Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part IV

[njdevils1982]

Those unis have too much blue for @Satans Hockey lol

Those are the NY Liberty colors, might be a homage to them. (Wait, looked it up and Liberty are Seafoam Green/Black and this is Turquoise/Navy Blue. Close.)

All the teams have the Rangers thing, they haven’t named the teams yet so they don’t have logos. League came together in ~5 months.

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ya the whole league got rush job generic uniforms which isnt the best way to sell a brand. its only for one season though.

 

[HoliksGhost]

 

[MasterofGrond]

Both, what would Toffoli contribute if he wasn't on the PP? Only 5v5 and only with Jack? Yea coach should have changed it up, but it's still a hinderance when you have a unatasker who is useless when tasked with anything else.

Nothing is black and white, I think Toffoli made the fluidness of the team structure much worse. Bad coach on top of that. This team had multiple problems, that's obvious right?

Yeah it absolutely did. Across the roster.

My point is just that Toffoli, even if you think he was a problem (and I don't), is so far down the list of them as to not matter. There's about 3 enormous problems and another half dozen reasonable ones before you should even think about teasing out the nuances of Toffoli's effect on roster flexibility.

 

[TrufleShufle]

Yeah it absolutely did. Across the roster.

My point is just that Toffoli, even if you think he was a problem (and I don't), is so far down the list of them as to not matter. There's about 3 enormous problems and another half dozen reasonable ones before you should even think about teasing out the nuances of Toffoli's effect on roster flexibility.

K let me know when I can talk about this one, sorry it was the topic at hand. Didn't realize we had to go in order of importance, won't happen again.

 

[JrFischer54]

talking about toffoli when we should be talking about playoff lineups smh

 

[NJDfan86]

One of these players below is Tyler "molasses" Toffoli, and the other is a player everyone here would want - can we please stop being reductive around players speed?

 

[MasterofGrond]

K let me know when I can talk about this one, sorry it was the topic at hand. Didn't realize we had to go in order of importance, won't happen again.

Look I'm happy to discuss it. It's what we're doing. I'm sorry if my comment read as trying to shut down discussion, because I would NEVER want to do that. The posts must flow.

But, since his stats are pretty good, both traditional and advanced, we're reduced to speculating on how a lack of "roster flexibility" affects the performance of the team if you want to criticize the man's play for NJ. And that's fine I guess, but it's incredibly nebulous. Did having Toffoli play mostly with Hughes make the goaltending a series of sieves? Did it cause Marino did turn into Gurgelson's Marino fever dream from last year?

I support being critical of players when they deserve it, but anything about Toffoli is just based on ~~vibes~~ which is no way to run a sports team.

 

[Guttersniped]

One of these players below is Tyler "molasses" Toffoli, and the other is a player everyone here would want - can we please stop being reductive around players speed?

Are you going to say who the other player is or is this a guessing game?

 

[Bcap88]

Well when he played him with Nico it went poorly. Probably because Nico plays in defensive situations, and not the most choice offensive situations. Small sample perhaps, but should a coach keep running a player in a role which is showing very poor early results?

If Toffoli is going to play it should be with a player like Jack in predominantly offensive situations. I have no problem with that.

Nico has a 60 percent o zone start this year
Which is a career high.

However, when one forward has to be attached to another it cuts down your line combos and versatility in half.

You either have to play a shitty lw higher up or you have to play someone out of position to accommodate those two being jointed at the hip.

Ruff shuffled every line but refused to separate jack and Toffoli

 

[TrufleShufle]

Look I'm happy to discuss it. It's what we're doing. I'm sorry if my comment read as trying to shut down discussion, because I would NEVER want to do that. The posts must flow.

But, since his stats are pretty good, both traditional and advanced, we're reduced to speculating on how a lack of "roster flexibility" affects the performance of the team if you want to criticize the man's play for NJ. And that's fine I guess, but it's incredibly nebulous. Did having Toffoli play mostly with Hughes make the goaltending a series of sieves? Did it cause Marino did turn into Gurgelson's Marino fever dream from last year?

I support being critical of players when they deserve it, but anything about Toffoli is just based on ~~vibes~~ which is no way to run a sports team.

I understand all that, but I can also talk about an issue in a vacuum. I can know about the leak in the roof, which is causing mold and know both those thing need to be addressed while also pointing out the AC is busted.

And I'm not basing it on vibes, I'm basing it on seeing him away from the top 6 and everyone else away from the top 6. Nobody became more useless when moved down the line than Toffoli, which made it impossible to try some lines. Palat, Timo, Mercer, Haula and even Bratt when bumped down randomly. All didn't create a black hole just because we needed to shake things up. It's my opinion that having Sharon here instead of him would have gave us a much bigger element of flexibility. Whether it was through injuries, cold streaks or hell strategically playing a certain line/way against certain teams to try and combat whatever their strengths were (not the Ruff would do that.)

Would it have changed a single point in the standings?? I absolutely wouldn't pretend to know, but I do know it would change the make up of the team and do think there is strong chance it would have made things easier.

 

[TheUnseenHand]

One of these players below is Tyler "molasses" Toffoli, and the other is a player everyone here would want - can we please stop being reductive around players speed?

If you can't see that Toff was slow and his slowness, whether top speed or acceleration, was hampering the offense and defense then I don't know what to say. His lack of speed was well documented before coming here, especially for a guy expected to play in the top 6, and was painfully clear in watching him play.

 

[NJDfan86]

Are you going to say who the other player is or is this a guessing game?

The slower player is Matthew Tkachuk

 

[Guttersniped]

Look I'm happy to discuss it. It's what we're doing. I'm sorry if my comment read as trying to shut down discussion, because I would NEVER want to do that. The posts must flow.

But, since his stats are pretty good, both traditional and advanced, we're reduced to speculating on how a lack of "roster flexibility" affects the performance of the team if you want to criticize the man's play for NJ. And that's fine I guess, but it's incredibly nebulous. Did having Toffoli play mostly with Hughes make the goaltending a series of sieves? Did it cause Marino did turn into Gurgelson's Marino fever dream from last year?

I support being critical of players when they deserve it, but anything about Toffoli is just based on ~~vibes~~ which is no way to run a sports team.

I’ve said it a bunch of times, so I wasn’t going to bother to say it again, but I wasn’t thrilled about trading for a player who was going to be 32 year old UFA.

If the season went better for us, and we made a playoff run with Toffoli after he scored ~35 goals, there’s a very good chance that his contract ask would have been even bigger.

So we would either have rented Toffoli for Sharangovich/3rd or saddled ourselves with another too long winger contract that ends when the not speedy player is +35 years old.

I hated the idea of wasting assets on rental instead of a longer term player and it would be tough to strong arm Toffoli into a contract we felt comfortable with.

Toffoli was… Toffoli this season. He was productive when a lot of guys weren’t. The reason we weathered losing him is Meier is white hot.

 

[NJDfan86]

If you can't see that Toff was slow and his slowness, whether top speed or acceleration, was hampering the offense and defense then I don't know what to say. His lack of speed was well documented before coming here, especially for a guy expected to play in the top 6, and was painfully clear in watching him play.

I very clearly can see that he is slow - I disagree with you that it impacted him anymore than it ever had and it obviously played little impact on the Devils play this year.

 

[TrufleShufle]

I'll bring up the Grabner trade to further my point. In hindsight, it was a bad trade, but you would be lying if you didn't see why it made sense when it happened. How he was playing, how we could use him, how he would add to our strengths and bolster our weaknesses a bit. It just didn't work. It should have, but just.... didn't.

Toffoli in hindsight, and when it happened, you could list all the reasons it was a bad idea after the fact and was going to be a bad idea before it happened and they would pretty much stay the same.

 

[TheUnseenHand]

I very clearly can see that he is slow - I disagree with you that it impacted him anymore than it ever had and it obviously played little impact on the Devils play this year.

He's a fine player. He just was never going to fit what this team was trying to to do under Ruff. And with Lindys inability to adjust, he was set up for failure. His point totals speak to how good a player he is, but having him here, especially with the way the roster is constructed and who our key pieces are, was trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

 

[TrufleShufle]

The slower player is Matthew Tkachuk

I'd rather the player who was a step behind getting to the board battle but still won it rather than the guy who arrives early but still loses it. When their "speeds" are that close, but one is aggressive in the way he attacks puck battles and every other aspect, pretty sure it negates what little speed difference there is by a long shot.

If Miles Wood was the speed of Toffoli he would have never played an entire NHL season. It's about everything you bring to the table as a package.

 

[Satans Hockey]

Those unis have too much blue for @Satans Hockey lol

Those are the NY Liberty colors, might be a homage to them. (Wait, looked it up and Liberty are Seafoam Green/Black and this is Turquoise/Navy Blue. Close.)

All the teams have the Rangers thing, they haven’t named the teams yet so they don’t have logos. League came together in ~5 months.

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Didn't know, still think they are ugly lol

Apparently they moved these two games to Newark because the Bridgeport crowds were that awful, as low as 728 people one game.

 

[NJDfan86]

He's a fine player. He just was never going to fit what this team was trying to to do under Ruff. And with Lindys inability to adjust, he was set up for failure. His point totals speak to how good a player he is, but having him here, especially with the way the roster is constructed and who our key pieces are, was trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

These two statements are entirely in conflict with each other.

 

[Guttersniped]

I'll bring up the Grabner trade to further my point. In hindsight, it was a bad trade, but you would be lying if you didn't see why it made sense when it happened. How he was playing, how we could use him, how he would add to our strengths and bolster our weaknesses a bit. It just didn't work. It should have, but just.... didn't.

Toffoli in hindsight, and when it happened, you could list all the reasons it was a bad idea after the fact and was going to be a bad idea before it happened and they would pretty much stay the same.

I f***ing hated the Grabner trade when it happened lol. (I don’t want to get into that again, but woof.)

But Grabner had 25 goals in 59 GP as a Ranger and 2 goals in 21 GP as Devil, so yeah, that trade definitely did not work out at all in anyway and you can’t say the same thing about Toffoli.

 

[Guttersniped]

Didn't know, still think they are ugly lol

Apparently they moved these two games to Newark because the Bridgeport crowds were that awful, as low as 728 people one game.

No one goes to Baby Islander games in Bridgeport either, they should have played in Hartford instead.

 

[NJDfan86]

I'd rather the player who was a step behind getting to the board battle but still won it rather than the guy who arrives early but still loses it. When their "speeds" are that close, but one is aggressive in the way he attacks puck battles and every other aspect, pretty sure it negates what little speed difference there is by a long shot.

If Miles Wood was the speed of Toffoli he would have never played an entire NHL season. It's about everything you bring to the table as a package.

Both players are slow, both players are productive (Matthew more so) - but there isn't a fact based argument to be had that being slow means you can't play for this (or any) team. No one cares that Tkachuk is slow in the same way that no one should care that Toffoli is slow because they put up results.

Your Miles Wood anecdote proves the point - Miles Wood is 10 times the skater but Toffoli is 10 times the player, you can't be as reductive as "this player is really slow, that's why he doesn't fit." because it's not provable with any of the evidence we have.

 

[MartyOwns]

if TT hindered us, then i really hope we can find someone this offseason to hinder us just as much next season. hinder me, daddy fitz

 

[Satans Hockey]

No one goes to Baby Islander games in Bridgeport either, they should have played in Hartford instead.

Calling them NY and playing in Hartford is quite the stretch though. Seems like poor planning all around with the NY team to think Bridgeport was ever remotely a good idea.

 

[NjDevsRR]

For what it’s worth. Grabner made the big forecheck and takeaway that led to the ITS NOESEN ITS NOESEN gwg It was a big gm, wouldn’t have made the playoffs without it.