Did Mario hold back the Pens?

[ObsessedCreative*]

The biggest thing that held the penguins back from 2010 on was Dan Bylsma. Period, end of discussion.

 

[iFishyHD]

At the beginning of the offseason wasn't Mario consistently using words like, speed, grit, and character constantly? I don't think he doesn't like grit and toughness, sounds like a problem with goons (John Scott) which we don't need anyway.

I have no doubt in my mind Mario tries to do what he thinks what is right with the team.

 

[Corvidae]

The only thing Lemieux did wrong was NOT meddal with the GM and let Shero Scuderi up the team. He also should have fired him last August.

 

[Bumpus]

Look, I know it's beyond sacrilegious to question #66 around here, but just hear me out for a second...

 

[Darth Vitale]

Honestly guys I don't understand the point of this thread or where it's going.

We will never truly know the degree to which Mario had control / final say over roster moves, therefore we can never truly know if he's ultimately responsible for icing the type of soft teams we had, or for letting Bylsma continually make the same mistakes over and over for three straight seasons (basically).

Virtually everything we say about Mario is going to be based on guesswork, other than the comments that are public knowledge (and those comments are not enough to draw a concrete conlusion). And in any case, the Bylsma-Shero era is over, and more important for this debate, the team has taken very drastic steps this summer to un-pans-ify this team (Downie, Carbomb, etc) so the problem has been addressed.

Ultimately all this debate about team softness (which is now older than dirt) amounts to crying over spilled milk and retorts about Mario saved us from being relocated (which is true). Even if we all agreed it's Mario's fault, then what? Does anyone really think Mario is going somewhere or that he will change his stripes or thinking on how hockey should be played?

Really tempted to close this because I don't know what good can come from it; we're not even in the midst of the problem being discussed anymore. The problem has been solved, so why sweat it? Better to talk about training camp or whatever. Move on?

 

[Klifton]

Honestly guys I don't understand the point of this thread or where it's going.

We will never truly know the degree to which Mario had control / final say over roster moves, therefore we can never truly know if he's ultimately responsible for icing the type of soft teams we had, or for letting Bylsma continually make the same mistakes over and over for three straight seasons (basically).

Virtually everything we say about Mario is going to be based on guesswork, other than the comments that are public knowledge (and those comments are not enough to draw a concrete conlusion). And in any case, the Bylsma-Shero era is over, and more important for this debate, the team has taken very drastic steps this summer to un-pans-ify this team (Downie, Carbomb, etc) so the problem has been addressed.

Ultimately all this debate about team softness (which is now older than dirt) amounts to crying over spilled milk and retorts about Mario saved us from being relocated (which is true). Even if we all agreed it's Mario's fault, then what? Does anyone really think Mario is going somewhere or that he will change his stripes or thinking on how hockey should be played?

Really tempted to close this because I don't know what good can come from it; we're not even in the midst of the problem being discussed anymore. The problem has been solved, so why sweat it? Better to talk about training camp or whatever. Move on?

I have to agree, might as well shut this one down.

 

[cassius]

We will never truly know the degree to which Mario had control / final say over roster moves, therefore we can never truly know if he's ultimately responsible for icing the type of soft teams we had, or for letting Bylsma continually make the same mistakes over and over for three straight seasons (basically).

Virtually everything we say about Mario is going to be based on guesswork, other than the comments that are public knowledge (and those comments are not enough to draw a concrete conlusion). And in any case, the Bylsma-Shero era is over, and more important for this debate, the team has taken very drastic steps this summer to un-pans-ify this team (Downie, Carbomb, etc) so the problem has been addressed.
?

I think a lot of stuff on this site is based on guesswork. My point of the thread was to sorta highlight that a lot of these personnel moves were possibly driven from the owners's suite, not so much directly from Shero.

Basically, I am not saying that Lemieux is a meddler quite to the degree of a Jerry Jones, but I do think his preferences towards taking violence out of the game had a trickle down effect on this roster. If you look at how drastically the roster changed from 2011 -> 2013, it seems to fit..

 

[Ogrezilla]

I think a lot of stuff on this site is based on guesswork. My point of the thread was to sorta highlight that a lot of these personnel moves were possibly driven from the owners's suite, not so much directly from Shero.

Basically, I am not saying that Lemieux is a meddler quite to the level of Jerry Jones, but I do think his preferences towards taking violence out of the game had a trickle down effect.. and if you look at how drastically the roster changed from 2011 -> 2013, that theory sorta seems to make sense.

the only real change after 2011 to 2012 was letting Goddard go. The more drastic changes to how we played happened after the **** show in Philly. And I would argue that the mentality of the team had a far bigger impact on our toughness than the actual roster changes.

 

[mpp9]

the only real change after 2011 to 2012 was letting Goddard go. The more drastic changes to how we played happened after the **** show in Philly. And I would argue that the mentality of the team had a far bigger impact on our toughness than the actual roster changes.

Na we let Talbot and Rupp go after 2011. We started down that path in terms of personnel then. The Philly series was the mental collapse side of it. Its equal parts, which is why Shero and DB share the blame.

 

[Ogrezilla]

If Disco had let Vitale play, he could have replaced Talbot just fine. And Rupp got overpaid, and wasn't really overly tough despite being big anyway.

 

[mpp9]

If Disco had let Vitale play, he could have replaced Talbot just fine. And Rupp got overpaid, and wasn't really overly tough despite being big anyway.

Vitale isnt playoffs Talbot. Rupp was excellent for us in the 2011 playoffs. That was the last time our 4th line was any good.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Vitale isnt playoffs Talbot. Rupp was excellent for us in the 2011 playoffs. That was the last time our 4th line was any good.

That's because they were better players, not because they were tough.

 

[mpp9]

That's because they were better players, not because they were tough.

Effectiveness is sort of required. Talbot had character and stepped up for the team. Rupp's hits were more impactful on the outcome of a game than all of Glass' in his Pens career.

 

[Your Boy Troy]

The problem that I had with Shero was not him letting Michael Rupp sign a multi-year contract with the Rangers. My issue was him not acquiring a player that fills a similar role. He basically stated that off-season "screw it, we will sign Richard Park, problem solved". I thought that Richard Park was decent, but he didn't really fill a need for the team.

 

[billybudd]

The problem that I had with Shero was not him letting Michael Rupp sign a multi-year contract with the Rangers. My issue was him not acquiring a player that fills a similar role. He basically stated that off-season "screw it, we will sign Richard Park, problem solved". I thought that Richard Park was decent, but he didn't really fill a need for the team.

Right. Park was an okay player, but we needed a guy in his roster spot to be trash talking and hammering guys on the forecheck. That ain't Park.

 

[Til the End of Time]

for an owner that is supposed to be "hands off", lemieux sure seems to be in the lockerroom during the playoffs quite a bit.

he was in the lockerroom in game 7 against detroit in the second intermission, he was also in the lockerroom consoling fleury in the nyi series.

great player, but mario has always been a whiner, so those comments after the isles series aren't surprising.

he clearly has very strong opinions about how nhl hockey should be played. this is a guy who retired in part because he didn't like how refs were calling penalties. thats pretty extreme. i wouldnt be surprised if he demanded his gm make certain moves.

 

[Shady Machine]

Effectiveness is sort of required. Talbot had character and stepped up for the team. Rupp's hits were more impactful on the outcome of a game than all of Glass' in his Pens career.

Now you are arguing something entirely different than Mario making us intentionally soft.

 

[Shady Machine]

for an owner that is supposed to be "hands off", lemieux sure seems to be in the lockerroom during the playoffs quite a bit.

he was in the lockerroom in game 7 against detroit in the second intermission, he was also in the lockerroom consoling fleury in the nyi series.

great player, but mario has always been a whiner, so those comments after the isles series aren't surprising.

he clearly has very strong opinions about how nhl hockey should be played. this is a guy who retired in part because he didn't like how refs were calling penalties. thats pretty extreme. i wouldnt be surprised if he demanded his gm make certain moves.

ugh. What's your thing against Mario? It seems like you only care about Sid.

 

[DearDiary]

There was actually a large thread on the main board about Mario's negative effect on the Pens. Maybe someone can search it up? I recall some evidence being mentioned

 

[Til the End of Time]

ugh. What's your thing against Mario? It seems like you only care about Sid.

i dont have anything against him.

i think he did alot of amazing things but also some questionable things. the whole dan quinn affair, lack of dedication to the game early in his career, keeping bowman out of practices, promoting the country club in the 90s, retiring partially because he didnt like how the refs were calling the game and then also suddenly retiring with some sort of mysterious heart condition that was never heard about again when the team sucked. i also dont like his political views. it also annoys me when pens fans say lemieux>gretkzy, when there isnt a single metric where that is true.

he got the pens two cups but i also think hes the reason why they didnt get more. he was meddling and overstepped his bounds as a player, so i also think he might be a meddling owner.

 

[Shady Machine]

i dont have anything against him.

i think he did alot of amazing things but also some questionable things. the whole dan quinn affair, lack of dedication to the game early in his career, keeping bowman out of practices, promoting the country club in the 90s, retiring partially because he didnt like how the refs were calling the game and then also suddenly retiring with some sort of mysterious heart condition that was never heard about again when the team sucked. i also dont like his political views. it also annoys me when pens fans say lemieux>gretkzy, when there isnt a single metric where that is true.

he got the pens two cups but i also think hes the reason why they didnt get more. he was meddling and overstepped his bounds as a player, so i also think he might be a meddling owner.

Lemieux's PPG average was higher than Gretzky's when he originally retired. When he came back it dropped below. So there was at least one metric that pointed to it. But yeah, by stats it's hard to argue Lemieux > Gretzky.

You seem to love to point out the bad in people. Did you forget that the dude played through cancer? No one should question his dedication to the game.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Mario Lemieux is also why we still have a hockey team instead of Kansas City.

 

[steveg]

and more important for this debate, the team has taken very drastic steps this summer to un-pans-ify this team

I love your creation of this new word. First time I've seen some form of "pansy" used as a verb -- that's great!

Outstanding!

 

[Darth Vitale]

There was actually a large thread on the main board about Mario's negative effect on the Pens. Maybe someone can search it up? I recall some evidence being mentioned

If there is any evidence we would know it better than any other fan-base. Why read that thread, because we want to know about the heresay and guesswork from fans who watch the Pens and know Mario's habits even less than we do?

I love your creation of this new word. First time I've seen some form of "pansy" used as a verb -- that's great!

Outstanding!

I aim to please. I thought it had a nice ring to it.

 

[member 51464]

Lemieux's PPG average was higher than Gretzky's when he originally retired. When he came back it dropped below. So there was at least one metric that pointed to it. But yeah, by stats it's hard to argue Lemieux > Gretzky.

You seem to love to point out the bad in people. Did you forget that the dude played through cancer? No one should question his dedication to the game.

I believe I've seen comparisons of what it would be if Gretzky retired after the same number of games/seasons/years of age as Lemieux at Lemieux's initial retirement age and Gretzky was still way ahead.Dude was just ridiculous statistically.