Did Weber signing an offer sheet have any impact on his being traded?

[Tkachuk4MVP]

Weber got walked around in the playoffs
Josi became the new D king of the hill

Montreal offered an upgrade, and they took it.

I think most players view an offer sheet as just business.

Josi didn't look much better in the playoffs, it happens to good players from time to time.

 

[Jaynki]

Before june 29th :

One trade that has been agreed one HFBoards... Weber VS Malkin...

Habs fan were offering Subban for Malkin... Subban was called a cap dump, an overpriced *******, habs needed to add galchenyuk and sergachev to Subban, and retain half of his salary, to pry malkin out of pittsburgh.

After june 29th :

Weber is an old declining, stay-at-home D, who can't skate anymore.

Subban is the most philantropic player of the NHL. A revolutionary young man. The best dman and most dynamic player in the game.

2 poids 2 mesures

 

[Osprey]

The argument that it was all about acquiring Subban and nothing else is sort of missing the point, IMO. We can all agree that they desired Subban and weren't going to trade Weber just because he signed an offer sheet, but would they have still made the trade if he hadn't signed the offer sheet and that huge contract? That's the question. I have to imagine that, if he'd never talked contract with another team, hadn't put Nashville in a tough spot and he'd signed for a slightly more reasonable amount and length, Nashville would've stuck with him, if only because suddenly trading a homegrown player and captain who'd always put the team first would've made them look really bad and felt guilty. Signing an offer sheet with another team at terms and length that were uncomfortable for Nashville, though, gave Nashville an excuse to trade him without looking bad or feeling too guilty about it.

LA would never trade Doughty. But what if Ottawa calls and offers them Karlsson? Technically - Doughty/Karlsson are "closer" in value as players than Weber/PK were, so it's not even apples to apples, but it gets my point across.

If Doughty had previously signed an offer sheet with another organization and LA hadn't gotten out of the 2nd round in all of the years that he was with the team, then I think that LA would at least consider such a swap to go in another direction (toward a more offensive team, like Nashville has done). On the flip side, if Nashville had won two Cups with Weber already, would they have just traded him? No, I imagine that they wouldn't have.

 

[nomorekids]

If you read the quotes from Poile in particular, this wasnt something that was brewing for any period of time. There wasn't another offer they were looking for. They saw Subban as a significant upgrade and a better fit for Laviolette's possession based, attacking system. They struggled with whether or not to make the trade right up until they made it. Additionally, they had already made such a huge investment in Weber with the past few years of 13M signing bonuses...I think they were past all that, it was simply a hockey trade.

 

[triggrman]

Before june 29th :

One trade that has been agreed one HFBoards... Weber VS Malkin...

Habs fan were offering Subban for Malkin... Subban was called a cap dump, an overpriced *******, habs needed to add galchenyuk and sergachev to Subban, and retain half of his salary, to pry malkin out of pittsburgh.

After june 29th :

Weber is an old declining, stay-at-home D, who can't skate anymore.

Subban is the most philantropic player of the NHL. A revolutionary young man. The best dman and most dynamic player in the game.

2 poids 2 mesures

You can keep pointing to the trade as the turning point but it wasn't, the turning point on this site for Weber was that game 7. I've posted numerous links proving this but it doesn't fit the agenda of the "hockey world is against Montreal".

 

[NotYou]

But seriously, I don't get why people are claiming Pernell is the better player right now. I mean Weber beat him out of the job in a best-on-best tournament that is currently taking place.

I think they're close enough to even that it doesn't matter who's marginally better. But this argument doesn't really make sense after a little examination. Canada wants it's d to play conservative, mistake free hockey and let their forwards and goalie dominate. They took the safer dman who fits their plan better. Doesn't mean they think he's better in a vacuum. Funny enough fit is probably who Nashville traded for subban

 

[Tkachuk4MVP]

You can keep pointing to the trade as the turning point but it wasn't, the turning point on this site for Weber was that game 7. I've posted numerous links proving this but it doesn't fit the agenda of the "hockey world is against Montreal".

Absolutely. Weber was bad most of that series, but after game 7 he was officially HF chopped liver.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

Wait, when did Shea Weber become not that good?

Over the last couple of years (not that he's "not that good", but he's certainly not the Weber of old).

 

[nomorekids]

Over the last couple of years (not that he's "not that good", but he's certainly not the Weber of old).

I don't really think that's it, because optically he's basically been the same player for most of his career. I think most of it owes to the nadir of the analytics movement. With the research and stats saying that successful teams have players that look like x and not y, Weber historically is very much a "y" player, whereas Subban is a textbook "x" player.

Weber is more physical than Subban, can "clear the crease" better, is better along the boards...but the key is philosophically, you want players that ensure you don't spend enough time in your own zone that you need someone who plays 26-27 minutes a night spending most of his effort on playing that way.

 

[JS19]

It undoubtedly made a difference. Nashville didn't want him on a contract like that.

Then why did they match the offer sheet? And why did Nashville go on the hook for the 52mil of 68mil signing bonus?

 

[MXD]

Over the last couple of years (not that he's "not that good", but he's certainly not the Weber of old).

Well, one of Subban and Weber saw a bigger drop than the other last season, compared to the prior season.

That player isn't Shea Weber.

 

[nomorekids]

Then why did they match the offer sheet? And why did Nashville go on the hook for the 52mil of 68mil signing bonus?

Because the alternative would have been devastating on and off ice?

 

[billybudd]

PK is younger, on a similar level (some would say higher) and, if I'm not mistaken, owed less total money. I don't think a lot more thought went into it than that right there.

 

[Jeremy2020]

Weber is a great player, but not as great as Subban. Subban's value to Montreal was lowed because Crazy so Nashville was able to trade a great player for an even greater player.

 

[Sureves]

The argument that it was all about acquiring Subban and nothing else is sort of missing the point, IMO. We can all agree that they desired Subban and weren't going to trade Weber just because he signed an offer sheet, but would they have still made the trade if he hadn't signed the offer sheet and that huge contract? That's the question. I have to imagine that, if he'd never talked contract with another team, hadn't put Nashville in a tough spot and he'd signed for a slightly more reasonable amount and length, Nashville would've stuck with him, if only because suddenly trading a homegrown player and captain who'd always put the team first would've made them look really bad and felt guilty. Signing an offer sheet with another team at terms and length that were uncomfortable for Nashville, though, gave Nashville an excuse to trade him without looking bad or feeling too guilty about it.



If Doughty had previously signed an offer sheet with another organization and LA hadn't gotten out of the 2nd round in all of the years that he was with the team, then I think that LA would at least consider such a swap to go in another direction (toward a more offensive team, like Nashville has done). On the flip side, if Nashville had won two Cups with Weber already, would they have just traded him? No, I imagine that they wouldn't have.

This is pretty much exactly what I am speculating in the back of my mind.

I'm just really not sure if Weber gets traded if he never signed the offer sheet. Again, I definitely don't think that was the primary reason for the trade, but I do think it played a role.

Obviously I have no facts whatsoever to support that hypothesis.

If you read the quotes from Poile in particular, this wasnt something that was brewing for any period of time. There wasn't another offer they were looking for. They saw Subban as a significant upgrade and a better fit for Laviolette's possession based, attacking system. They struggled with whether or not to make the trade right up until they made it. Additionally, they had already made such a huge investment in Weber with the past few years of 13M signing bonuses...I think they were past all that, it was simply a hockey trade.

Great post, thanks for sharing that.

 

[Sureves]

I think they're close enough to even that it doesn't matter who's marginally better. But this argument doesn't really make sense after a little examination. Canada wants it's d to play conservative, mistake free hockey and let their forwards and goalie dominate. They took the safer dman who fits their plan better. Doesn't mean they think he's better in a vacuum. Funny enough fit is probably who Nashville traded for subban

This doesn't explain why Burns is on the team though.

I don't really think that's it, because optically he's basically been the same player for most of his career. I think most of it owes to the nadir of the analytics movement. With the research and stats saying that successful teams have players that look like x and not y, Weber historically is very much a "y" player, whereas Subban is a textbook "x" player.

Weber is more physical than Subban, can "clear the crease" better, is better along the boards...but the key is philosophically, you want players that ensure you don't spend enough time in your own zone that you need someone who plays 26-27 minutes a night spending most of his effort on playing that way.

Another great post in the same thread! You're dead right that there has been a notable shift in the way people (HF?) evaluate defenseman recently, and I think the "analytics movement" is a big part of that.

I mean as recently as this time last year, > 50% of HF would have said Weber was better than Karlsson, and now just a year later I doubt it would be even 20%.

Neither Weber nor Karlsson changed that radically in that timespan: it's just the philosophy behind defenseman evaluation that has/is changed/changing.

 

[strictlyrandy]

Before the trade: Montreal is really stupid if they trade Subban.

After the trade: Montreal is really stupid for trading Subban.

That's how I feel about it. Subban has been my favorite player in the league for a long time. Montreal royally screwed the pooch. I've seen enough of Weber to know he's been declining and isn't what people on here seem to think he is. I feel bad for Montreal fans.

Subban in Nashville is going to haunt the Central. Gross.

 

[Duke Silver]

Before the trade: Montreal is really stupid if they trade Subban.

After the trade: Montreal is really stupid for trading Subban.

That's how I feel about it. Subban has been my favorite player in the league for a long time. Montreal royally screwed the pooch. I've seen enough of Weber to know he's been declining and isn't what people on here seem to think he is. I feel bad for Montreal fans.

Subban in Nashville is going to haunt the Central. Gross.

I feel like Habs fans are going to be extra vocal for the next 3 years about it being a good trade... and then time will pass and they will die down as they realize the long-term implications.

 

[strictlyrandy]

I feel like Habs fans are going to be extra vocal for the next 3 years about it being a good trade... and then time will pass and they will die down as they realize the long-term implications.

I think a lot of Habs fans still remember Weber from 2012 and 2013. Unfortunately, that's not who Shea Weber is right now. He's not an elite shut down d. He provides some really good offense, but not enough to offset his poor defense. I also think some people here are stuck in the mindset that a big physical guy is a great shut down D, that's just not the case anymore.

The poster a couple above mine nailed it. The game has changed, players in the mold of Weber are no longer effective in today's game. The way Weber has been viewed leads to the thinking that Erik Karlsson is bad defensively even though he is actually quite good.

People need to change their views on what players are now. We no longer have a few monster 100 point plus centers per season. The game is too fast for big lumbering defensemen that go for the hit and take that risk of missing. A defenseman that is sound positionally (is that even a word) and can get the puck out of the defensive zone on a good first breakout pass are more valued now.

Habs fans will love Weber this year I think. They'll love his physicality and his booming slap shot. While I do think Subban is the far better player, they really will appreciate what Weber can bring for this season. After that and the shiny new toy smell wears off, they'll start recognizing his blemishes and warts. If they don't win a Cup by the end of year two, it's gonna be a rough ride for Habs fans.

 

[Stjonnypopo]

They say it's just business but I think the Nashville brass didn't like that their hand was forced on that deal. You can't blame Weber for it either because at the time he got exactly what he wanted; he got the contract and he got to stay on the same team.

But since we're on the subject, my favourite part about the Subban/Weber trade is how quickly this board switched opinions of them. [mod] The bias around here is ridiculous.

 

[strictlyrandy]

They say it's just business but I think the Nashville brass didn't like that their hand was forced on that deal. You can't blame Weber for it either because at the time he got exactly what he wanted; he got the contract and he got to stay on the same team.

But since we're on the subject, my favourite part about the Subban/Weber trade is how quickly this board switched opinions of them. [mod] The bias around here is ridiculous.

You're casting that a little broad. A lot of people here loved P.K. before the trade (and still do).

I was a huge P.K. fan before the trade and still am. Not a huge fan of Shea Weber before the trade and still aren't.

There's plenty of people that have this same mindset. [mod]

 

[Creativero]

Cap recapture with Weber is overblown. His salary drops to 3M with 4 years remaining, and 1M with 3 years remaining. The Predators benefited from 24M in cap relief, meaning depending on when he retires it'll either be 6Mx4 years of cap or 8Mx3 years of cap.

The Predators historically haven't been a cap team. So a 6M-8M cap penalty is really only a 1M-3M if they are going to be spending 5M below the cap anyways. That hurts, but it isn't the doomsday scenario that the cap recapture is often described as. Although the salary cap isn't a given to go up as quickly in the past, it is possibly that in 7 years time the cap will have inflated at least slightly. If the cap goes up it will further lower the significance of Weber's cap recapture.

There's also the possibility that Nashville might get out of the cap recapture. If they have consistently not spent to the cap during Weber's tenure, it will probably be argued that they should be able to retroactively "pay" for the extra cap with space they didn't use during Weber's years with the team. That, and because the Weber deal wasn't their doing, the NHL might be less likely to see this as a situation worth making an example out of.

I'm pretty sure the cap recapture is purely an accounting procedure. There's no arguing.

 

[triggrman]

I think a lot of Habs fans still remember Weber from 2012 and 2013. Unfortunately, that's not who Shea Weber is right now. He's not an elite shut down d. He provides some really good offense, but not enough to offset his poor defense. I also think some people here are stuck in the mindset that a big physical guy is a great shut down D, that's just not the case anymore.

The poster a couple above mine nailed it. The game has changed, players in the mold of Weber are no longer effective in today's game. The way Weber has been viewed leads to the thinking that Erik Karlsson is bad defensively even though he is actually quite good.

People need to change their views on what players are now. We no longer have a few monster 100 point plus centers per season. The game is too fast for big lumbering defensemen that go for the hit and take that risk of missing. A defenseman that is sound positionally (is that even a word) and can get the puck out of the defensive zone on a good first breakout pass are more valued now.

Habs fans will love Weber this year I think. They'll love his physicality and his booming slap shot. While I do think Subban is the far better player, they really will appreciate what Weber can bring for this season. After that and the shiny new toy smell wears off, they'll start recognizing his blemishes and warts. If they don't win a Cup by the end of year two, it's gonna be a rough ride for Habs fans.

This misconception about Weber being slow is almost funny. He's not, I mean other than the game 7 where he was completely exhausted.

The fancy stats guys will tell you he gives up too many shots attempts against and maybe he does, but he doesn't give up a lot of scoring chances. Karlsson on the other hand is viewed as better defensively but gives up more scoring chances and way more actual goals.

 

[Jigger77]

This doesn't explain why Burns is on the team though.



Another great post in the same thread! You're dead right that there has been a notable shift in the way people (HF?) evaluate defenseman recently, and I think the "analytics movement" is a big part of that.

I mean as recently as this time last year, > 50% of HF would have said Weber was better than Karlsson, and now just a year later I doubt it would be even 20%.

Neither Weber nor Karlsson changed that radically in that timespan: it's just the philosophy behind defenseman evaluation that has/is changed/changing.

Honestly, the more I see that it is analytics based, and that most people who actually play the game and coach the game at the NHL level seem to favour Weber, I really like the trade more and more for the Habs. I just wish we could have both! It will be very interesting to see how it plays out.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Weber got walked around in the playoffs
Josi became the new D king of the hill

Montreal offered an upgrade, and they took it.

I think most players view an offer sheet as just business.

Josi got walked just as bad as Weber against SJ. Both of them are immensely overrated players.

Habs fans acting like HF decided Weber was bad as soon as he got traded to the Habs is hilarious. Those of us who regularly watch Weber in the west have known he wasn't as good as his reputation for a while.

yup, Weber sucks , hes just a mainstay on the best hockey country in the world the same team that wouldnt even let subban sit in their lockeroom

Why is Justin Abdelkader on Team USA instead of Phil Kessel? Because he's gritty and "competes" and is physical (even though Kessel just won a Cup). Why is Jack Johnson on Team USA instead of Justin Faulk? Because he's loyal to USA Hockey to a fault and they keep inviting him because of that. Why is Ryan Kesler on Team USA instead of Tyler Johnson? Because LEADERSHIP and SIZE and VETERAN!!

Shea Weber is on Team Canada over PK Subban for all those reasons combined.