Dion Phaneuf

[rdawg1234]

A few things:

1. Alot, ALOT of posters have this grass is greener menality, thinking every #1 D-man on other teams are perfect, while Phaneuf is mediocre and just constantly makes mistakes.

2. There are very few top D-men I would take over Phaneuf: Pietrangelo, Suter, Weber, Doughty(can be defensively poor tho), Chara(if he were younger), Keith. Maybe Yandle but I really havent seen him enough.

After that, i'd say the rest are either on Phaneuf's level or just below him. So basically you have 7 D-men in the league I'd take over this guy.

He's worth the 7 million, I don't know in what world that he wouldn't get at least this from a team, in UFA he'd get at least 7.5m.

 

[Mess]

The will rise significantly in the coming years and Leafs will always be a Cap team spending to the limit.

Phaneuf will be rewarded according to Leafs spending habits and organization financial means more than what he is worth comparatively around the league based on his contribution.

The market and environment in Toronto unto itself will allow Leaf players to be compensated greater then in other markets.

 

[rdawg1234]

That's not what quite what I said.



I don't have that answer. But like I said if we overpay continue to compensate Phaneuf and other leaf players like non-contending team compensate their players then we will build a wildcard playoff team with poor depth/support players.

If we compensate these players like contending playoff teams do then we are better able to compete and sign support/depth players like cup contending teams. This is type of future leafs team that Phaneuf and other leafs players need to buy into to be successful.

But he's the captain of the team and is worth 7m, I don't think I've seen any player other than J-bo take a massive paycut like that. Probably in part because St. Louis Defense is so stacked.

Plus to add to this, the cap is going to rise like crazy, so getting all uptight over a 500k raise is just silly.

 

[number72]

So far, Phaneuf has been +0 or better in 74% of games this season.

Despite falling from 0.58ppg to 0.34, has increased +/- from -4 to +9 in fewer games -- that is a spectacular defensive improvement.

The low offensive totals this season are unlucky and a statistical anomaly.

It is leaf goaltending and not better defence that lead to improved +- stats. Recall, the leafs defense has regularly been guilty of 30/40/50 shot nights. The big difference has been Reimer/Bernier and not some amazing shutdown defender who gives up too many shots on net.

Said differently, the reason Phaneuf's offense is down is that he is stuck in his own zone chasing the puck playing defense while Reimer/Bernier has been bailing out the team on defense.

 

[dubey]

Phaneuf is easily worth $7MM per year

 

[gabeliscious]

why does our D need to score? as long as their keeping the puck out of our net im happy.

for $7 million you should be able to put up ~40 points min from the backend. what defenseman makes in and around $7 million that doesnt do that?

i think that with phaneuf there needs to be a balance between the term and the dollar amount. if he absolutely needs to have a 7 year deal then the cap hit should be reduced. if he absolutely must have $7 million per year then the term should be reduced. $7 million x 7byears is just an impossible contract for phaneuf to live up to.

 

[MrLegend28*]

for $7 million you should be able to put up ~40 points min from the backend. what defenseman makes in and around $7 million that doesnt do that?

i think that with phaneuf there needs to be a balance between the term and the dollar amount. if he absolutely needs to have a 7 year deal then the cap hit should be reduced. if he absolutely must have $7 million per year then the term should be reduced. $7 million x 7byears is just an impossible contract for phaneuf to live up to.

says who? you?

 

[The Thin White Duke]

First, I think if we get a solid #2 and get a Gunnarsson-Gardiner 2nd pairing, it'll take some of the defensive pressure off Phaneuf and give him some easier offensive minutes.

Having said that, I don't see him hitting 50+ points again. I'm not saying he's as good as Stevens, but they played somewhat of a similar style. Stevens went from a reckless physical offensive defenseman putting up 70 points to a physical rock defensively putting up 20-30 points right around the age Phaneuf is now. I could see Phaneuf following the same path, maturing as a player and using his experience to be more focused defensively.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

A few things:

1. Alot, ALOT of posters have this grass is greener menality, thinking every #1 D-man on other teams are perfect, while Phaneuf is mediocre and just constantly makes mistakes.

2. There are very few top D-men I would take over Phaneuf: Pietrangelo, Suter, Weber, Doughty(can be defensively poor tho), Chara(if he were younger), Keith. Maybe Yandle but I really havent seen him enough.

After that, i'd say the rest are either on Phaneuf's level or just below him. So basically you have 7 D-men in the league I'd take over this guy.

He's worth the 7 million, I don't know in what world that he wouldn't get at least this from a team, in UFA he'd get at least 7.5m.

I'd agree for all of them outside of Keith and Yandle. Those two are just not as versatile as Phaneuf.

In Chicago's case, you need strong defensive types like Oduya, Hjalmarsson ( exclusive shut down role) and Hossa, Toews, and Sharp. Do we even have anyone up from who is as strong defensively? Bolland playing style is more agitator-based, while those three are more like a very offensive version of Kulemin. Even if their TOI is high, they'll offensive threats unlike McClement, etc.

In Phoenix, Yandle is quite sheltered with OEL and Murphy involved in the shut down role. Their forwards up front are just more consistent defensively and are willing to work as a unit. Personally, I'd rather have OEL on the team than Yandle, and I think his shut down acumen is going to be much higher than Phaneuf. He'll be one in that regard once he starts entering his prime.

As for Suter, I am not even sure. He played with Weber and never looked stable without a top flight defenceman. His partner Jonas Brodin demonstrates intelligence, elite positional game, and tempo-controlling puck moving ability that is making him look more like the next Lidstrom. In fact, controlling the tempo of the game wasn't what Lidstrom the best in the league ( Karlsson, even Rielly has that ability), it was his sheer intelligence. Actually, if we could trade Phaneuf for Jonas Brodin, I'd do it ten out of ten times.

Doughty, Weber, are more like the Phaneuf-esque types. Both have been seen making errors in a shut down role. This is the case even though their forward core is much more disciplined in controlling gaps. However, I suppose those two are superior to Phaneuf, though.

 

[LilySmoov]

That's not what quite what I said.

Well, yes it was. It was exactly what you said.

Does Phaneuf want to equally win as much as Bouwmeester and is Phaneuf willing to forgo bigger salary so the his team can sign better depth/support players? Or is Phaneuf just in it for himself, to get paid maximum and so winning comes second to his personal considerations. I don't blame Phaneuf that he wants to get paid max instead of setting up the team being in a better position to win. But this is something that Nonis needs to consider and manage with him as team captain and the team culture in general.

You question whether or not Dion has the same drive as Jay to win, implying he didn't, contrasting that desire with a primary desire to get paid. You're saying he's putting himself first and neglecting the team.

 

[member 147413]

So far, Phaneuf has been +0 or better in 74% of games this season.

Despite falling from 0.58ppg to 0.34, has increased +/- from -4 to +9 in fewer games -- that is a spectacular defensive improvement.

The low offensive totals this season are unlucky and a statistical anomaly.

The better defensive numbers this year are lucky and a statistical anomaly.
I can play the same game. Truth is, Phaneuf isn't a good enough player to be productive and defensively responsible. Anything over 6 is a ludicrous overpayment.

 

[Leafidelity]

Don't really care at all about the offensive production. He's leaps and bounds better than he's ever been at defense.

His defense is worth ~7 Million

 

[number72]

Well, yes it was. It was exactly what you said.




You question whether or not Dion has the same drive as Jay to win, implying he didn't, contrasting that desire with a primary desire to get paid. You're saying he's putting himself first and neglecting the team.

Again you are misrpresenting what I wrote. I never said pay cuts are the "truest" measure of wanting to win - that you adding a word.


Again the team has a limited cap to spend and too many inefficient Clarkson, Bozak, expensive Phaneuf etc contracts puts the team at a disadvantage relative to cup contending teams that have a superior cap flexibility.

This forces the leafs to play Fraser/Ranger and a bunch of 2 minute 4th line scrubs and inexperienced rookies. That line up will never stack up to Blues, Kings, Bruins or Hawk that more efficiently spend. However, the leafs do line up better versus the Caps, canes, senators etc.

 

[studebaker17]

But he's the captain of the team and is worth 7m, I don't think I've seen any player other than J-bo take a massive paycut like that. Probably in part because St. Louis Defense is so stacked.

Plus to add to this, the cap is going to rise like crazy, so getting all uptight over a 500k raise is just silly.

i hate these j-bo comparisons , he has never in his career been that good or as good as dp and signed for that contract because in reality that was what he should of got. now he's putting in a career year we have a bunch of geniuses comparing his salary. put dp on st louis with petro and he would undoubtedly be better than j-bo.

 

[LilySmoov]

Again you are misrpresenting what I wrote. I never said pay cuts are the "truest" measure of wanting to win - that you adding a word.


Again the team has a limited cap to spend and too many inefficient Clarkson, Bozak, expensive Phaneuf etc contracts puts the team at a disadvantage relative to cup contending teams that have a superior cap flexibility.

This forces the leafs to play Fraser/Ranger and a bunch of 2 minute 4th line scrubs and inexperienced rookies. That line up will never stack up to Blues, Kings, Bruins or Hawk that more efficiently spend. However, the leafs do line up better versus the Caps, canes, senators etc.

It isn't any measure of a player's desire to win. Wanting to get paid and wanting to win aren't mutually exclusive positions, nor do those things exist on a sliding scale respective to each other.

 

[studebaker17]

for $7 million you should be able to put up ~40 points min from the backend. what defenseman makes in and around $7 million that doesnt do that?

i think that with phaneuf there needs to be a balance between the term and the dollar amount. if he absolutely needs to have a 7 year deal then the cap hit should be reduced. if he absolutely must have $7 million per year then the term should be reduced. $7 million x 7byears is just an impossible contract for phaneuf to live up to.

you're overvaluing one aspect of the position and brushing off all the other aspects. even at a career low points total he's putting up top defensive #'s , playing against the best forwards in the league every shift and plays physical. not saying point totals aren't important but they get way to much hype around here. how many players in the league can play this way and this good ? it's a pretty short list of maybe 5 or 6 players. every other highly rated player is lacking a lot in some areas. the hole idea of sticking any old player in as a shut down guy is faulty. it takes just as good of a quality player to think defense as it does offense and is a lot harder to learn and read.

 

[studebaker17]

Again you are misrpresenting what I wrote. I never said pay cuts are the "truest" measure of wanting to win - that you adding a word.


Again the team has a limited cap to spend and too many inefficient Clarkson, Bozak, expensive Phaneuf etc contracts puts the team at a disadvantage relative to cup contending teams that have a superior cap flexibility.

This forces the leafs to play Fraser/Ranger and a bunch of 2 minute 4th line scrubs and inexperienced rookies. That line up will never stack up to Blues, Kings, Bruins or Hawk that more efficiently spend. However, the leafs do line up better versus the Caps, canes, senators etc.

the problem has always been they give to much money to free agents who never live up to nearly what was hoped for them not paying there best players who deserve to be paid. complain all you want but dion is the easily the best they have and isn't a waste of money . paying clarkson is a waste, or grabo ect. bozak is right where he should be as long as he's playing with kessel, if he gets pushed down the line up he's overpaid because his offense will really take a hit. not sure why you used those teams as examples because their being good had nothing to do with salaries but more to do with how they were built and how they stick complimentary players around their high priced talent.

 

[diceman934]

A top shutdown-D with 30 points per season is way better than a more offensive D with 50+ points and a defense that was as lacking as Phaneufs was when he came here. I'm very satisfied with his development.

He is paid for his impact on the ice as a defenseman, and that's how you need to judge him if you want to evaluate how much he is worth. Not just one part of his game, you look at the whole package.

His whole game.....is not that great this year.....on the ice for far to many PK goals.....his PP stats are horrible for all the opportunity he gets. He is on the ice for over 11 shots every 20 minutes of ice time which is among the NHL leaders. If he was paid for his impact on the ice this year.....then he owes us money!

 

[HockeyThoughts]

His whole game.....is not that great this year.....on the ice for far to many PK goals.....his PP stats are horrible for all the opportunity he gets. He is on the ice for over 11 shots every 20 minutes of ice time which is among the NHL leaders. If he was paid for his impact on the ice this year.....then he owes us money!

Do you even believe the stuff you write?

You and Interactive should start a 'irrationally obsessed with one Leaf player' fan club

 

[diceman934]

Do you even believe the stuff you write?

You and Interactive should start a 'irrationally obsessed with one Leaf player' fan club

I believe it and so do most hockey experts who actually know what they are watching.....

I posted the truth.....his PP numbers are horrible....can you dispute that?

Can you dispute that he is not on the ice for a near league leading amount of PK goals? His numbers on the PK are horrible.

He is among the leaders on allowing shots on goal as a D man as well.
His lack of points 5 on 5 is again not up to par...

All of this is true.....so yes I believe it and so should you!

You and the others who Defend him and hold him out as elite should start a club.....call it "I blindly support an over paid pylon"

 

[34]

Sign him to a contract that you would feel comfortable that another team would trade for him if you had to. Worst case scenario.

Don't sign him to a Clarkson contract which is unmoveable.

That unmovable contract would be the $7M x 7. No way that is a movable contract.

I think the best move is to trade him but if he does stay, $4M X 4 years tops.

 

[ThreeHundred]

Toronto giving him 7mill would sum up why they haven't won anything since 1967

 

[Schennanigans]

I wouldn't give him more than 5-6. But fully expect them to give him closer to 7.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

He'll get $7 million dollar here, or more elsewhere. He may not be the stereotypical leader, but he's a #1D that will be rewarded as such. He hasn't been the missing link amongst our D and his versatility is something we should retain. Instead, what limited us today is putrid display from our top line.

 

[number72]

It isn't any measure of a player's desire to win. Wanting to get paid and wanting to win aren't mutually exclusive positions, nor do those things exist on a sliding scale respective to each other.

There are players that take less money to win now. Bouwmeester was one, Iggy is another. And I'm all for paying Phaneuf a fair salary whatever that salary maybe and so long his salary is commensurate with the value he brings the team and is competitive with other stanley cup teams.

Look we can overpay Phaneuf, like Campbell is being overpaid by the Panthers and have just another wild card team. I'm not so interested in that.

Or we can pay our players a competitive salary like the stanley cup winnings team do for their players. And if Phaneuf wants to win he and his agent will not extort maximum UFA salary just because they can and just because Toronto is "rich". No, like players on other stanley cup competitive teams, they instead are able to settle on some sort of "fair" arrangement that allows Phaneuf to be generously compensated and allows the team to find and pay for support player so the team can compete more equally to stanley cup level teams.

He is among the leaders on allowing shots on goal as a D man as well.
"

That is the "red flag" of why Phaneuf is not elite. He allows too many shots and right now goaltending is bailing him out. People will have me believe that Phaneuf is an elite shutdown defenseman when him and the leaf defenders routinely give up 40 shots a night.

the problem has always been they give to much money to free agents who never live up to nearly what was hoped for them not paying there best players who deserve to be paid. complain all you want but dion is the easily the best they have and isn't a waste of money . paying clarkson is a waste, or grabo ect. bozak is right where he should be as long as he's playing with kessel, if he gets pushed down the line up he's overpaid because his offense will really take a hit. not sure why you used those teams as examples because their being good had nothing to do with salaries but more to do with how they were built and how they stick complimentary players around their high priced talent.

My point was that cup contending teams don't overpay for free agents. And that the players they resign are not extorting their teams for maximum salaries. This is the difference in Wild vs Blues. The Wild have too much money locked up in certain very talented players that they are unlikely to match the depth of other teams like the Blues or Kings anytime soon. They might take a series but there depth will not stand the test of a long playoff run