Did Mario hold back the Pens?

[cassius]

Look, I know it's beyond sacrilegious to question #66 around here, but just hear me out for a second. In trying to rationalize the reasons behind the Penguins fall from grace from 2010-2014, one could argue that Mario Lemieux was the driving force that held the Penguins back.

I have no doubt that Mario wants to win, although you could argue his stance towards toughness (post-Islanders rant and post-Matt Cooke) made a severely negative impact on the way the roster was constructed.

Lets face it: to succeed in the NHL post-season, it requires a certain level of grit and toughness. I think everyone around here can agree that element was clearly missing from this roster for the past few years.

Over the years, I have watched as this team transformed from one that was tough to play against to an incredibly gutless/soft team.. an example of that is how Brandon Dubinsky pretty much mugged our team captain during the first round playoff series against Columbus. No gloves were dropped, nobody was coming to Sid's defense, and our enforcer was scratched from the lineup every night.

This Penguins team was not stirring things up or defending their captain, in fact it was the complete opposite. They were on the receiving end when it came to any physical play. Completely passive and not initiating any sort of physical play. To make matters worse, they weren't working the cycle down low and they were playing on the perimeter to shy away from physical contract.

Who is to blame for this? I think a lot of it goes back to Mario. It seems like after the Matt Cooke / Islanders incidents, he made a conscious effort to neuter this roster and strip away the chippy/gritty players from the Penguins roster.

Luckily, it seems like ownership has capitulated on this issue as evidenced by adding guys like Steve Downie / Carcillo (tryout), but it's a shame that it took so long for them to realize the errors of their ways. If you ask me, I think Mario was a big reason why this roster lacked toughness for all these years.

It's an admission from ownership that you cannot win in this league with skill alone. I'm glad to the came this realization (better late than never), but it's a shame that it took so long.

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[orby]

The Penguins weren't unsuccessful because they lacked grit and toughness. They were unsuccessful because Shero didn't consistently put enough offensive talent in the top six while he stuffed the bottom 6 with useless plugs, the team drafted and developed players very poorly, and Bylsma's strategy was a complete and total mess. Dan freakin' Carcillo is not gonna be what reverses fortunes for the Penguins.

 

[penguins2946*]

Didn't Mario specifically say that he had no input on the roster in an interview with DK?

 

[PensPlz]

There is a huge difference between players like Downie and Carcillo when compared to a Trevor Gillies or pre-2011 Matt Cooke. Mario was spot on. Shero held us back.

 

[Gurglesons]

First off, without Mario this team is in Kansas City. Second, teams like the Kings and Hawks won the cup with gritty players like Pearson, Saad, etc. Not the Carcillos. These types of moves reek of the exact mentality you are speaking on. It is an old hockey fable and with the move of franchises hiring numbers guys like Dellows hopefully we start to see useless players like Carcillo lose their jobs more frequently. When the Isles and Stars start making it deeper in the playoffs every franchise will copy their outlook and start replacing fourth liners with speedy small players. Number one to blame
for our unsuccesful season was mamagement in the form of Shero and Bylsma. Number two is our franchise player in Crosby. The last two seasons he has been an essential part of why we didnt succeed. Finally, our goalie is a headcase that should've been traded after the Isles series.

 

[Nac Bomb]

Mario's stance was against violence, not toughness and grit.

 

[cassius]

Mario's stance was against violence, not toughness and grit.

So where was the toughness/grit during the Columbus series when Crosby was getting mugged by Dubinsky on every shift?

 

[Gurglesons]

So where was the toughness/grit during the Columbus series when Crosby was getting mugged by Dubinsky on every shift?

We had no capspace last year because we went all in the year before. We had plently of "grit" on that team in the form of Murray and Morrow and we got beat because Boston played a faster paced system with their third and fourth line.

 

[Nac Bomb]

So where was the toughness/grit during the Columbus series when Crosby was getting mugged by Dubinsky on every shift?

Players and coaches responsibility maybe. Shero's responsibility as well. I guarantee Mario wants what every team wants, a fast, big bodied, skilled team that forechecks well and plays responsible d. That isles games, and matt cooke's incidents have nothing to do with building a playoff roster or creating a 'soft' ideology within the organization. Those are examples of violence in the game that should be spoken out against.

 

[Ogrezilla]

So where was the toughness/grit during the Columbus series when Crosby was getting mugged by Dubinsky on every shift?

Ask Ray Shero, not Mario.

 

[Shady Machine]

So where was the toughness/grit during the Columbus series when Crosby was getting mugged by Dubinsky on every shift?

Was Mario the general manager? You can blame him for not firing Bylsma and Shero earlier but not for the make up of the team. Also, Mario is the driving force behind his buddy Tocchet being a coach on this team. Mario knew the value of having tough, gritty, but talented hockey players around. Stevens and Tocchet as 2 examples.

What Mario wrote that letter against was a sideshow that pretended to be a hockey game. Not against physical, tough, and gritty hockey. I suppose it's possible the neutering of Cooke was a bad thing driven by Mario, but it came to the point where he was hurting the team with his suspensions more than he was helping. One more incident and Cooke would have been out of the league. So whoever influenced that decision did both the Penguins and Cooke a favor. A favor worth a $10mil contract.

The reality is that we don't really know how much Mario influenced the roster. He says he gave full authority to his GM. Whether you believe that or not is up to you.

 

[vikingGoalie]

I don't know where the blame should go.
I do know that by my eyeball test. That prior to the islander debacle, we were a feared team in the league. We forechecked with purpose, we would put the puck into the corner and then hammer anyone on the other team that dared to try and get it.

Now the exact why Ray/Dan where in charge then, and then fast forward a bit with those two still in place and we are soft as butter is hard to know.

We grinded like mad against Tampa, but no one could score.
Kunitz was one of our main kamikaze pilots but he was getting injured and if he played like that still would miss half the season (at least).

So Ray could have been transforming the team because he felt the grind the f'ers down approach wasn't working. Hard to say.

The timing though is a bit suspect. Because I still think that after the islander game we started the shift from hard as hell to play against to soft as butter.

As far as Dubinsky (and Staal for that matter) repeatedly cross checking crosby in the head. I think it is was Blysma telling everyone to not take a penalty. I mean as soon as Despres defended his goal tender, he got benched and criticized by his coach to the press. That and the fact that Ray had populated the team with soft players and midgets.

 

[mikethelegacy]

We had no capspace last year because we went all in the year before. We had plently of "grit" on that team in the form of Murray and Morrow and we got beat because Boston played a faster paced system with their third and fourth line.

Having no cap space had nothing to do with the year before. It had everything to do with the fact that the cap was 6 million dollars less (from 70.2 to 64.3) than the year before....

 

[Fordy]

shero assembled the lineup. not mario

 

[Freeptop]

I actually think the catalyst for the change in team philosophy wasn't Mario's letter, but the 2012 playoff loss to the Flyers. In that series, the Pens lost their collective minds, with pretty much everyone criticizing them for it. The team over-reacted and went soft after that.

 

[Shady Machine]

I actually think the catalyst for the change in team philosophy wasn't Mario's letter, but the 2012 playoff loss to the Flyers. In that series, the Pens lost their collective minds, with pretty much everyone criticizing them for it. The team over-reacted and went soft after that.

I agree with this.

 

[WayneSid9987]

After '09 til now, i'd say he's done a pretty horrible job. Hurt more than helped in regaurds to the product on the ice. Thats changing though, finally.

He's done great stuff off the ice though.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

IMO their biggest issue wasn't being soft. Eventually, it was that they had almost no bottom 6, lacked top 6 wingers, were carrying deadweight around, didn't have balanced lines, had cap space allotted to stupid areas and they didn't balance out the loss of toughness with anything else. The team just got worse in multiple areas, it was a downward slide, and that held them back more than being soft ever could.

 

[Your Boy Troy]

It is obvious what my point of view is.

Let us compare the amount of toughness that surrounded the team during the 2010-2011 season and the 2011-2012 season.

2011:

Talbot
Godard
Engelland
Rupp
Asham

2012:

Engelland
Asham
Vitale
MacIntyre (buried in the minors)

I think that Mario's comments p***yfed the entire team. However, I am sure that the upper management shared that same opinion as well. Shero should largely be at fault for not growing a pair and addressing the many issues (not just toughness) regarding this team. The amount of time that Shero wasted on Crosby and Malkin will forever anger me. He didn't provide them the talent they needed, nor did he ever bother protected them either. What a lousy ****ing GM that he turned into. I was opposed to the J.R. hiring initially, but he did more moves during this off-season than what Shero ever did in his career.

 

[billybudd]

Mario's generally not that hands on. I despise soft hockey, and here are my best guesses as to why this happened.

#1 Mario made that statement and was reviled as a hypocrite. Morehouse overreacted in circling the wagons and demanded perfect-world hockey in the future so as to protect his boss from criticism. I've heard a lot of bad things about Morehouse, but nobody ever told me anything like this; it's just a guess. This is deductive reasoning based on how campaign managers react to criticism of a candidate.

Or

#2 Shero and/or Dan went soft, either independently or together. Some of the "anonymous" statements from (cough Engelland) seem to support the idea that Dan was more interested in committing zero penalties as a strategy to win on special teams than not being ****ies. That said, those comments were pretty self-serving from a UFA to be.

Anyways, these are my guesses as to why we went soft. We'll probably never know.

I find it equal parts amusing and sad that it took the hiring of a GM who doesn't particularly believe in grit to get the team back to sea level. It's crazy how soft we got under the last regime. Patrick had one or two clubs this soft (under Constantine) but he was seriously bargain-hunting at the time. Had to sacrifice somewhere in the lineup.

 

[billybudd]

I actually think the catalyst for the change in team philosophy wasn't Mario's letter, but the 2012 playoff loss to the Flyers. In that series, the Pens lost their collective minds, with pretty much everyone criticizing them for it. The team over-reacted and went soft after that.

It's possible.

If that's the case, it was Dan and Ray, not upper, upper management (66, Morehouse, Burkle). Certainly possible.

 

[cassius]

It is obvious what my point of view is.

Let us compare the amount of toughness that surrounded the team during the 2010-2011 season and the 2011-2012 season.

2011:

Talbot
Godard
Engelland
Rupp
Asham

2012:

Engelland
Asham
Vitale
MacIntyre (buried in the minors)

I think that Mario's comments p***yfed the entire team. However, I am sure that the upper management shared that same opinion as well. Shero should largely be at fault for not growing a pair and addressing the many issues (not just toughness) regarding this team. The amount of time that Shero wasted on Crosby and Malkin will forever anger me. He didn't provide them the talent they needed, nor did he ever bother protected them either. What a lousy ****ing GM that he turned into. I was opposed to the J.R. hiring initially, but he did more moves during this off-season than what Shero ever did in his career.

2014 was even more brutal..

2014:

Vitale
Engelland (Scratched)
Bortuzzo
Glass

Yikes..

 

[Shady Machine]

What were these anonymous comments?

 

[billybudd]

What were these anonymous comments?

Shortly after the season, Engel--er Mr Anonymous said to, I think Yohe, he wanted to be sticking up for his teammates but the coach wouldn't allow it because penalties. Theoretically, it could have been Glass or Bortuzzo, but it makes the most sense for Engelland to have called a reporter and said that. On my phone, so searching for the exact quote would be something of a pain.

 

[Shady Machine]

Shortly after the season, Engel--er Mr Anonymous said to, I think Yohe, he wanted to be sticking up for his teammates but the coach wouldn't allow it because penalties. Theoretically, it could have been Glass or Bortuzzo, but it makes the most sense for Engelland to have called a reporter and said that. On my phone, so searching for the exact quote would be something of a pain.

Oh yeah I do recall that. Thanks.