Dion Phaneuf

[crazyaces**]

Offensively he is on pace for 28 points this season - which is a career low! Defensively he's been okay, considering he's playing tough minutes. At this stage in his career it doesn't appear that he will ever hit 50-60 points and be in that 15-20 goal range ever again, which is why he was awarded a lucrative contract at $6.5M in CGY.

The way he's playing right now at best he is a $4M player. But if you want to find a comparable, you look at a player like Jay Boumeester who (after being traded there and coming off a similar $6.6M contract) re-signed in St. Louis before he hit UFA for $5.4M x 5 years.

Discuss?!

Edit: People taking issue with me calling Dion a $4M player, I wasn't suggesting that he was or is, just that with his limited offense this year, a career low he would fall into that category. $4-5M player. that being said I would re-resign Dion for about $6M and a 5-7 year - and that's is what I think he is worth ... hopefully his best is yet to come and this year his offense is just in a valley and that he can still put up 10+ goals 40ish points!


MOD Warning.
I closed a Phaneuf thread yesterday because some people couldn't discuss him without insulting other members. Critique the post and not the posters or you will be removed from this thread with infractions to follow.

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[DaveT83*]

Offensively he is on pace for 28 points this season - which is a career low! Defensively he's been okay, considering he's playing tough minutes. At this stage in his career it doesn't appear that he will ever hit 50-60 points and be in that 15-20 goal range ever again, which is why he was awarded a lucrative contract at $6.5M in CGY.

The way he's playing right now at best he is a $4M player. But if you want to find a comparable, you look at a player like Jay Boumeester who (after being traded there and coming off a similar $6.6M contract) re-signed in St. Louis before he hit UFA for $5.4M x 5 years.

Discuss?!

Uneducated Leaf Fans will look at this roster and see that Dion is head and shoulders better than anyone else on D. They will then assume that because he is the best we have he should be compensated like the BEST in league.

Anything over 6M for Dion will make him severely unattractive to other GM's that would like to trade for his services to shore up their blue-lines. This has to be the ultimate goal in leveraging him for additional assets that can help this organization moving forward.

 

[Suntouchable13]

It's going to concern me very much if Leafs give him 7+ for 7 years. Guys that don't produce offensively enough shouldn't be making that coin for that many years. You gotta admit, it's very risky giving Dion that kind of contract right now.

 

[Felstead]

Uneducated Leaf Fans will look at this roster and see that Dion is head and shoulders better than anyone else on D. They will then assume that because he is the best we have he should be compensated like the BEST in league.

Anything over 6M for Dion will make him severely unattractive to other GM's that would like to trade for his services to shore up their blue-lines. This has to be the ultimate goal in leveraging him for additional assets that can help this organization moving forward.

Doesn't matter, leafs are going to essentially pay him the 7 million he wants + term. Also it most likely comes with a NTC too so moving him really wouldn't be an option down the road.

If leafs sign him, he will be a leaf until bought out/retired/next contract(Ha)

 

[Suntouchable13]

Doesn't matter, leafs are going to essentially pay him the 7 million he wants + term. Also it most likely comes with a NTC too so moving him really wouldn't be an option down the road.

If leafs sign him, he will be a leaf until bought out/retired/next contract(Ha)

I like him, I think he is valuable but any team that signs him to such a contract will regret it quickly. 7 over 4 years is passable, but 7 per for 7 years is too much.

 

[pooleboy]

why does our D need to score? as long as their keeping the puck out of our net im happy.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Phaneuf is among the defenseman that has been on the ice for the least amount of GA despite playing tougher minutes than almost anyone in the league, and you think that is just okay?

UFA defenseman at his age able to play that kind of minutes in a shutdown role with the success he's had, and who can play in all situations are $4M players? In what world is that exactly? Even if you don't consider him having an off-year offensively and just purely look at him from the defensive side, he's a very valuable player.

Sometimes it feels like a lot of fans here think that since he isn't perfect, he isn't worth much. You don't have to be Pietrangelo to be a good, top-pairing defenseman. And if you are that and reach UFA, you'll get paid.

 

[Daisy Jane]

why does our D need to score? as long as their keeping the puck out of our net im happy.

because it's part of secondary scoring. if it doesn't come from your top two lines, it needs to come from defense & third/fourth.

 

[number72]

I never looked at his offensive game, but Phaneuf has been on a declining offensive trend since being traded to the leafs. And yet is still paid for that one outlier period on the flames before signing his contract.

Where is the talk about "entitlement", accoutantbility and the Muskoka 5 blue and white disease? Phaneuf continues to collect a pay check to fund his wardrobe and shoe selection regardless of the offensive numbers he puts up. It sure is nice to play for team like Toronto that overpays for talent (Clarkson, Bozak ...). This is the leaf team and culture management is creating.

To be fair Phaneuf's defensive game has improved but not enough to offset the massive drop in his offensive game. But no problem, this is toronto and we reward our fans with medicority while giving our players elite pay and raises even if they don't live up to their contract.


I want Phaneuf on the team but for a the right reasons and a competitive cup contending salary. And not because Phaneuf's agent extorts leaf management to overpay pay in fear of losing him. And with this massive overpayment and term which then cripples the franchise with another muskoka 5 wild card playoff team that can't compete with the cup contenders.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I never looked at his offensive game, but Phaneuf has been on a declining offensive trend since being traded to the leafs. And yet is still paid for that one outlier period on the flames before signing his contract.

Where is the talk about "entitlement", accoutantbility and the Muskoka 5 blue and white disease? Phaneuf continues to collect a pay check to fund his wardrobe and shoe selection regardless of the offensive numbers he puts up. It sure is nice to play for team like Toronto that overpays for talent (Clarkson, Bozak ...). This is the leaf team and culture management is creating.

To be fair Phaneuf's defensive game has improved but not enough to offset the massive drop in his offensive game. But no problem, this is toronto and we reward our fans with medicority while giving our players elite pay and raises even if they don't live up to their contract.


I want Phaneuf on the team but for a the right reasons and a competitive cup contending salary. And not because Phaneuf's agent extorts leaf management to overpay pay And thereby cripples the franchise with another muskoka 5 medicore wild card team.

A top shutdown-D with 30 points per season is way better than a more offensive D with 50+ points and a defense that was as lacking as Phaneufs was when he came here. I'm very satisfied with his development.

He is paid for his impact on the ice as a defenseman, and that's how you need to judge him if you want to evaluate how much he is worth. Not just one part of his game, you look at the whole package.

 

[number72]

A top shutdown-D with 30 points per season is way better than a more offensive D with 50+ points and a defense that was as lacking as Phaneufs was when he came here. I'm very satisfied with his development.

He is paid for his impact on the ice as a defenseman, and that's how you need to judge him if you want to evaluate how much he is worth. Not just one part of his game, you look at the whole package.

And back to the OP, comparing Phaneuf to Bouwmeester this year offensively and defensively at 5.4M x 5 years. That is world's different from 7 or 8M for 7 years.

 

[Felstead]

Remember too.. Phaneuf is only 28 years old.. Defensive D take a while to develop, good ones take even longer. He is only getting better and I do agree that having a top shutdown D who puts 30 points is better in my books than a 50 point D liability.

 

[Nithoniniel]

And back to the OP, comparing Phaneuf to Bouwmeester this year offensively and defensively at 5.4M x 5 years. That is world's different from 7 or 8M for 7 years.

Yeah, and Bouwmeesters contract is ridiculous and due in large to him wanting to be on a contender enough to take a pay cut.

You don't take a great forward and then say he is not worth $6M because that is bad in comparison to JVRs contract. These are outliers.

A Toronto without Phaneuf is a rebuilding team. We have absolutely no one ready to step up and take his place. Replacing him through trades would cost us a damn lot, and trying to get one in FA is just likely to get us a worse player for as much money.

 

[A1LeafNation]

Sign him to a contract that you would feel comfortable that another team would trade for him if you had to. Worst case scenario.

Don't sign him to a Clarkson contract which is unmoveable.

 

[jimmycarter]

didn't a similiar thread just get closed? this isn't gonna end well either.

is dion worth the money? maybe, maybe not.

does he have a place on this team going forward? yes

are the leafs better with him than without him? yes.

since when did money become an issue for TML?

 

[number72]

Yeah, and Bouwmeesters contract is ridiculous and due in large to him wanting to be on a contender enough to take a pay cut.

You don't take a great forward and then say he is not worth $6M because that is bad in comparison to JVRs contract. These are outliers.

There is the fundamental difference - Bouwmeester wants to win. And he is willing to take a still competitive and fair contract and forgo some bigger $$$ in the UFA market to win. And this allows the Blues use their cap space to spend better depth and become a more competitive team. This is being a team player and a leader on team.


Does Phaneuf want to equally win as much as Bouwmeester and is Phaneuf willing to forgo bigger salary so the his team can sign better depth/support players? Or is Phaneuf just in it for himself, to get paid maximum and so winning comes second to his personal considerations. I don't blame Phaneuf that he wants to get paid max instead of setting up the team being in a better position to win. But this is something that Nonis needs to consider and manage with him as team captain and the team culture in general.

 

[achtungbaby]

why does our D need to score? as long as their keeping the puck out of our net im happy.

That would be great but they're not exactly doing that either. The OP has a point, dmen who also score are the guys who make the big bucks. If Dion isn't that guy, I'd rather not pay him big money.

 

[deleteme24]

Hanta Yo!

 

[achtungbaby]

didn't a similiar thread just get closed? this isn't gonna end well either.

is dion worth the money? maybe, maybe not.

does he have a place on this team going forward? yes

are the leafs better with him than without him? yes.

since when did money become an issue for TML?

Since the salary cap was implemented. Asked and answered.

 

[hockeygeek]

I'm pro Phaneuf. I think he's one of the top #2 d-men in the league and that's pretty much where 7million will put you moving forward

 

[LilySmoov]

There is the fundamental difference - Bouwmeester wants to win. And he is willing to take a still competitive and fair contract and forgo some bigger $$$ in the UFA market to win. And this allows the Blues use their cap space to spend better depth and become a more competitive team. This is being a team player and a leader on team.


Does Phaneuf want to equally win as much as Bouwmeester and is Phaneuf willing to forgo bigger salary so the his team can sign better depth/support players? Or is Phaneuf just in it for himself, to get paid maximum and so winning comes second to his personal considerations. I don't blame Phaneuf that he wants to get paid max instead of setting up the team being in a better position to win. But this is something that Nonis needs to consider and manage with him as team captain and the team culture in general.

Yup. The truest expression of a player's desire to win is whether or not they take a paycut.

 

[Nithoniniel]

There is the fundamental difference - Bouwmeester wants to win. And he is willing to take a still competitive and fair contract and forgo some bigger $$$ in the UFA market to win. And this allows the Blues use their cap space to spend better depth and become a more competitive team. This is being a team player and a leader on team.


Does Phaneuf want to equally win as much as Bouwmeester and is Phaneuf willing to forgo bigger salary so the his team can sign better depth/support players? Or is Phaneuf just in it for himself, to get paid maximum and so winning comes second to his personal considerations. I don't blame Phaneuf that he wants to get paid max instead of setting up the team being in a better position to win. But this is something that Nonis needs to consider and manage with him as team captain and the team culture in general.

So what you mean is if Phaneuf doesn't go the J-Bo road which is really applaudable and instead does what 99% of all other players do, we shouldn't retain him?

So not only does he have to put up great defensive stats, decent offensive stats, and play an incredibly vital role for us, he also has to be one of the 1% who take the J-Bo paycut road? All so we can pay him what might be borderline #2 money for most of the contract?

 

[Durrr]

Offensively he is on pace for 28 points this season - which is a career low! Defensively he's been okay, considering he's playing tough minutes. At this stage in his career it doesn't appear that he will ever hit 50-60 points and be in that 15-20 goal range ever again, which is why he was awarded a lucrative contract at $6.5M in CGY.

The way he's playing right now at best he is a $4M player. But if you want to find a comparable, you look at a player like Jay Boumeester who (after being traded there and coming off a similar $6.6M contract) re-signed in St. Louis before he hit UFA for $5.4M x 5 years.

Discuss?!

First, JBo<<<Dion. Second, JBo took a pay cut in a year where the cap was already going down. Third, if you honestly think he's a 4 million $ player your argument lost all of its credibility. Even if Dion gets 28 points, he's playing the toughest minutes (not just on the team, almost league wide) and doing a damn good job at it.

Want a real comparison? Paul Martin signed for 5 x5 in 2010, after a 33 point season. In 2010, the cap was 59 million. His contract was roughly 8.4% of the cap in 2010. If Dion signs for EXACTLY 7 million, he will take up exactly 10% of the cap. Are you really saying Dion isn't worth 2% more of the teams cap then a player like Paul Martin?

Opinions aren't worth nearly as much as you think if you can't back it up.

 

[number72]

Yup. The truest expression of a player's desire to win is whether or not they take a paycut.

That's not what quite what I said.

So what you mean is if Phaneuf doesn't go the J-Bo road which is really applaudable and instead does what 99% of all other players do, we shouldn't retain him?

So not only does he have to put up great defensive stats, decent offensive stats, and play an incredibly vital role for us, he also has to be one of the 1% who take the J-Bo paycut road? All so we can pay him what might be borderline #2 money for most of the contract?

I don't have that answer. But like I said if we overpay continue to compensate Phaneuf and other leaf players like non-contending team compensate their players then we will build a wildcard playoff team with poor depth/support players.

If we compensate these players like contending playoff teams do then we are better able to compete and sign support/depth players like cup contending teams. This is type of future leafs team that Phaneuf and other leafs players need to buy into to be successful.

 

[TheProspector]

So far, Phaneuf has been +0 or better in 74% of games this season.

Despite falling from 0.58ppg to 0.34, has increased +/- from -4 to +9 in fewer games -- that is a spectacular defensive improvement.

The low offensive totals this season are unlucky and a statistical anomaly.