Did The Leafs Mismanage Gardiner/Franson This Summer?

[Erdinger]

Something about Gardiner reminds me of Jim McKenny. Among other things, he might just need a Brian Glennie style defence partner.

He does look like he's playing drunk.

 

[Pi]

That's all nice and rosy in hindsight, but would you have signed Franson long-term after the disastrous season he had last year? Pretend you're making this decision in July instead of December.

It's easy to criticize decisions 5 months after they have been made. But put yourself in Nonis' shoes at that point of time and tell me which player you would have made a long-term offer to.

I would have signed Gardiner to the deal he has right now. I am not blaming the management, we just have really bad luck with defenseman.

Every year there is at least one defenseman on our team that absolutely sucks beyond reason but is being paid a lot.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

I think we handled the Franson and Gardiner situations perfectly.

We will hold onto the 24 year old defenseman, who showed last year that he can be dominant at this level.

We bought an extra year from a bottom-pairing d-man coming off a poor season.

Franson is having a career year now. Is he this good? Quite frankly, no. I don't think he is. We have a great opportunity to sell high on him for a very good return. Signing him long-term in the summer would have made no sense. If they want to sign him after this year, they can, but they will do it at a premium level. I don't think he can maintain this rate of play, after watching him for 4 seasons.

Everyone freaking out about Jake's contract now should at least realize that Jake this year is playing like Franson last year. The difference is, Jake is much younger, and has shown that he can play at a much higher level than this.

Don't panic. Don't sell low. Just hold your cards and wait. Making knee-jerk reactions regarding 24 year old players is foolish. Especially d-men, who typically take longer to find their game.

The team is literally doing just fine with Jake playing at his worst. There is no reason to move him at his lowest value. It's shortsighted.

 

[Purity*]

I think we handled the Franson and Gardiner situations perfectly.

We will hold onto the 24 year old defenseman, who showed last year that he can be dominant at this level.

We bought an extra year from a bottom-pairing d-man coming off a poor season.

Franson is having a career year now. Is he this good? Quite frankly, no. I don't think he is. We have a great opportunity to sell high on him for a very good return. Signing him long-term in the summer would have made no sense. If they want to sign him after this year, they can, but they will do it at a premium level. I don't think he can maintain this rate of play, after watching him for 4 seasons.

Everyone freaking out about Jake's contract now should at least realize that Jake this year is playing like Franson last year. The difference is, Jake is much younger, and has shown that he can play at a much higher level than this.

Don't panic. Don't sell low. Just hold your cards and wait. Making knee-jerk reactions regarding 24 year old players is foolish. Especially d-men, who typically take longer to find their game.

The team is literally doing just fine with Jake playing at his worst. There is no reason to move him at his lowest value. It's shortsighted.

Atleast there's some reasonable posters in this thread.

 

[RLF]

I think the reason why Kadri is never mentioned that 'he held out' (minus again interactif - ) is because Kadri didn't miss camp. Franson did, and it has been documented that missing camp can affect you for your entire year. (it didn't with Subban but i think that is very much against the normal. At the same time though, it could be seen as -well, Subban -for what he means/represents to Montreal was grossly mis-treated, turned around won the Norris, and pretty much helped Montreal get to game 6 of the ECF). Cody Franson held out, and played horribly).

If it sounds like I am totally blaming Franson, then I am sorry, that was not my intention. However, I do think it was not in his best interest to not take the lower two year deal. I would have taken it, not missed camp, and proven that the shortened season was not a fluke, and I was worth investing in two years time (which would have been this year). that's all I mean. For me personally, (and I say this as someone who legitimately likes Cody Franson) his play last year scares me, because in my head I don't know what that translates to. Was that just a fluke "bad year" was it really just "injuries and missing camp?" or is the mean average of Cody Franson's play that of a mixture of last year and this. ie: is he playing his guts out for a contract. (which most people tend to do)

As I remember it (and since it's two years ago, I could be wrong this is how it went.
Both Nazzy and Cody rejected their offers. (but to keep this on Cody, we'll talk just about what happened to him, I finally found the thread that talked about it in 2013)

Alrighty. in 2013, Cody rejected the qualifying offer (which we don't know what it was), and wanted a long term contract with 4 million dollars at the base. the Leafs countered with a bridge deal (which would have ended this year), for under 3 million, to which i said, why not meet in the middle and have 1 higher year and one lower deal that is closer to 3 million than to 4 but Cody could have that security and hit UFA anyway.

(he also did not choose to file for Arbitration in 2013).

this is the tweet



then i remember that they were trying to get Cody signed first, and they offered 2 years at a higher number, to which then Cody countered with 1year 4 million (so he could have his arbitration rights, then the Leafs signed Nazzy, and Raymond, camp started, and Cody signed for what he signed with by the end of camp.


I will maintain had Cody signed first, he'd probably have Raymond's money added to his contract, Nazzy would have had the left over, and there wouldn't have been any 'real' commitment to Raymond (because he was only on a PTO). Franson's decisions in that regard, cost him a year (to prove himself), and that extra bit of money (to hold on to arbitration rights, which he didn't accept again this off season).

I don't blame management for trying to move him to "try to make the team better" (though Gorges. Really?). in trying to trade him, though I do think it must be frustrating that Nonis (particularly) makes dumb dumb decisions money related, and it usually impacts how Cody is treated anyway. However, something that could be considered is that Shanahan stated that he sees the future blueline being patrolled by Rielly and Franson. So we know Shanahan has Franson's back. (how that translates, I don't know).

with regards to Jake.... like i said, it is tricky, he suffered his concussion and struggled #freegardiner (crap), but when he came back and started to get on a roll, he + Cody were both amazing in the playoffs

For me - i saw Jake's play pick up after the Winter Classic and he was steady and really took off during the hot streak in January-olympic break, and then of course the last stretch he looked the best when everyone else looked like crap. (I won't take that away from him either, I personally feel he stepped up. now. you can counter did he step up, or was everyone else just not performing to their best. THAT I can't answer - but I do think his play last season was more than "20 games of being good.").

as it is being boiled down to now - the Leafs really want to keep Franson, and are trying to trade Jake. (in case Franson leaves -hence why they are targeting Yandle). Again, I don't know if i'd give Franson ALL THE MONEY because I don't know how it will work out next year for him (esp. in this market).


here is the thread for reference. (I was totally team Let's Get Cody Signed, until he wanted 1 year 4 million i believe )

All good points and I don't really disagree with much. The arbitration I was referring to was this summer, Cody did file for arbitration this past summer IIRC.
The year he missed camp, the two years under $2mil I referred to was apparently the offer after Kadri signed and as I mentioned, they caved and gave Kadri $2.9 per for two years when originally only wanted to give two years around $2.3 to him(I heard). They would not cave on Franson or show commitment...and never have is the point I was trying to make.

As for Jake, I meant 20 games stretches per season(worded poorly). I honestly don't remember him being that good prior to the final 20 or so games last season, although I do think he improved as the season went on and most were excited to see him look at the end of the season like he did in the prior playoffs. I just don't think he had even shown to be any more consistent than Franson and Franson brings things Gardiner cannot and never will.

For the record, I don't think Franson is worth $5.5-$6mil either, but I still think they mismanaged the situation with Cody, not as much both players. When Gunnar was signed, I'm pretty sure we could have gotten Cody on a similar contract as well. When they signed Jake, we could have gotten Cody on a similar contract to that then I would also imagine. Now it will cost much more...sounds mismanaged to me. NO different than if they gave Jake two years low money and he performed great...many would say we mismanaged him and should have given hi the type of deal he has now...which may be a fair statement.

I do find it funny though how Jake is still considered room to grow and is capable of being "dominant" by some but Franson cannot possibly sustain this type of play. Cody has a more compatible partner now and the only real changes to his game is that he has simplified it a bit. He takes less chances with and without the puck...that's the only major changes to his game from last year. Yet somehow, that has less chance of sustaining than Gardiner becoming dominant, learning to play D and become more physical which will allow him to become all of these things he is apparently capable of in order to earn HIS contract. I'd say Cody has earned every contract he has gotten and out-performed his contract every season. Even last year $2mil was not horrible money for a guy who leads your D again in points and hits.

 

[RLF]

I think we handled the Franson and Gardiner situations perfectly.

We will hold onto the 24 year old defenseman, who showed last year that he can be dominant at this level.

We bought an extra year from a bottom-pairing d-man coming off a poor season.

Franson is having a career year now. Is he this good? Quite frankly, no. I don't think he is. We have a great opportunity to sell high on him for a very good return. Signing him long-term in the summer would have made no sense. If they want to sign him after this year, they can, but they will do it at a premium level. I don't think he can maintain this rate of play, after watching him for 4 seasons.

Everyone freaking out about Jake's contract now should at least realize that Jake this year is playing like Franson last year. The difference is, Jake is much younger, and has shown that he can play at a much higher level than this.

Don't panic. Don't sell low. Just hold your cards and wait. Making knee-jerk reactions regarding 24 year old players is foolish. Especially d-men, who typically take longer to find their game.

The team is literally doing just fine with Jake playing at his worst. There is no reason to move him at his lowest value. It's shortsighted.

Did you feel the same way last year when Franson was only 26 and had a great prior season? OR did you want to run him out of town? Did you want to give him a Jake contract when he was 25 after the shortened season where he was great? Franson lead this d-core in points as a 25 and 26 year old, but he hadn't shown any potential? Also lead the d-core in hits last season. How many point producing d-men also lead in hits?
Seems kind of double standard just because a guy(Gardiner) is an excellent skater(which he rarely uses anymore and never has consistently). In some other areas, Jake cannot compete with Cody (size, physicality, vision, passing, ability to quarterback a PP), but somehow all of that is overlooked because of Jakes so called much younger age and "potential".

 

[Daisy Jane]

RLF - that is true. I think Nonis doesn't like Cody (for whatever reason), and it will cost us. either in losing Franson, or having to overpay when we didn't have to. that i will agree on regardless of how the past worked out.

I do think Nonis has soft spot for both Nazem & Jake which is why he capitulated on both of them. (Nazzy is paying off - Jake is looking pretty eehhhhish). but i think again the fact that Dubas + Shanahan speak highly of Franson (and we know that is where the future is going to trend) could pay off for both Leafs + Franny.

I hope so (yes. I've been all about TRADE FRANSON - but again: maximise his returns). but. we'll have to see what happens.

 

[RLF]

RLF - that is true. I think Nonis doesn't like Cody (for whatever reason), and it will cost us. either in losing Franson, or having to overpay when we didn't have to. that i will agree on regardless of how the past worked out.

I do think Nonis has soft spot for both Nazem & Jake which is why he capitulated on both of them. (Nazzy is paying off - Jake is looking pretty eehhhhish). but i think again the fact that Dubas + Shanahan speak highly of Franson (and we know that is where the future is going to trend) could pay off for both Leafs + Franny.

I hope so (yes. I've been all about TRADE FRANSON - but again: maximise his returns). but. we'll have to see what happens.

And unfortunately you may be right and the best option will be to trade him...and hope Jake can turn into something that is not MDZ.

 

[Daisy Jane]

And unfortunately you may be right and the best option will be to trade him...and hope Jake can turn into something that is not MDZ.

I don't care if Jake turns in MDZ - because by that point we would have traded him for Yandle

 

[realgoodleafs]

It's too bad really. We could have probably traded Gardiner for a 2nd round pick last year like we got for Stralman.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Did you feel the same way last year when Franson was only 26 and had a great prior season? OR did you want to run him out of town?

Franson didn't have a great prior season. His point totals were great. He's a terrific offensive defenseman, but he's very poor in his own zone. That's been the knock on him throughout his career.

Did you want to give him a Jake contract when he was 25 after the shortened season where he was great?

No I didn't. He didn't have as impressive a season as Jake did last year at 23. I expect more from a 25 year old. He had a strong offensive season playing sheltered minutes. Not worth a long-term extension.

Franson lead this d-core in points as a 25 and 26 year old, but he hadn't shown any potential? Also lead the d-core in hits last season. How many point producing d-men also lead in hits?

I never said he hadn't shown any potential. But he's 27 now. This is likely the peak of his development. Given his size and foot speed, I wouldn't want to lock into him long-term. He was also our worst defensive dman last season, despite his hit totals (which mean nothing).

Seems kind of double standard just because a guy(Gardiner) is an excellent skater(which he rarely uses anymore and never has consistently).

Yes, Gardiner's time as a great skater is clearly nearing its end.

In some other areas, Jake cannot compete with Cody (size, physicality, vision, passing, ability to quarterback a PP), but somehow all of that is overlooked because of Jakes so called much younger age and "potential".

See bolded for individual responses to your points.

Jake's a better overall defenseman. If you want to isolate this last 30 games, obviously Franson has been better. That isn't saying much, since Jake is having the worst struggles of his career.

Wait it out.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

It's too bad really. We could have probably traded Gardiner for a 2nd round pick last year like we got for Stralman.

This is the best post of this thread.

 

[RLF]

See bolded for individual responses to your points.

Jake's a better overall defenseman. If you want to isolate this last 30 games, obviously Franson has been better. That isn't saying much, since Jake is having the worst struggles of his career.

Wait it out.

Bolded.That's where we disagree ands most stats would back me up.
Franson is also better defensively than you are implying, but him and Jake were a disaster waiting to happen defensively as a pair. I doubt anyone would say Jake is strong defensively or even close to it either and he doesn't out-produce Franson, but is a better overall defenceman? ok.

 

[DD03]

See bolded for individual responses to your points.

Jake's a better overall defenseman. If you want to isolate this last 30 games, obviously Franson has been better. That isn't saying much, since Jake is having the worst struggles of his career.

Wait it out.

Jake is no where close to the defenseman Franson is. Can't believe you just said that.

People need to remember Franson played all of last season with a lingering hip injury and was still one of our better offensive defense men. He made mistakes but he takes less chances this year with a proper break out system involved and being healthy.

 

[HockeyCA]

I think we handled the Franson and Gardiner situations perfectly.

We will hold onto the 24 year old defenseman, who showed last year that he can be dominant at this level.

We bought an extra year from a bottom-pairing d-man coming off a poor season.

Franson is having a career year now. Is he this good? Quite frankly, no. I don't think he is. We have a great opportunity to sell high on him for a very good return. Signing him long-term in the summer would have made no sense. If they want to sign him after this year, they can, but they will do it at a premium level. I don't think he can maintain this rate of play, after watching him for 4 seasons.

Everyone freaking out about Jake's contract now should at least realize that Jake this year is playing like Franson last year. The difference is, Jake is much younger, and has shown that he can play at a much higher level than this.

Don't panic. Don't sell low. Just hold your cards and wait. Making knee-jerk reactions regarding 24 year old players is foolish. Especially d-men, who typically take longer to find their game.

The team is literally doing just fine with Jake playing at his worst. There is no reason to move him at his lowest value. It's shortsighted.

Is Gardner going to start playing more physical and making better defensive reads? I mean, the odd rush down the ice is nice every now and then, but I am finding it harder to justify the type of money he is being paid for effectively a liability on the ice every single night. He looks like a player who had already secured a 4 million dollar a year contract to me, which is not a good sign.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Bolded.That's where we disagree ands most stats would back me up.
Franson is also better defensively than you are implying, but him and Jake were a disaster waiting to happen defensively as a pair. I doubt anyone would say Jake is strong defensively or even close to it either and he doesn't out-produce Franson, but is a better overall defenceman? ok.

What stats back you up? Jake had almost equal the points, and double the goals, despite getting much less PP time last season, and was much better defensively. Jake was also the best possession defender on the team.

Franson threw more hits, and was -20.

The worst part is that they were paired TOGETHER for most of the year. One would think that their stats would be similar, but Jake destroyed Franson.

The main difference this year is that Franson plays with Phaneuf who is a top level dman. Gardiner is with Polak, Holzer, Rielly, etc.

Last season, Gardiner was better offensively and defensively.

 

[hullsy47]

RLF - that is true. I think Nonis doesn't like Cody (for whatever reason), and it will cost us. either in losing Franson, or having to overpay when we didn't have to. that i will agree on regardless of how the past worked out.

I do think Nonis has soft spot for both Nazem & Jake which is why he capitulated on both of them. (Nazzy is paying off - Jake is looking pretty eehhhhish). but i think again the fact that Dubas + Shanahan speak highly of Franson (and we know that is where the future is going to trend) could pay off for both Leafs + Franny.

I hope so (yes. I've been all about TRADE FRANSON - but again: maximise his returns). but. we'll have to see what happens.

jake gardiner ,clarkson ,phaneuf and kessel are your core players .,enuff said .
other than kessel ,the rest of these non tradable contracts make nonis look lke gord stellick

 

[RLF]

What stats back you up? Jake had almost equal the points, and double the goals, despite getting much less PP time last season, and was much better defensively. Jake was also the best possession defender on the team.

Franson threw more hits, and was -20.

The worst part is that they were paired TOGETHER for most of the year. One would think that their stats would be similar, but Jake destroyed Franson.

The main difference this year is that Franson plays with Phaneuf who is a top level dman. Gardiner is with Polak, Holzer, Rielly, etc.

Last season, Gardiner was better offensively and defensively.

Bolded...and this year Gardiner is a -11 in only 30 games without playing with the anchor that you claim Franson was.

Yes, if you make it all about last season only, Jake was the better defenceman...but somehow still didn't out point Franson(yet better offensively?). I am referring to their whole NHL careers though. You argue this year is not enough to judge Jake, but only point out how Franson was poor last season to show Jake is better.

You say Franson is horrible defensively and Gardiner is better...than shouldn't he look better defensively with the likes of Polak, Holzer and Rielly than he did with Franson, just like Franson is better defensively with a better defensive partner in Phaneuf? Yet Jake is a -11, a healthy scratch 3 times and has looked horrible in his own end this season. Ever think Franson tried to be the defensively responsible partner last season, which is not his strength, in order to allow Jake to play his rover style? Made Jake look good, made Franson look like crap as he could not play to his strengths as he was trying to be the Fraser of the pair.

Funny Jake's best year was with Franson and Franson's worst was with Jake...otherwise Franson has been very solid and Jake has struggled.

Stats wise for their whole time in Toronto(not just one season)...Franson is way better than Jake.

BTW...Who is playing the toughest minutes this season and who is getting the sheltered minutes?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

What stats back you up? Jake had almost equal the points, and double the goals, despite getting much less PP time last season, and was much better defensively. Jake was also the best possession defender on the team.

Franson threw more hits, and was -20.

The worst part is that they were paired TOGETHER for most of the year. One would think that their stats would be similar, but Jake destroyed Franson.

The main difference this year is that Franson plays with Phaneuf who is a top level dman. Gardiner is with Polak, Holzer, Rielly, etc.

Last season, Gardiner was better offensively and defensively.

Why are you talking about last season, and I assume the short span Gardiner was our best D man when all of our D was bad. It's dubious being the best of anything when no one is good at that time. Gardiner is awful, he was prematurely rewarded with a long term contract and he has never shown the consistency over a large sample of games to be called our best defenceman. You cannot teach Hockey IQ, defensively or offensively. This is jake's struggle since he came in this league. If we can get anything for him, it's best to move him. His erratic play is symbolic of this era's Leafs. He's not a very good player.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Bolded...and this year Gardiner is a -11 in only 30 games without playing with the anchor that you claim Franson was.

Yes, if you make it all about last season only, Jake was the better defenceman...but somehow still didn't out point Franson(yet better offensively?). I am referring to their whole NHL careers though. You argue this year is not enough to judge Jake, but only point out how Franson was poor last season to show Jake is better.

You say Franson is horrible defensively and Gardiner is better...than shouldn't he look better defensively with the likes of Polak, Holzer and Rielly than he did with Franson, just like Franson is better defensively with a better defensive partner in Phaneuf? Yet Jake is a -11, a healthy scratch 3 times and has looked horrible in his own end this season. Ever think Franson tried to be the defensively responsible partner last season, which is not his strength, in order to allow Jake to play his rover style? Made Jake look good, made Franson look like crap as he could not play to his strengths as he was trying to be the Fraser of the pair.

Funny Jake's best year was with Franson and Franson's worst was with Jake...otherwise Franson has been very solid and Jake has struggled.

Stats wise for their whole time in Toronto(not just one season)...Franson is way better than Jake.

BTW...Who is playing the toughest minutes this season and who is getting the sheltered minutes?

You admit that Jake was better last season. I admitted that Franson has definitely been better this season. Last year, Franson didn't make up for Jake's defensive mistakes. Jake was the best possession defender on the team by a wide margin. He saved Franson from having an even worse season.

Over their careers it's tough to say who has been better. Franson has played 3 additional seasons, but has failed to cement himself as anything more than a bottom pairing defenseman with strong offensive skills.

I see more potential than that in Gardiner. But management had to make a call in the offseason. They invested in Jake, and didn't invest in Franson. You can take 30 games as gospel and assume that the next 4 years are going to be similar, but that would be shortsighted.

Fact is, there is plenty of time left to evaluate these two players. With our "worst defensive dman" Gardiner in the press box, we played one of our worst games of the entire season.

Ultimately, my point is that I think the Gardiner contract was a great move that will pay off long-term. Making a knee jerk reaction move this early would be a mistake.

 

[King85Kong]

In all fairness, Gardiner has had to play with our 1st line ES a lot this season. That would hurt anyone's numbers. The guy is having a slow start, but he will turn it around. He needs to go back to playing his game and skating with the puck. Franson is having his first solid season at 27. Lots of time for Gardiner.

 

[RLF]

In all fairness, Gardiner has had to play with our 1st line ES a lot this season. That would hurt anyone's numbers. The guy is having a slow start, but he will turn it around. He needs to go back to playing his game and skating with the puck. Franson is having his first solid season at 27. Lots of time for Gardiner.

I don't know why people keep saying that...besides last season, when wasn't he solid?

 

[King85Kong]

I don't know why people keep saying that...besides last season, when wasn't he solid?

I would be hard pressed to find a season of his that matches what he has done so far this year.

 

[RLF]

You admit that Jake was better last season. I admitted that Franson has definitely been better this season. Last year, Franson didn't make up for Jake's defensive mistakes. Jake was the best possession defender on the team by a wide margin. He saved Franson from having an even worse season.

Over their careers it's tough to say who has been better. Franson has played 3 additional seasons, but has failed to cement himself as anything more than a bottom pairing defenseman with strong offensive skills.

I see more potential than that in Gardiner. But management had to make a call in the offseason. They invested in Jake, and didn't invest in Franson. You can take 30 games as gospel and assume that the next 4 years are going to be similar, but that would be shortsighted.

Fact is, there is plenty of time left to evaluate these two players. With our "worst defensive dman" Gardiner in the press box, we played one of our worst games of the entire season.

Ultimately, my point is that I think the Gardiner contract was a great move that will pay off long-term. Making a knee jerk reaction move this early would be a mistake.

Franson is in his 6th NHL season and Jake his 4th, so yes Franson has had more experience and I agree, has more potential because of skating ability, but I will take the guy who works hard to improve and exceeds expectations over the "potential" guy anyday. But that's me and I can see why Jake has his supporters, I just don't see the desire or commitment to get better from him. He is soft as well and I don't see it changing.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Franson is in his 6th NHL season and Jake his 4th, so yes Franson has had more experience and I agree, has more potential because of skating ability, but I will take the guy who works hard to improve and exceeds expectations over the "potential" guy anyday. But that's me and I can see why Jake has his supporters, I just don't see the desire or commitment to get better from him. He is soft as well and I don't see it changing.

The thing is, would you have said this in the summer? That's when the decision was made.

Jake was coming off his best season. Franson was coming off arguably his worst season.

I think Jake will end up being the better dman of the two. I think Franson is benefitting from playing with Phaneuf, who is a top level defender, and his numbers are inflated this season.

Maybe I'm wrong and he's turning the corner. Either way, he's at his max value right now, so I think dealing him would probably be the best move from an asset management point of view.

With that said, we can also hold onto him and see how the whole season plays out. We can always keep him next summer if he's the real deal. And we'll always be able to move Jake after the season, if that ends up being the right direction for the team.

Either way, I think this situation was managed perfectly this summer.