Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part IV

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

For those saying it didnt work out, how many goals would Toffoli had to have scored for the trade to "work out" for NJ? He had 26 goals in 61 games here, or a 35 goal pace over a full season. Did it not work out because the team as a whole wasn't good enough and they traded him for a package similar to what they gave up? Or did people maybe have some over-inflated sense of what Toffoli was? To me, he was pretty much exactly as advertised. A guy with a tremendous shot, but on the slower side and can't carry a line. Thats kind of what we thought he was all summer was it not?

or is it just that you really love Sharangovich?

 

[MadDevil]

If we were in a playoff spot right now nobody would be saying a f***ing word about the Toffoli trade being bad. Yeah he was one of the older and slower players on the roster. He was also one of the best goal scorers on the roster. Which, if I'm not mistaken, is kind of why teams employ him. It was a trade that made sense given everybody thought the team was going to be good and competing for a Cup. Shit went wrong and the season went sideways. It happens.

Also, this revisionism with Shara is maddening. People are acting like he suddenly had this breakout when he's always been a streaky scorer. He's the same player he was here. You know, the same guy some people on here bitched about a year ago when he had a down year? He's a good dude, and I'd love to still have him, but Christ you'd think we traded a core player for some broken down bum with the way some people treat the trade.

 

[NJDevs26]

I mean if you’re going to rip the Toffoli trade, don’t act like adding and replacing ONE player materially changed the entire team concept and make it out like he was a net negative. Especially since they’ve had similar issues after he left.

 

[TrufleShufle]

If we were in a playoff spot right now nobody would be saying a f***ing word about the Toffoli trade being bad. Yeah he was one of the older and slower players on the roster. He was also one of the best goal scorers on the roster. Which, if I'm not mistaken, is kind of why teams employ him. It was a trade that made sense given everybody thought the team was going to be good and competing for a Cup. Shit went wrong and the season went sideways. It happens.

Also, this revisionism with Shara is maddening. People are acting like he suddenly had this breakout when he's always been a streaky scorer. He's the same player he was here. You know, the same guy some people on here bitched about a year ago when he had a down year? He's a good dude, and I'd love to still have him, but Christ you'd think we traded a core player for some broken down bum with the way some people treat the trade.

This post oozes more anger than all of the discussion about it thus far combined..... And at least in my talking about the trade, have not brought up the production of Shara this year. Because to my point, he would actually be less productive as a single player and being used in a different way but it would be to the better of the team.

 

[Better Call Sal]

Sad Vitek makes me sad also.

Feel bad for the guy.

 

[NJDfan86]

This post oozes more anger than all of the discussion about it thus far combined..... And at least in my talking about the trade, have not brought up the production of Shara this year. Because to my point, he would actually be less productive as a single player and being used in a different way but it would be to the better of the team.

Is this about Sharangovich? If so, in your opinion how would he have been used that would have been better for the team? Not being sarcastic - I was (and still am!) a Sharangovich fan but outside of the PK I struggle to see where he fit moving forward.

If I felt he could legitimately play C I would likely agree that it isn't a good trade, but he is not a center.

 

[MadDevil]

Sad Vitek makes me sad also.

Feel bad for the guy.

I hope a new start somewhere else helps him. Not sure that place is San Jose, although at least there's less pressure given where they are in their rebuild timeline.

 

[TrufleShufle]

Is this about Sharangovich? If so, in your opinion how would he have been used that would have been better for the team? Not being sarcastic - I was (and still am!) a Sharangovich fan but outside of the PK I struggle to see where he fit moving forward.

If I felt he could legitimately play C I would likely agree that it isn't a good trade, but he is not a center.

It was in my opinion about the options and flexibility. Shara had the ability, when not cutting it with the top 6, to be sent down and still hold his own. Change his game to fit the style of his line mates and do what was needed with that line in that role. If an injury happened or a different player was having a cold streak/line up needed a shakeup he could be brought back up and play the way he needed to with the more productive lines. In a perfect world, we added at the deadline and Shara was a part of a great 3rd line, or that's assuming he wasn't playing with a golden stick like he is this year.

 

[Call Me Al]

For those saying it didnt work out, how many goals would Toffoli had to have scored for the trade to "work out" for NJ? He had 26 goals in 61 games here, or a 35 goal pace over a full season. Did it not work out because the team as a whole wasn't good enough and they traded him for a package similar to what they gave up? Or did people maybe have some over-inflated sense of what Toffoli was? To me, he was pretty much exactly as advertised. A guy with a tremendous shot, but on the slower side and can't carry a line. Thats kind of what we thought he was all summer was it not?

or is it just that you really love Sharangovich?

it's neither?

to me for the trade to have worked out he would have either had to make an impact in the playoffs this season, or signed for longer and been a contributing player for the team as we pursue our window.

people trying to throw goal numbers out for his 60 games miss the entire point. he came here and had minimal impact on our record and we gave up a useful player for him. he could have scored 100 goals here but we missed the playoffs and he's gone so who gives a shit?

sharangovich is a *fine* player. he's not a superstar, he's not the missing piece, but he's young, skilled and can serve a variety of roles as needed. he also had a down year so the whole "healthy scratch in the playoffs" line of thinking isn't that impactful to me. he obviously bounced back from that. do i love him? no. like i said i was happy at the time of the trade.

but we made that trade with ONE goal in mind - Toffoli help us get to the playoffs and then be a valuable part of a successul playoff run. didn't work.

 

[McDuffz88]

Is this about Sharangovich? If so, in your opinion how would he have been used that would have been better for the team? Not being sarcastic - I was (and still am!) a Sharangovich fan but outside of the PK I struggle to see where he fit moving forward.

If I felt he could legitimately play C I would likely agree that it isn't a good trade, but he is not a center.

Sharangovich would of been used in a way that would of benefited the entire team over Toffoli. As other people pointed out, Toffoli was stuck to Hughes hip & we couldn't play him anywhere else in the lineup because he wouldn't be good in those situations. The definition of a 1 trick pony (a really good 1 trick pony). This led to players like Meier being forced on the 3rd line (I know you'll blame Lindy but maybe Lindy also knew Toffoli wasn't capable on other lines?). A player like Sharangovich however is a Swiss army knife. Need him to play in the top 6 due to an injury? He got you. Need him to play 3rd line? He got you. Need him to penalty kill (he was extremely good at that), need him to be a center for some games because an injury? He has you covered. Want him to play defensive hockey on the 4th line? He has you there too. Sharangovich may not of put up as many goals or points as he in in Calgary but he would of been a more useful player as a whole to help fill the holes we needed to be filled. Toffoli couldn't fill any of those holes. He was only good for goals and nothing else. As we are seeing now Timo should of been in Toffoli's spot the entire time (sure go blame injuries) but nonetheless if Toffoli was still on this team I highly doubt Timo would of been granted his top 6 role on his good wing with top PP minutes (all taken from Toffoli).

 

[NJDfan86]

It was in my opinion about the options and flexibility. Shara had the ability, when not cutting it with the top 6, to be sent down and still hold his own. Change his game to fit the style of his line mates and do what was needed with that line in that role. If an injury happened or a different player was having a cold streak/line up needed a shakeup he could be brought back up and play the way he needed to with the more productive lines. In a perfect world, we added at the deadline and Shara was a part of a great 3rd line, or that's assuming he wasn't playing with a golden stick like he is this year.

Sure, you can move him around more easily I suppose - but I'm not sure you couldn't move Toffoli around more than the Devils did so I wouldn't be willing to weight that very highly considering the broad disparity in the on ice impacts form those two players. If Sharangovich was a jack of all trades type I could understand, but he is pretty limited in most area's other than scoring.

 

[Bleedred]

I would have been more annoyed if we re-signed Toffoli, unless it was something that he realistically would not have taken.

I was resigned to the fact that it would be a one year rental. It just sucks it was in a junked season.

 

[njdevils1982]

I'll bring up the Grabner trade to further my point. In hindsight, it was a bad trade, but you would be lying if you didn't see why it made sense when it happened. How he was playing, how we could use him, how he would add to our strengths and bolster our weaknesses a bit. It just didn't work. It should have, but just.... didn't.

Toffoli in hindsight, and when it happened, you could list all the reasons it was a bad idea after the fact and was going to be a bad idea before it happened and they would pretty much stay the same

f*** grabner. im convinced it was a trojan horse trade

 

[NJDfan86]

Sharangovich would of been used in a way that would of benefited the entire team over Toffoli. As other people pointed out, Toffoli was stuck to Hughes hip & we couldn't play him anywhere else in the lineup because he wouldn't be good in those situations. The definition of a 1 trick pony (a really good 1 trick pony). This led to players like Meier being forced on the 3rd line (I know you'll blame Lindy but maybe Lindy also knew Toffoli wasn't capable on other lines?). A player like Sharangovich however is a Swiss army knife. Need him to play in the top 6 due to an injury? He got you. Need him to play 3rd line? He got you. Need him to penalty kill (he was extremely good at that), need him to be a center for some games because an injury? He has you covered. Want him to play defensive hockey on the 4th line? He has you there too. Sharangovich may not of put up as many goals or points as he in in Calgary but he would of been a more useful player as a whole to help fill the holes we needed to be filled. Toffoli couldn't fill any of those holes. He was only good for goals and nothing else. As we are seeing now Timo should of been in Toffoli's spot the entire time (sure go blame injuries) but nonetheless if Toffoli was still on this team I highly doubt Timo would of been granted his top 6 role on his good wing with top PP minutes (all taken from Toffoli).

He is not good at any of this besides the PK! You are romanticizing a former player who was lovable and filled a need when this team was bad.

Sharangovich is much more of a one dimensional player at 5v5 than Toffoli.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Toffoli was a fine fit. He would’ve looked even better if Dougie Hamilton was there all year and if Jack and Timo were fully healthy. He’s a complementary player and a damn good one.

 

[TrufleShufle]

Sure, you can move him around more easily I suppose - but I'm not sure you couldn't move Toffoli around more than the Devils did so I wouldn't be willing to weight that very highly considering the broad disparity in the on ice impacts form those two players. If Sharangovich was a jack of all trades type I could understand, but he is pretty limited in most area's other than scoring.

That's where I think the disconnect with my thinking is, I really think Toffoli is useless to downright hinderance playing with any line that doesn't have someone feeding him pucks. If you don't think that, I won't try to convince you of it, but that's where my line of thinking comes from.

 

[NJDfan86]

That's where I think the disconnect with my thinking is, I really think Toffoli is useless to downright hinderance playing with any line that doesn't have someone feeding him pucks. If you don't think that, I won't try to convince you of it, but that's where my line of thinking comes from.

OK - but what is Sharangovich good at besides the same? Mind you I have already acknowledged that he would be helpful on the PK.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

it's neither?

to me for the trade to have worked out he would have either had to make an impact in the playoffs this season, or signed for longer and been a contributing player for the team as we pursue our window.

people trying to throw goal numbers out for his 60 games miss the entire point. he came here and had minimal impact on our record and we gave up a useful player for him. he could have scored 100 goals here but we missed the playoffs and he's gone so who gives a shit?

sharangovich is a *fine* player. he's not a superstar, he's not the missing piece, but he's young, skilled and can serve a variety of roles as needed. he also had a down year so the whole "healthy scratch in the playoffs" line of thinking isn't that impactful to me. he obviously bounced back from that. do i love him? no. like i said i was happy at the time of the trade.

but we made that trade with ONE goal in mind - Toffoli help us get to the playoffs and then be a valuable part of a successul playoff run. didn't work.

if you think that Tyler Toffoli was going to have some huge impact on whether we made the playoffs or not, you probably had too high of expectations from the start.

There are a handful of other reasons way more pressing as to why this team is likely going to miss the playoffs.

By your logic, no one on the team is having anything other than a bad season because we're likely to miss the playoffs. I don't see it that way whatsoever.

 

[TrufleShufle]

OK - but what is Sharangovich good at besides the same? I have already acknowledged that he would be helpful on the PK.

I said he was better at playing in a bottom six role. I can name all the attributes to be picked off one at a time, but essentially Lazar plays a game Toffili can't and won't, Toffoli plays a game Lazar would if he could but can't. Shranagovich IMO can do both.

I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind, I get where you stand, I'm just not sure how much better I can explain my point.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

I said he was better at playing in a bottom six role. I can name all the attributes to be picked off one at a time, but essentially Lazar plays a game Toffili can't and won't, Toffoli plays a game Lazar would if he could but can't. Shranagovich IMO can do both.

I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind, I get where you stand, I'm just not sure how much better I can explain my point.

The problem is there is nothing to support this though. Like literally nothing. He doesn’t have a good overall game and couldn’t even get in the lineup in a “bottom 6” role for us in the playoffs.

 

[TrufleShufle]

The problem is there is nothing to support this though. Like literally nothing. He doesn’t have a good overall game and couldn’t even get in the lineup in a “bottom 6” role for us in the playoffs.

Alright then, that's my problem to deal with then I guess.

 

[NJDfan86]

I said he was better at playing in a bottom six role. I can name all the attributes to be picked off one at a time, but essentially Lazar plays a game Toffili can't and won't, Toffoli plays a game Lazar would if he could but can't. Shranagovich IMO can do both.

I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind, I get where you stand, I'm just not sure how much better I can explain my point.

My question was more like "what evidence do we have" that Sharangovich has this versatile play style? He has played up and down the lineup before, but that was both necessity and his own failures as opposed to him generating strong results no matter who he plays with. And the results when he did play all over it weren't really remarkable - he isn't good defensively, he's not physical, he isn't a good D-Zone breakout player, he isn't a good passer, he isn't physical, etc.

I also feel like the statement "Lazar plays a game Toffili can't and won't, Toffoli plays a game Lazar would if he could but can't" can be an ad lib for about 80% off NHL players - total package players are few and far between so most players end up adapting in some way.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Jack and Yegor with and without each other 20-21 to 22-23:

 

[TrufleShufle]

My question was more like "what evidence do we have" that Sharangovich has this versatile play style? He has played up and down the lineup before, but that was both necessity and his own failures as opposed to him generating strong results no matter who he plays with. And the results when he did play all over it weren't really remarkable - he isn't good defensively, he's not physical, he isn't a good D-Zone breakout player, he isn't a good passer, he isn't physical, etc.

I disagree with most of the last sentence, which again is our disconnect. The evidence is watching them play, which I know is taboo around here, but it's all the effort I feel like giving this now. Said my opinion, explained it a few times, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. Not everything has to be debated for 10 pages. We disagree. Not a big deal.

 

[NJDfan86]

I disagree with most of the last sentence, which again is our disconnect. The evidence is watching them play, which I know is taboo around here, but it's all the effort I feel like giving this now. Said my opinion, explained it a few times, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. Not everything has to be debated for 10 pages. We disagree. Not a big deal.

Agree to disagree then.