a "fat faced man" is tactless. As for his actual skills, he's won 4 Selkes, the Conn Smythe, 5 cups as part of the habs and is generally regarded as one of the best defensive forwards to play the game, and probably the best defensive forward that the habs ever had. Of course he only scored at a 0.5 clip, did you see who was on some of the Habs rosters during his career? He would never have been placed in a scoring role because our top six was filled with some of the game's best natural scorers ever.

I can't believe that some posters, especially those who've been posting for years still look at point totals and call it a day.

As for Roy, he's played more seasons with the Habs, and he brought us two cups. He's also among the team's best goalies ever. I don't even like Roy that much but to disregard his legacy as an all time great is really foolish.


Also, numbers don't get retired by some executive decision. Gainey wasn't the one who decided to retire his own number, probably.

I'll respond in full when I can but for the time being I'll say this:

He played on a stacked team with premiere defensemen, one of the best goalies ever and a top3 all time coach. Not to mention the offensive prowess on the team.

You're giving him credit without looking at the context.

If he's so good, how come his ppg (in a higher scoring era) is around that of Brian Gionta?

Point totals don't matter all that much but when you're classifying and immortalizing the best of the very best then yes, it does matter and it matters a frigging lot.

My complaint is that we retired too many jerseys and seem arbitrary about it - and even worse fat faced, team-abandoning, Gomez-acquiring GM Bob Gainey retired his own jersey. Sure Pierre Boivin and whoever else insisted on it but it was Gainey who was in charge of Hockey Ops and he allowed it.

It's embarrassing to me.

I'm not trying today he's a bad player or even not a legendary player but that the retirement process for a team with as much history and tradition is arbitrary.

 

[InglewoodJack]

I'll respond in full when I can but for the time being I'll say this:

He played on a stacked team with premiere defensemen, one of the best goalies ever and a top3 all time coach. Not to mention the offensive prowess on the team.

You're giving him credit without looking at the context.

If he's so good, how come his ppg (in a higher scoring era) is around that of Brian Gionta?

Point totals don't matter all that much but when you're classifying and immortalizing the best of the very best then yes, it does matter and it matters a frigging lot.

My complaint is that we retired too many jerseys and seem arbitrary about it - and even worse fat faced, team-abandoning, Gomez-acquiring GM Bob Gainey retired his own jersey. Sure Pierre Boivin and whoever else insisted on it but it was Gainey who was in charge of Hockey Ops and he allowed it.

It's embarrassing to me.

I'm not trying today he's a bad player or even not a legendary player but that the retirement process for a team with as much history and tradition is arbitrary.

Enough with the fat shaming.

Seriously.

Also, stacked team or not, Gainey was sent to the hall of fame 3 years after he last played. Hockey News voted him in the 100 best players all time. Both before he was our GM, and both before he won a cup as a GM.
I think you're taking his career out of context. He wasn't a bottom six scrub; he was effectively among the best defensive forwards to ever play the game. That counts for a lot. Also, say what you will about Gainey as a GM but his reputation off the ice is impeccable. Fat chance he would retire his number as a stroke of ego. And even if he did, who cares? He more than deserves it.
He wasn't a scoring forward. Stop looking at the stat sheet.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Do you know Gainey's point totals?

1160gp, 501 pts

Less than 0.5ppg in a rather high-scoring era, on the most stacked team in the league. Yeah, sure, whatever.

Why not retire Carbonneau's jersey? Much weaker team, better PPG with the Habs, etc.

Again, I haven't seen him play and I won't pretend to know how "good" he was but the fat faced man retired his own jersey number and repainted his career as some sorta elite player, add in one dated quote from an old russian coach and suddenly Gainey is a legend who is beyond reproach.

Guy Lapointe deserved to have his number retired, but Patrick Roy probably didn't (historically he's an Av) and there are better players than Gainey who haven't been honoured.

Whiskey you have gone WAYYYY too far. First of all, it is not the GM who decides on jersey retirements. It is the Top Management, in this case Geoff Molson, advised by Serge Savard. When Gainey was GM, he specifically said he had no part in any of the retirement ceremony decisions, not just his own.

Second, Gainey was an elite player. Not an elite scorer (not that anyone playing with Doug Jarvis and one of Jimmy Roberts/Rick Chartraw/Murray Wilson/Rejean Houle could possibly have been), but an elite puck possession player as well as checker. The coach of the Soviet National team called Gainey the greatest all-around player in the world in 1976. He played a HUGE role on Team Canada that year with Darryl Sittler and Lanny McDonald. The best third line in the history of hockey.

No need to like Gainey as a GM to appreciate he was an elite hockey player, and recognized as such by his peers. And by Scotty Bowman, who put him on the ice in almost every crucial situation except the PP.

By the way, Gainey won a Conn Smythe Trophy on a team that had all these other guys whose numbers are retired. How could that be, how could he be better than every single one of those guys on the way to 16 playoff wins, without being legendary himself? Do you think it was a one-time flash in the pan? Don't make me laugh!!

 

[Burke the Legend]

Do you know Gainey's point totals?

1160gp, 501 pts

Less than 0.5ppg in a rather high-scoring era, on the most stacked team in the league. Yeah, sure, whatever.

Why not retire Carbonneau's jersey? Much weaker team, better PPG with the Habs, etc.

Again, I haven't seen him play and I won't pretend to know how "good" he was but the fat faced man retired his own jersey number and repainted his career as some sorta elite player, add in one dated quote from an old russian coach and suddenly Gainey is a legend who is beyond reproach.

Guy Lapointe deserved to have his number retired, but Patrick Roy probably didn't (historically he's an Av) and there are better players than Gainey who haven't been honoured.

The NHL made a freakin trophy for him. This is just getting stupider and stupider.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

Whiskey you have gone WAYYYY too far. First of all, it is not the GM who decides on jersey retirements. It is the Top Management, in this case Geoff Molson, advised by Serge Savard. When Gainey was GM, he specifically said he had no part in any of the retirement ceremony decisions, not just his own.

Second, Gainey was an elite player. Not an elite scorer (not that anyone playing with Doug Jarvis and one of Jimmy Roberts/Rick Chartraw/Murray Wilson/Rejean Houle could possibly have been), but an elite puck possession player as well as checker. The coach of the Soviet National team called Gainey the greatest all-around player in the world in 1976. He played a HUGE role on Team Canada that year with Darryl Sittler and Lanny McDonald. The best third line in the history of hockey.

No need to like Gainey as a GM to appreciate he was an elite hockey player, and recognized as such by his peers. And by Scotty Bowman, who put him on the ice in almost every crucial situation except the PP.

By the way, Gainey won a Conn Smythe Trophy on a team that had all these other guys whose numbers are retired. How could that be, how could he be better than every single one of those guys on the way to 16 playoff wins, without being legendary himself? Do you think it was a one-time flash in the pan? Don't make me laugh!!

That's fair, and I accept your count at full-value.

But do you, or anyone else, not see the arbitrariness of the retirement ceremony? That's all I'm saying. I'm sure I would've loved Gainey had I seen him play in person.

 

[InglewoodJack]

That's fair, and I accept your count at full-value.

But do you, or anyone else, not see the arbitrariness of the retirement ceremony? That's all I'm saying. I'm sure I would've loved Gainey had I seen him play in person.

Not really? A lot of players brought a lot of joy to the city of Montreal. If all the team offers gives up as tribute is a number out of 99, how is that not fair?

 

[BaseballCoach]

That's fair, and I accept your count at full-value.

But do you, or anyone else, not see the arbitrariness of the retirement ceremony? That's all I'm saying. I'm sure I would've loved Gainey had I seen him play in person.

I did see him play in person, and I loved that whole 75-79 team, to the core.

And yeah, I'll grant you that the process was somewhat arbitrary. They waited way too long to honour Butch Bouchard, and especially Guy Lapointe. Lapointe was every bit as good as Savard, and it was he who always had to carry the #4 or #5 defenceman as a partner, since Serge and Larry played together 85% of the time. My late father's two favourite players were Lemaire and Lapointe, and unfortunately he passed away without either of them getting a flag raised to the rafters. So I have to say it was a very emotional night for my son and I on Saturday, to be there in the Bell Center and witness an injustice corrected.

Just two more, and I will be happy. Jacques Lemaire, who would have won the Selke trophy multiple times had it existed in his day, and Steve Shutt, a remarkably prolific scorer for 9 straight years, four of them at 45 goals or more, and once hitting 60.

Yes to arbitrary, no to blaming Gainey for that. Pierre Boivin was a very stubborn man, and if he did not like someone, forget it. I don't know what Guy Lapointe ever did to him, maybe shake his hand with Vaseline on it or something. I love that Geoff Molson has taken over.

Come on Geoff (and Serge?), just two more, you can do it!

 

[Goldthorpe]

Liked the music used. First Harmonium, and then latter, the Games of Thrones theme? I loled.

 

[thom]

Steve Shutt had 1 season more than 90 pts-he finished his career with less than point per game-Another very good player but not worthy for having number retired.To this day I find it hard to believe that Lafleur had 300-400 pts more than Shutt and Lemaire.Im mean how can Lafleur be leading line in assists by a ward margin and his a RW

 

[habscup*]

Steve Shutt had 1 season more than 90 pts-he finished his career with less than point per game-Another very good player but not worthy for having number retired.To this day I find it hard to believe that Lafleur had 300-400 pts more than Shutt and Lemaire.Im mean how can Lafleur be leading line in assists by a ward margin and his a RW

That's because Lafleur was underrated, after Lemieux and Gretzky, he's the best forward since 1970 in my opinion. At least during his 7 yr peak.

 

[Hackett]

I find it hard to believe that gainey had the final say over those 100yr jersey retirements, let alone his own.

Embarrassing if true.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

I find it hard to believe that gainey had the final say over those 100yr jersey retirements, let alone his own.

Embarrassing if true.

I think he must've had a say, and it's just off-putting knowing that he was the acting GM and had his jersey hung up right there. It's just a really queer feeling and the optics of it are bad.

 

[MasterDecoy]

Any word on who would be the next to have their number retired?

markov

 

[Hackett]

markov

If subban has a long career as a hab and wins a championship, he has a chance.

Markov is hurt by his absence due to knee issues, and lack of championship.

 

[Inkling]

Toe Blake and Steve Shutt could be next in line.