Post-Game Talk: Devils Win! Devils 4 - Isles 0

[TBF1972]

I agree and I don't think the majority of the criticism of Nico was unwarranted.

Nico has been subpar for a player of his caliber for quite some time now. Yes, he has had some solid games lately but I think we'd be setting the bar quite low if that was the litmus test of his abilities.

He is held to a high standard than other players on the team due to an array of reasons but mostly b.c of his skill/draft position/contract/C on his sweater.

calling subban a key piece is setting the bar a few levels lower.

except we are doing limbo dance here.

 

[Zippy316]

i don't think subban is instrumental for the devils to qualify for the po. if somebody is ready to pay good value for subban (@50%), i am not against trading him. the value can come in form of a pick, a prospect or a nhl player or a combination of it.

you can't have to many good centers in the nhl. you just may have not enough cap space for all of them. thankfully we are still a few years removed from making such a decision.

That will send all sorts of wrong messages to a young team that finally manages to turn the corner. We have plenty of young picks/prospects and assets at this point. Now we just need results.

The only way trading Subban makes sense is perhaps for a lateral move to balance out the defense. Maybe for a defensive RHD to play top PK minutes and pair with Smith. That could make some sense to free up the logjam at the point on the PP, pair Smith with a defensive guy, Severson with Siegenthaler, and give us a solid LD-RD duo for PK1.

Even then that’s a dangerous game to play to hope that another defender can come in and seamlessly fit in.

 

[MartyOwns]

I was advocating possibly trading Nico for a player of equal or better value because I honestly believe that Dawson Mercer has the potential to be a better player then Nico and I think it would be a waste to have Jack-Nico-Dawson down the middle when we’re lacking a true legit winger to pair with our franchise center. Who knows, we might see Mercer on Jack's wing when we need some offense, like what the Oilers do with Draisaitl and McDavid.

couple of things…1) as you alluded to, the “problem” of having 3 good centers for out top two lines is very easily solved by moving mercer to the wing. that seems a lot less disruptive and a lot more realistic than trading our captain/22 year old/first overall pick. 2) with nico’s stats and contract, there’s no way we’re getting back someone of equal value, so we would have to retain or add a sweetener to return a legitimate top line winger.

 

[JimEIV]

I think posters who were appalled that Nico was getting some heat need to realise that he wasn't playing like he's been in these past couple of games and that's the player we need on a every game basis if we want to move forward. Analytics might be saying something different but if we put down our calculators down for just half a second and be honest with ourselves, he wasn't. He wasn't horrible either, so let's not go crazy either but he was nowhere close to what we saw against Florida and especially what we saw from him yesterday.

No player is immune to criticism, especially not our best players.

He's playing at a ppg over his last 5...but this has been par for the course throughout his career. 1 ppg and nothing...And he ends up with his usually .6-ish ppg or 50-ish point pace. That is exactly where he is right now.

13.66 goal pace
41 assist pace
54.66 point pace

And this isn't just a "small sample size". Nico is approaching 250 career games...He's at 242...And large chucks of his games are the same... his pace really doesn't vary much.

 

[captainscott]

If this team is actually going to compete for a playoff spot there’s no point in trading a rental Subban for at best a mid-low 2nd rounder. If they’re out of the race then sure liquidate again, we’ve gotten real good at that. But this team’s been in the wilderness long enough, why screw around with our chances to make it?

agree in fact i am not opposed to bringing him back for a another contract. depending on what he will command. nothing long term.but im sure he is looking for one more 3-5 deal. likely i wouldn't do that with whats coming up the pipeline but PK gets tons of grief but he is a good defensman... makes mistakes but does more good than bad...

 

[captainscott]

For what it's worth the Panthers and Islanders fans both think they lost to the worst team of the division. Not unlike what a lot of us (myself included) thought after the Cali roadtrip. So maybe the Ducks and Kings are better than we thought and the Devils are also better than other teams think.

or sometimes teams just have a bad game.

 

[JimEIV]

Hard to make real assessments after 1 or 2 games...But things look real encouraging right now.

20 game increments is a good gauging interval in my opinion.


20 game mark

Sun, Nov. 28

5 PM

Philadelphia Flyers

Home

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

41 game mark - Half way

Sat, Jan. 15

1 PM

Montreal Canadiens

Away

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[britdevil]

Nico is the highest earning forward and the captain.

He absolutely should be open to criticism. He stunk for a while and is now coming around. More than that, he’s playing like how we expect. That’s excellent news.

Not one of these guys is above criticism. No need to bag on posters for having expectations.

 

[ChicksDigTheTrap]

For what it's worth the Panthers and Islanders fans both think they lost to the worst team of the division. Not unlike what a lot of us (myself included) thought after the Cali roadtrip. So maybe the Ducks and Kings are better than we thought and the Devils are also better than other teams think.

This year is also different because COVID is not impacting the season. Last year the Devils started off similar to this and than COVID hit the team. Bottom line, the Devils were the better team in the last 2 games. I really think NYI fans are in for reality check this year.

 

[AfroThunder396]

A playoff appearance would be enormously important for this young group, even if it's a one and done. The only guys still on the roster from 2018 are Hischier, Bratt, Severson, Wood, and Zacha.

I don't want to sell Subban just for the sake of selling him and getting a 2nd or whatever because that just creates a hole you have to fill. If anything we should be looking to buy, although as it stands I'm pretty happy with the defense as a whole.

 

[JimEIV]

A playoff appearance would be enormously important for this young group, even if it's a one and done. The only guys still on the roster from 2018 are Hischier, Bratt, Severson, Wood, and Zacha.

I don't want to sell Subban just for the sake of selling him and getting a 2nd or whatever because that just creates a hole you have to fill. If anything we should be looking to buy, although as it stands I'm pretty happy with the defense as a whole.

100%

And Subban has been a solid contributor this year. 6 points in 12 games - And stepped up in Dougie's absense...He has done well for us this year.

 

[jkrdevil]

If they are in a playoff race, Subban essentially becomes an own rental for the Devils. You let him play out the contract as that is a slot you would ordinary trade for a rental.

 

[Buck Dancer]

couple of things…1) as you alluded to, the “problem” of having 3 good centers for out top two lines is very easily solved by moving mercer to the wing. that seems a lot less disruptive and a lot more realistic than trading our captain/22 year old/first overall pick. 2) with nico’s stats and contract, there’s no way we’re getting back someone of equal value, so we would have to retain or add a sweetener to return a legitimate top line winger.

I'm aware that we're not looking to move our captain for whichever winger would look great alongside Jack Hughes. Would that be an option I'd look into, absolutely but is that realistic, probably not. I'm just saying that if Calgary were to call about Nico and they're having a hard time signing Matthew Tkatchuk, I would listen long and hard about a deal like that. I love Nico Hischier, the Nico we saw in the past couple of games.

I've been saying for months now that I want to be harder to play against and not be pushed over by teams who are made for the playoffs. We will be a playoff team sooner rather then later and I don't see us going far in the postseason if we're icing Bratt, Johnsson, Nico, Jack, Mercer, Tatar, Zacha, etc as our main forwards just like the Leafs aren't going anywhere in the post season with a cast of finesse players. The posters who were laughing at the fact that we needed to get bigger are now saying that our 6"6' and 6"5' dmen have completely changed our team and having 2 big bodies clear the front of the net or simply shield an opponent to clear the zone with a nice breakout pass has been something we've been lacking for years. Siegenthaler is also another low key addition who's helping our blueline on our 3rd pair when we were icing diminutive dmen for years.

This is a contact sport and having players with size and skill is always a plus for any team, doesn't matter how you want to slice it.

 

[HischierSeDgewOrk]

Addition of Hamilton and Graves were beyond massive. Siegenthaler is solid and a nice move that's paying dividends as well. Moving everyone down a pair put them in proper roles and elevated everyone's game. HUGE. I feel confident now with any pairing on the ice. It's a good feeling that I haven't felt in years. Especially with Blackwood to cover up for any mistakes.

 

[Buck Dancer]

He's playing at a ppg over his last 5...but this has been par for the course throughout his career. 1 ppg and nothing...And he ends up with his usually .6-ish ppg or 50-ish point pace. That is exactly where he is right now.

13.66 goal pace
41 assist pace
54.66 point pace

And this isn't just a "small sample size". Nico is approaching 250 career games...He's at 242...And large chucks of his games are the same... his pace really doesn't vary much.

I will take the Nico we saw yesterday, every day of the week and twice on sundays... especially knowing that we have Hughes and Mercer who can lead this team offensively. A well rounded center who works hard and can put up 60 pts a year is always a plus for any team. Does that compute with his draft seeding, absolutely not but that's life.

 

[JimEIV]

I will take the Nico we saw yesterday, every day of the week and twice on sundays... especially knowing that we have Hughes and Mercer who can lead this team offensively. A well rounded center who works hard and can put up 60 pts a year is always a plus for any team. Does that compute with his draft seeding, absolutely not but that's life.

There is the sticking point...He has never been on 60 point pace...I mean if you are carve out some random subset you might be able to find something...But you have to ignore the other half of the little to nothing games to get there. Hard working, reliable, are no doubt admirable qualities, they just don't make up for the lack of production however.

The other problem is his time is going to get cut when Jack returns - Right now Nico is averaging a career high 19:13 per game his career average is 17:35 - At some point Mercer is going to have to get more time too right now he's 15:08 ATOI.

I don't think Nico has made the most of his time while being the undisputed #1 center - And he has been exactly that for a large portion of his career.

 

[AfroThunder396]

The only thing that bothered me about Nico's game last night was that him (and Zacha) are both clearly trying to feed Holtz for his first goal. That's nice and everything, but I think the two of them passed up some decent looks trying to set up Holtz especially early in the game.

 

[Buck Dancer]

There is the sticking point...He has never been on 60 point pace...I mean if you are carve out some random subset you might be able to find something...But you have to ignore the other half of the little to nothing games to get there. Hard working, reliable, are no doubt admirable qualities, they just don't make up for the lack of production however.

The other problem is his time is going to get cut when Jack returns - Right now Nico is averaging a career high 19:13 per game his career average is 17:35 - At some point Mercer is going to have to get more time too right now he's 15:08 ATOI.

I don't think Nico has made the most of his time while being the undisputed #1 center - And he has been exactly that for a large portion of his career.

He's not a point producer, he's a well rounded center who does everything well when he's on his game. Taking into consideration that we were a garbage team for the past 7+ years is also a direct impact to Nico's point total since he joined the league. He had great stats as a rookie when playing next to Taylor Hall but who has he had after that? Looking at our past roster would explain why Hischier didn't post up the stats you're asking of him so far in his young career.

We're slowly seeing the rewards of what is one of the youngest roster in hockey and the future looks bright.

 

[Buck Dancer]

Nico is the highest earning forward and the captain.

He absolutely should be open to criticism. He stunk for a while and is now coming around. More than that, he’s playing like how we expect. That’s excellent news.

Not one of these guys is above criticism. No need to bag on posters for having expectations.

Some seem to think that asking a player to play to the level we're used to seeing is being negative and wanting to move him for a mid round pick and a career AHL'er. I don't have any expectations when talking about Jimmy Vesey, Michael McLoed and any other bottom 6 forwards but I do have expectations when it comes to our best players because they're the ones that will lead us out of the mess we've been in for the past decade.

 

[Hisch13r]

Nico is the highest earning forward and the captain.

He absolutely should be open to criticism. He stunk for a while and is now coming around. More than that, he’s playing like how we expect. That’s excellent news.

Not one of these guys is above criticism. No need to bag on posters for having expectations.

He didn't stink. No pts in a small sample =/= Stinking. He was playing well. His shot contributions were there, the underlying numbers were great, his defense was improved. Literally just didn't produce much in a handful of games.

 

[Dialamo]

Adam Larsson for Dawson Mercer. Trade is one for one.

 

[Saugus]

Adam Larsson for Dawson Mercer. Trade is one for one.

I loved Larsson when he was on the Devils, and like him still. But I definitely would not do that.

 

[Buck Dancer]

He didn't stink. No pts in a small sample =/= Stinking. He was playing well. His shot contributions were there, the underlying numbers were great, his defense was improved. Literally just didn't produce much in a handful of games.

You have to stop thinking that the posters who wanted more out of Nico were saying no pts = he's playing bad, because that's not the case at all.

You can throw every analytic stat in the book our way, he was nowhere as effective to start off the year, as he's been in the past couple of games. It might not be a fact based on your stats but it's eye popping to the ones who just sit back and watch the game.

I think some, not all, are wayyyyyyyyyy too focused on #'s and it's taking away the ability to analyze a game just by looking at what is happening on the ice instead of a stat sheet. Yes, I do know that your wonderful stats are somewhat representative of what happens on the ice but stats don't paint the entire picture and that's a concept that some aren't grasping.

You can have a 3 point night and have a horrible game. The contrary is also true. Saying that Nico has been playing the same way since the start of the season isn't true but hey, more power to you if you see it that way.

 

[Cheddabombs]

Adam Larsson for Dawson Mercer. Trade is one for one.

If only we could be so lucky

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

You have to stop thinking that the posters who wanted more out Nico were saying no pts = he's playing bad, because that's not the case at all.

You can throw every analytic stat in the book our way, he was nowhere as effective to start off the year, as he's been in the past couple of games. It might not be a fact based on your stats but it's eye popping to the ones who just sit back and watch the game.

I think some, not all, are wayyyyyyyyyy too focused on #'s and it's taking away the ability to analyze a game just by looking at what is happening on the ice instead of a stat sheet. Yes, I do know that your wonderful stats are somewhat representative of what happens on the ice but stats don't paint the entire picture and that's a concept that some aren't grasping.

You can have a 3 point night and have a horrible game. The contrary is also true. Saying that Nico has been playing the same way since the start of the season isn't true but hey, more power to you if you see it that way.

You repeatedly said he was playing poorly and wasn’t trying hard enough and all types of wrong things. I’m not going to dig through all your posts but it was relentless criticism that wasn’t really fact-based at all. You keep trying to shift the argument by saying he shouldn’t be above criticism. Obviously that’s true. But the way you were doing it was totally foolish.