Dion Phaneuf - Will he stay or will he go?

[Kingstonian84*]

Bouwester netted a 1st round pick/2 prospects but keep in mind he had just over a year left on his contract and unlike Dion didn't have multiple year of bad term on it.

Dion won't likely fetch the returns people are thinking of- I think he gets us a 2nd rounder, a prospect, and a cap dump (to help offset his contract).

 

[Tak7]

It'll be curious to see what sort of appetite the Leafs have on salary retention with Dion.

We keep hearing / speculating that Dion is a second pairing guy being paid like a #1D. Well if that's the case, does retaining $1.5-$2million, and offering Dion at $5 million / year change his value and return? Dion at $5-$6million is 2nd pairing sort of category.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Bouwester netted a 1st round pick/2 prospects but keep in mind he had just over a year left on his contract and unlike Dion didn't have multiple year of bad term on it.

Dion won't likely fetch the returns people are thinking of- I think he gets us a 2nd rounder, a prospect, and a cap dump (to help offset his contract).

There is no way we're going to see a J-Bo-like resigning since that represents an aberration. We've already seen significantly lesser defenceman D like Coburn and what not receiving over $5 million per.

All in all, I just can't see a Phaneuf-level defenceman being far from a $7 million dollar per defenceman. Seeing that cap circumvention is no longer permitted and Kane / Toews priced >$10 million, I can see top tier UFA defenceman receiving similar numbers. In a market place where Weber is taking home $14 million, I expect Dion to look increasingly competitive.

 

[Kingstonian84*]

There is no way we're going to see a J-Bo-like resigning since that represents an aberration. We've already seen significantly lesser defenceman D like Coburn and what not receiving over $5 million per.

All in all, I just can't see a Phaneuf-level defenceman being far from a $7 million dollar per defenceman. Seeing that cap circumvention is no longer permitted and Kane / Toews priced >$10 million, I can see top tier UFA defenceman receiving similar numbers. In a market place where Weber is taking home $14 million, I expect Dion to look increasingly competitive.

Re-read my post lol, I was saying that Dion wont get nearly the return that J-Bo got actually I predict he'll get a 2nd/prospect/cap dump in return.

 

[varano]

I think the master plan is to acumulate enough 2nd/3rd rounders through the santa, franson, winnick trade so that packaging phaneuf with picks will avoid taking crap back in return.

 

[SprDaVE]

I think the master plan is to acumulate enough 2nd/3rd rounders through the santa, franson, winnick trade so that packaging phaneuf with picks will avoid taking crap back in return.

We won't have to give up our picks to trade Phaneuf. I don't know why you think so.

A cap dump to make the cap work for the other team? Sure, but it's not like we're stuck with Phaneuf at all. The interest is there.

We'll have a crap ton of cap space after we traded most of the players anyway. I'd much rather receive a cap dump or two then to trade picks away. That's counter productive to what we're going for.

 

[varano]

Dion won't likely fetch the returns people are thinking of- I think he gets us a 2nd rounder, a prospect, and a cap dump (to help offset his contract).

I think you may see something more creative like:

Phaneuf+ 2nd For Prospect+4th

 

[varano]

We won't have to give up our picks to trade Phaneuf. I don't know why you think so.

A cap dump to make the cap work for the other team? Sure, but it's not like we're stuck with Phaneuf at all. The interest is there.

We'll have a crap ton of cap space after we traded most of the players anyway. I'd much rather receive a cap dump or two then to trade picks away. That's counter productive to what we're going for.

The problem is, we still have ample "Cap dump" contracts on our team that are untradeable.

Clarkson at 5 and change, Lupul and 5 and change, Gardiner at 4 and change.

Thats already 14 million in cap space for dead weight.

I am of the other opinion that I'd rather keep Phaneuf than take back 1-2 awful contracts. Theres no value in that type of trade. Cap space is extremely valuable though.

 

[Todd Skill]

I don't know why so many people think Dion sucks and won't bring back a good return. He's a very good defenceman that is admittedly tied to a lot of money. We'll have to take a hefty contract back probably, but once that's inculded, the other team would undoubtedly add picks/players/prospects. No way the Leafs need to add higher picks to the deal.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Bouwester netted a 1st round pick/2 prospects but keep in mind he had just over a year left on his contract and unlike Dion didn't have multiple year of bad term on it.

Dion won't likely fetch the returns people are thinking of- I think he gets us a 2nd rounder, a prospect, and a cap dump (to help offset his contract).

Sadly, a lot of talk from the talking heads about the difficulties moving players with term and dollars.

Teams that are against the Cap will have difficulty accommodating Dion. Teams that are towards the bottom of the standings that are rebuilding would likely prefer a younger alternative. Ostensibly, that would add up to a smaller number of teams with interest in Phaneuf.

 

[pucky]

We lose either way. Trade him and we have a massive hole to fill on the blueline. Keep him and he continues to be a wholly inadequate team leader.

Just a no-win situation.

Stupid logic. So, what if you have a 'massive hole' there. They are (supposedly) rebuilding. The priority is to get the best return you can, back.

 

[Bullseye]

I think he'd be perfect for a team in the playoffs that need an extra vet - cap space is surely an issue -- no way Sutter takes him back in LA though - thought the Jets woulda been a place for him.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Re-read my post lol, I was saying that Dion wont get nearly the return that J-Bo got actually I predict he'll get a 2nd/prospect/cap dump in return.

Honestly, re-read my post. LOL. Phaneuf is going to get more than a second rounder, because a top pairing defenceman is going to be priced more than $7 million.

When you have marginal mid-pairing guys earning over $5 million and $12 million salaries to top players, $7 million to top pairing D isn't going to be uncommon. Watch Seabrook see a huge jump in his salary seeing that he only earned $5 million per over the last two seasons.

 

[34]

who cares what the return is. Just get him out!

Take a 7th round pick. **** it!

 

[Al14]

who cares what the return is. Just get him out!

Take a 7th round pick. **** it!

He is worth more than a 7th round pick. Come on!

Now, if you said Clarkson for a 7th round pick, I'd almost have to agree!

 

[fahad203]

He is worth more than a 7th round pick. Come on!

Now, if you said Clarkson for a 7th round pick, I'd almost have to agree!

I am willing to give all my draft picks except for first next year to get Clarkson out of here. I am not even kidding.

If we can move Bryan McCabe, we can move Dion. We are going to have to take a hit on the salary and I am ok with that

 

[General Borschevsky]

The problem is, we still have ample "Cap dump" contracts on our team that are untradeable.

Clarkson at 5 and change, Lupul and 5 and change, Gardiner at 4 and change.

Thats already 14 million in cap space for dead weight.

I am of the other opinion that I'd rather keep Phaneuf than take back 1-2 awful contracts. Theres no value in that type of trade. Cap space is extremely valuable though.

Gardiner and Lupul aren't cap dumps or dead weight. I'll give you Clarkson, obviously.

Toronto shouldn't even consider retaining salary on Phaneuf's deal, given the term, but a bad contract is a different story.

I am willing to give all my draft picks except for first next year to get Clarkson out of here. I am not even kidding.

If we can move Bryan McCabe, we can move Dion. We are going to have to take a hit on the salary and I am ok with that

But why? If you rebuild the team, you don't need the cap space. It isn't like there's any free agents or RFAs we need to sign. Why not just let Clarkson play out the string during a rebuild?

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

If he was staying he'd be playing.

 

[LaCarriere]

I don't know why so many people think Dion sucks and won't bring back a good return. He's a very good defenceman that is admittedly tied to a lot of money. We'll have to take a hefty contract back probably, but once that's inculded, the other team would undoubtedly add picks/players/prospects. No way the Leafs need to add higher picks to the deal.

You don't know why? The consensus is he's a defensive liability, tied to probably more money AAV that he deserves, for 6 more years. I think it was just before the allstar break that he had been on the ice for the second most goals against in the league, not sure where that stands now given he hasn't been playing.

If Dion's AAV was 5.5-6 he would probably look a lot more apealing to teams, hence why so many people think the Leafs will need to retain 1-2m per year to see anything of value. If he was locked up for only 2-4 more years he would be extremely tradeable, but that's not the case. It's the combination of the money and term that I think makes trading him difficult if you're looking to make a hockey trade and not just dump salary or exchange bad contracts.

If the Leafs simply wanted out of Dion's contract they could have moved him last week. Look how fast the Jets were able to ship Kane out of town. But the leafs want a big return for him, which I don't think they'll get, hence how things turned out with LA the way they did. LA wanted to swap Richards, and Toronto wanted LA to throw in a 1st and a prospect. Good luck getting a ~15th-ish pick and a prospect ontop of swapping bad contracts. Just not realistic.

 

[hoglund]

He's gone. At this point it's only a question of when, and for how much.

I guarantee that where ever he goes, the Leafs will still be paying him for many years.

 

[gabeliscious]

It'll be curious to see what sort of appetite the Leafs have on salary retention with Dion.

We keep hearing / speculating that Dion is a second pairing guy being paid like a #1D. Well if that's the case, does retaining $1.5-$2million, and offering Dion at $5 million / year change his value and return? Dion at $5-$6million is 2nd pairing sort of category.

the leafs dont have any random buyouts to my knowledge on the books. if we are trading kessel and phaneuf that is $15 million worth of cap space. it will also signal a period of rebuilding/retooling. if we had to retain ~25% of phaneufs contract ($1.75 million x 6 years) i dont think it would be as catastrophic as people make it out to be. this is of course based on the assumption that the return is based on phaneuf at $5.25 million which i would think would be quit valuable to a contending team.

 

[Faltorvo]

the leafs dont have any random buyouts to my knowledge on the books. if we are trading kessel and phaneuf that is $15 million worth of cap space. it will also signal a period of rebuilding/retooling. if we had to retain ~25% of phaneufs contract ($1.75 million x 6 years) i dont think it would be as catastrophic as people make it out to be. this is of course based on the assumption that the return is based on phaneuf at $5.25 million which i would think would be quit valuable to a contending team.

we have 1 for 3 years after this one

tim gleason

1.8m

1.3m

1,3m cap hits




if the cap goes down to 67.5m next year and you tac on the 2.03m dead cap space thanks to gleason and gunner


then we will have to try and manage with a 65m cap on the ice.

 

[Faltorvo]

You don't know why? The consensus is he's a defensive liability, tied to probably more money AAV that he deserves, for 6 more years. I think it was just before the allstar break that he had been on the ice for the second most goals against in the league, not sure where that stands now given he hasn't been playing.

If Dion's AAV was 5.5-6 he would probably look a lot more apealing to teams, hence why so many people think the Leafs will need to retain 1-2m per year to see anything of value. If he was locked up for only 2-4 more years he would be extremely tradeable, but that's not the case. It's the combination of the money and term that I think makes trading him difficult if you're looking to make a hockey trade and not just dump salary or exchange bad contracts.

If the Leafs simply wanted out of Dion's contract they could have moved him last week. Look how fast the Jets were able to ship Kane out of town. But the leafs want a big return for him, which I don't think they'll get, hence how things turned out with LA the way they did. LA wanted to swap Richards, and Toronto wanted LA to throw in a 1st and a prospect. Good luck getting a ~15th-ish pick and a prospect ontop of swapping bad contracts. Just not realistic.

never ever underestimate the market

it's impossible to know what kind of pressure an owner is putting on his GM to "just make the playoffs or swing for the cup"


IF say LA is trading a 1rst it's because the mind set is that they will indeed make it into the POs with the help of the trade.

 

[Confucius]

we have 1 for 3 years after this one

tim gleason

1.8m

1.3m

1,3m cap hits




if the cap goes down to 67.5m next year and you tac on the 2.03m dead cap space thanks to gleason and gunner


then we will have to try and manage with a 65m cap on the ice.

If we truly are dumping the core and rebuilding through the Draft, cap issues will be non existent. We may even need the retention money to hit the cap floor.

 

[Faltorvo]

If we truly are dumping the core and rebuilding through the Draft, cap issues will be non existent. We may even need the retention money to hit the cap floor.

ya know conf, i have heard this kind of tripe here for years

"we are never in cap trouble", "don't worry about the cap" yada yada

sad part is this team has been in cap hell for pretty much the entirety of it's existence and it's been proven out several times.

i can think of 1 guys that can't be moved and 2 others that we will have to take some kind of cap hit back in dion/lups

the cap has stalled it ain't going up in any amount worth noting

till the dust settles here i plan on keeping what is known and that we are in cap hell.