Prospect Info: Devils Prospect Rankings By Position

StevenToddIves

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May 18, 2013
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I'd say there's maybe 7-8 guys that have a chance at the NHL with only 2 of them having a real shot at becoming elite.

Defensively theres not much to be excited about outside of Ty Smith. And that's a huge bummer for a team with such horrible defenseman.

Bahl looks okay...I'd guess most likely a third pairing guy. Nothing jumps out screaming guaranteed top 4 from what I've seen, but he's definitely #2 after Smith. Mukhamadullin is still, minimum 2+ years away and a huge question mark of a pick to begin with.

A guy like Misyul is turning 20 next week, doesn't produce anything, even in the MHL and can't get more than 10 minutes a night in the KHL. I just dont see the excitement for him or Ohotyuk. Hopefully I'm wrong.

With defensemen, I don't look at point production nearly as much as I do with forwards. I don't care how many points Nikita Okhotyuk scores, I just care that when he's on the ice he makes it very, very difficult for the opposition to score. Conversely, a defenseman like Reilly Walsh needs to produce points because that's what his game is based upon -- driving the offense from the blueline, while you hope he just plays respectable defense. In his case, someone looking at the numbers should feel encouraged -- in his final two Harvard seasons, Walsh potted 58 points in 63 games, excellent numbers for an NCAA blueliner. Still, I ranked Walsh behind McCarthy, because McCarthy is quite advanced defensively and thus has a higher "talent floor". I think the odds are terrific that McCarthy develops into a quality, third-pairing guy who is very difficult to play against.

I suspect where I am more optimistic than you is that I strongly believe NHL teams need a mix of high-end talent and depth in order to succeed. Tampa Bay obviously is loaded with high-end talent with players like Kucherov, Point, Stamkos, Hedman and Vasilevski. But they had all these talented guys for the past two seasons and had disappointing playoff exits. What put them over the top in 2020? Well, to me (and to most of the hockey minds I've discussed this with), it was clearly the addition of excellent depth players -- Coleman and Goodrow and Pat Maroon and Bogosian combined with the continued development of tough players-who-are-far-better-than-their-numbers-indicate like Cirelli, Cernak and Gourde.

I'm very optimistic about the Devils young talent because I think they have a nice balance of high-end guys and depth players. Jack Hughes has incredible scoring potential, while Nico Hischier is on the verge of joining the conversation as one of the best two-way centers in the league. Blackwood looked great in goal last year, and Ty Smith tore up the WHL and has to be considered a top prospect by anyone worth their salt. Jesper Bratt might turn out to be the best 6th round pick of the entire decade. Alexander Holtz was widely touted as the best goal-scoring prospect in the 2020 draft and Dawson Mercer has an even superior all-around game. Nolan Foote has a shot which is almost as good as Holtz's and also gives you a physical, power game at LW. That's a lot of high end talent.

But we also have a large group of promising, physical defensemen and checking line caliber forwards coming up to add the balance and physicality and compete level on a bottom six and the defense core. To me, this is something to be excited about when you look at the last few Stanley Cup winners, not just Tampa but also St. Louis and Washington. They all had high-end talent complimented by physical, high-compete depth players who could log big minutes and make a difference in ways that don't always show up on the stat sheet. I think the Devils have done a nice job following this model.
 

GameSeven

ἢ τὰς ἢ ἐπὶ τὰς
Jan 11, 2008
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You don't find it the least bit trivial to look at the years that We were in the finals, won the cup the year before and the year after and drafted Parise who is better than anything we have today?

It's almost like you gaslighting the children out there taking this subset of data knowing what was going on during this time. It's like North Korean media shit going on here.

I mean come on.
Dude, I called out the two worst examples in 20 years, and qualified it by saying for the first time *ever* NJD had no first round pick. Still, it's quite spectacular in its failure, if just for laughs. I get that cherry-picking the worst is not fair.

But it's not cherry-picking to acknowledge that from 01-14 *combined* we are a full standard deviation worse than the next worst team in the entire league over that span.

I expect folks on here recognize my context and I'm not trying to gaslight anyone.

Also, for context? Finding the likes of Rafalski and Madden beyond the draft were masterful discoveries that help balance out some of our worst drafting futility, but I don't think we can make the argument that our drafting over a decade and a half wasn't dreadful.
 

Triumph

Registered User
Oct 2, 2007
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You slide smoother than a greased watermelon...6 names you've named there... 2 we've drafted, 4 we didn't even have in our system for a full year in a discussion I perceived as a draft one...I am not discounting them as prospects - They just don't count when the conversation is poor drafting vs good drafting.

The discussion started with Steven posting about our prospects, which include those players that were traded for.

They already traded 3 players they drafted in 2016, all of them having some sort of positive value when being dealt. McLeod's a miss - it happens. He's not a huge miss. He can still have a decent NHL career. We can't even close the book on 2016 or come close to doing so - the players drafted there turned 22 this year. There's still room for some of them to grow.

Binghamton was really coming on when the world shut down. They could roll 4 lines and were scratching good players too. That should continue if there is an AHL season.
 

StevenToddIves

Registered User
May 18, 2013
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Brooklyn, NY
Someone posted their model attempted to project prospects’ production from ages 18-23. He used his model to to evaluate “Team Prospect Pipelines by using the NHL Expected Value metric for each prospect”, this is before the lastest draft and includes players in the NHL.
Applied Prospect PipeLinE (APPLE): Assisting the analysis of hockey prospects using Recurrent Neural Networks

View attachment 372823

Woe is Columbus, haha. Thanks for digging up that chart -- you guys are just amazing at research sometimes, I swear.
 

MartyOwns

thank you shero
Apr 1, 2007
24,263
18,145
Like Zacha (6), McLeod(11 turned to 12), Hischier(1 overall), Smith(#18 overall), Hughes(#1 overall) - He did - probably in a more profound way

if you’re saying those were all blown picks (except zacha, who was lou’s) and they were on par with the disastrous names i mentioned, we’re not likely to see eye to eye on this.
 

Triumph

Registered User
Oct 2, 2007
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Dude, I called out the two worst examples in 20 years, and qualified it by saying for the first time *ever* NJD had no first round pick. Still, it's quite spectacular in its failure, if just for laughs. I get that cherry-picking the worst is not fair.

But it's not cherry-picking to acknowledge that from 01-14 *combined* we are a full standard deviation worse than the next worst team in the entire league over that span.

I expect folks on here recognize my context and I'm not trying to gaslight anyone.

Also, for context? Finding the likes of Rafalski and Madden beyond the draft were masterful discoveries that help balance out some of our worst drafting futility, but I don't think we can make the argument that our drafting over a decade and a half wasn't dreadful.

It's also worth noting that while Parise was a great pick, he never won a Stanley Cup here, and he was only ever close to doing so one time. The reason for that is that the Devils drafted terribly between 99 and 200x besides him and Zajac.
 

StevenToddIves

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May 18, 2013
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Trying not to be a Debbie Downer here but..
Only impactful prospects worth a crap I see are Smith Holtz Foote and Mercer. (Top 6 potential or top 4 D ) with possibly Bahl added to the list as hopefully a #4 D .
Another way of saying it is I would not be disappointed if we traded anyone of our prospects that I didn’t have listed for a young NHL roster player .
It’s not like I would be “ohhh nooooooo! I can’t believe we traded Boqvist and Walsh for Player X (Sergachev lol) “

I’d trade for some more quality over quantity .
Rather have one Hotlz prospect vs 10 “meh” prospects .

Is the opposite of Debbie Downer a "Debbie Upper"?

My friend, think of it this way. There is only room for an NHL team to have 6 or 7 top-6 forwards and 3 or 4 top 3 D.

The Devils already have core forwards in Hischier, Hughes and Bratt and likely three more on the way in Holtz, Mercer and Foote. That's 6.

The Devils have perhaps two core defensemen in Smith and Bahl.

We're really not that far off. I get that Devils fans are frustrated by a long time of mostly cellar dwelling, but there is certainly cause for optimism. The Devils are top 5 in the NHL in prospect talent, and probably at the head of the class in terms of prospect depth. Like most Devils fans, I would like to see NJ pick up another future core piece for the blueline, but we also need to keep in mind that the 2021 draft class is stocked on the blueline.

The future is bright.
 

glenwo2

LINDY RUFF NEEDS VIAGRA!!
Oct 18, 2008
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It's arguable that Ty was ready to make the jump last season but, for whatever reason, was denied.

Some say he didn't do enough to warrant being on the Big team in which I say "We had John Hynes as Head Coach" and that tells you all you need to know about the decision-making being equal to the IQ of a doorknob.

I think Ty makes it this coming season (especially with Ruff being the Head Coach).
 

JimEIV

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Feb 19, 2003
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Dude, I called out the two worst examples in 20 years, and qualified it by saying for the first time *ever* NJD had no first round pick. Still, it's quite spectacular in its failure, if just for laughs. I get that cherry-picking the worst is not fair.

But it's not cherry-picking to acknowledge that from 01-14 *combined* we are a full standard deviation worse than the next worst team in the entire league over that span.

I expect folks on here recognize my context and I'm not trying to gaslight anyone.

Also, for context? Finding the likes of Rafalski and Madden beyond the draft were masterful discoveries that help balance out some of our worst drafting futility, but I don't think we can make the argument that our drafting over a decade and a half wasn't dreadful.
My point is I don't think you can detach winning/records from the conversion.

Very simply put, missing picks 28 or 29 is meaningless. You had 29 because you were good...Now missing pick #11 is a completely different scenario...You had 11 specifically because youweren't a good team...Not being a good team and missing high pick - or even not getting substantial value from your high picks is exactly how you stay bad. That is were we are today.

If the conversation doesn't at least somewhat take into consideration the wins/loses it seems disingenuous to me.
 

JimEIV

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Feb 19, 2003
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if you’re saying those were all blown picks (except zacha, who was lou’s) and they were on par with the disastrous names i mentioned, we’re not likely to see eye to eye on this.

Can this board settle this please....

It seems when it's Zacha it was Lou and Conte and when it's Blackwood its Shero. It can't be both. Which is it?
 

Triumph

Registered User
Oct 2, 2007
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I'm convinced that pick would never happen today. Look how far Lapierre fell, 3 spots in front of where Foster went, 22 vs. 25. Lapierre played 19 games his draft year and 48 games his D-1 scoring nearly a point per game in the Q as a 16 year old.

Probably not, but teams have a lot more info now than they did then. That info would help them find a player better than Foster to take, I think.

Also Foster went 28th in a weak draft year whereas Lapierre went 22nd in a strong one.
 

StevenToddIves

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May 18, 2013
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Brooklyn, NY
Id place Mukhamadullin above Bahl based purely on highest end potential and quick progression. and Bastian behind Mercer and Holtz, perhaps Thompson as well since you seem to like him a lot. Im a big fan of Bastians and have liked his play so far in the NHL and AHL. Think he could end up a good third liner for us and I hope he manages to stick to the main roster this year! I also feel you have Studenic mighty low, I have loved Studenic’ international play!

Thanks for the input and your ever-present optimism!

Now, in defense of my rankings...

To me, Bahl has a very high floor as a bottom-three, Jamie Oleksiak-type defenseman. I watched every Dallas game in the playoffs this year, and I am very confident in saying Oleksiak was their second best defenseman after only Miro Heiskanen. And that's Bahl's floor. Bahl is a better skater, he's a smarter player, and his puck skills are superior.

The reason I like Thompson so much is that he makes me look like an idiot. I realize that you're a newer face on our Devil boards, but I really hated that draft pick when NJ made it in 2019's 4th round. And he made me look stupid right away. Usually, if I want to look stupid that fast, I need to go on a date. Thomson saved me the trouble of putting on shoes. But seriously, he's got a better shot than I realized and he's also a very adept playmaker. He really tore it up at Providence last year, and looks to be a classic late-bloomer. I would say that Thompson has very good second-line upside, which is just a tremendous thing to say about a player one-year removed from being drafted as an over-ager in the 4th round.

I really like Studenic, too. Whether or not he makes it as a regular NHL player, he's a good 5th round pick simply because he has been a useful player in the AHL and could play a few NHL games as early as this year. But my concern is that Studenic lacks the high-end skill to make an NHL top 6, and he lacks the intangibles to make an impact on a bottom 6. So, he's a bit of a "tweener" who will have a tough time carving out an NHL role.

Bastian was admittedly another prospect I was slightly less than thrilled with. We got him in the 2016 2nd round, two picks after the guy I really wanted in DeBrincat and a few picks before another guy I really wanted in Ryan Lindgren. I like his blend of power and motor, but I don't see him as having the skill or mobility to skate with a top 6 on a regular basis at the NHL level. I do see him as a useful power forward for your bottom 6. Ultimately, the reason for his low ranking (and Studenic's) at RW has more to do with how strong the Devils are at the position than how good they are. On a team like Boston or Calgary, Bastian and Studenic would likely be the top 2 RW prospects and on teams like Arizona and Tampa they would be top 3.
 

Hisch13r

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May 16, 2012
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That is an example of how Pavel will use his frame going forward - confidence is everything for a power forward!

This is why I dont want to move him, his potential is still high, he is still only 23


He just never assets himself at all. I believe he had like one of the highest exit/entry %'s in the league this year and also had the lowest exit/entries per 60. It's so annoying
 

StevenToddIves

Registered User
May 18, 2013
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Brooklyn, NY
@StevenToddIves 2020 To Do list:
1) Write up of the 2020 draft prospect done
2) Rank all 2020 draft prospect overall and by position done
3) Forcast the 2020 draft done
4) Analyze and grade the Devils 2020 draft picks done
5) Rank the Devils prospect pipeline by position (as ordered by myself) done
6) Provide the winning lottery numbers of NEXT week outstanding

@StevenToddIves 2021 To Do list:
1) Write up of the 2021 draft prospect outstanding
2) Rank all 2021 draft prospect overall and by position outstanding
3) Forcast the 2021 draft outstanding
4) Analyze and grade the Devils 2021 draft picks outstanding
5) Rank the Devils prospect pipeline by position (as ordered by myself) outstanding
6) Provide the winning lottery numbers of NEXT week conditional: if I already burned all the cash from this year

THANKS A LOT once again for the huge amount of work and the great insight provided

2020-21 To-Do List:
1) Get a life: still working on it
2) Figure out how to make words into different colors on HFBoards: not even close
3) Stay out of prison: so far, so good
 
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Forge

Blissfully Mediocre
Jul 4, 2018
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Can this board settle this please....

It seems when it's Zacha it was Lou and Conte and when it's Blackwood its Shero. It can't be both. Which is it?

My answer to this is basically the conversation in major league.

"Too high!"
"Too high? What do you mean too high? Too hard"
"Who gives a shit, it's gone"

Lou...shero ... Who gives a shit, they're gone
 
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glenwo2

LINDY RUFF NEEDS VIAGRA!!
Oct 18, 2008
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That is an example of how Pavel will use his frame going forward - confidence is everything for a power forward!

This is why I dont want to move him, his potential is still high, he is still only 23


The problem is that these moments are few and far between with him.

EDIT : And not to be that guy but that was a very poor job on the Goaltender's(was that Luongo?) part not to Poke-check there.
 
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Ds88

Registered User
Jun 21, 2009
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I do hope they finally start converting on some of these prospects. On paper they look great but outside of 2 first overalls Bratt is the only guy who has made an impact in the nhl so far under the current scouting team. Unless I’m forgetting someone.
 
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