GDT: Devils @ Flyers 7pm MSG+: Just how many more of these are there??!!

[Emperoreddy]

No if. Cory will bounce back if we put a better team in front of him.

 

[Blender]

"Clean hit" as Gudas tries to take JQ's head off.

 

[NjDevsRR]

"Clean hit" as Gudas tries to take JQ's head off.

Goon

 

[Billdo]

What honestly could Ray have done that would make this team much better in the short term without sacrificing the long term? He acquired Palmieri and Hall in his first two seasons here. UFA was bare. He inherited some bad contracts with Clowe, Cammalleri, Zajac, and Greene. Before people get mad I'm not saying they are bad players I'm saying I don't think teams would sign those guys to what is remaining on their contracts. He didn't have one star skater on the team or a hotshot prospect on the team he inherited either. You can look at all the new GMs in the past five years and see they had more than what Shero inherited in terms of assets. And they haven't gotten lucky in the lottery yet either. It

Only Devils fans on hf act like this team is a couple small pieces away. The pieces the Devils don't have would make any team great if they added it (#1C, #1D). No team in the league would have traded their roster/prospects for the team that Lou left behind.

I feel like this should be pinned on the top of the board. It's perfect.

 

[Devils Dominion]

Does Philly get officially eliminated if they lose to the Rags tomorrow?

 

[Blender]

Does Philly get officially eliminated if they lose to the Rags tomorrow?

I think so yes. If they lose they will be 6 points back of Boston with 3 games left, but Boston has 9 more ROWs.

 

[Devils Dominion]

I think so yes. If they lose they will be 6 points back of Boston with 3 games left, but Boston has 9 more ROWs.

I would prefer the Devils to hit the final nail on Tuesday, but, that may not be in our big picture interest.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Let them win and screw up their draft position more.

 

[Blender]

Let them win and screw up their draft position more.

Philly winning 3 out of the next 4 would be great, especially if the loss comes to us.

 

[Bleedred]

What honestly could Ray have done that would make this team much better in the short term without sacrificing the long term? He acquired Palmieri and Hall in his first two seasons here. UFA was bare. He inherited some bad contracts with Clowe, Cammalleri, Zajac, and Greene. Before people get mad I'm not saying they are bad players I'm saying I don't think teams would sign those guys to what is remaining on their contracts. He didn't have one star skater on the team or a hotshot prospect on the team he inherited either. You can look at all the new GMs in the past five years and see they had more than what Shero inherited in terms of assets. And they haven't gotten lucky in the lottery yet either. It

Only Devils fans on hf act like this team is a couple small pieces away. The pieces the Devils don't have would make any team great if they added it (#1C, #1D). No team in the league would have traded their roster/prospects for the team that Lou left behind.

The only thing I don't like about you calling those contracts bad is that none of them were bad when they were signed. Not even close.

You don't think Zajac would have gotten at least $6 million per year if he hit UFA in 2013? Most of us here figured we'd need to be prepared to pay him $6.5 per year back before Lou extended him.

You don't think Greene would have gotten at least $5 million per if he went to UFA in 2015? Cammalleri was more than worth his salary (injury problems aside and when he actually played) for the first two years of his deal. He is making less per year than David Clarkson and was a much better player and much more established and proven than Clarkson was.

Clowe was only questionable because of previous head injuries, but that's what LTIR is for. And he was playing up to his salary as a Devil when he was actually on the ice. He replaced Clarkson and since 2013 when Clowe became a Devil and Clarkson became a non-Devil, both of them scored 30 points. Only Clowe did it in 56 games and Clarkson did it in 144 games.

 

[Triumph]

All of those contracts are bad when they're signed, but there's a difference between market value and actual value. Just because there's people out there that would've paid more than what you got it for doesn't mean you are actually buying it for a good price, especially with depreciating assets like 30+ year old hockey players. And now that the Devils are way below the cap, the AAV on those deals is way less important than the length of them. If the Devils could take a year off Greene/Cammalleri/Zajac/Clowe's deals and add $1M in AAV on each, I suspect they would.

 

[Jets012]

No if. Cory will bounce back if we put a better team in front of him.

The defense and offense stinks. But I won't lie, Schneider even with a top team in front of him would still not be the same this year. Usually when teams give up a lot of shots like we have, goalies save percentages can be inflated. All of Schneider's numbers are way down this year.

Now, there's a chance this is just a bad year for him. That is definitely possible considering how good he's been the last several years. But if this isn't, this is a very discouraging thing that is happening to him. Now I'm more inclined to believe that the former is more true than the latter, but we'll have to wait and see next year.

 

[R8Devs]

The only thing I don't like about you calling those contracts bad is that none of them were bad when they were signed. Not even close.

You don't think Zajac would have gotten at least $6 million per year if he hit UFA in 2013? Most of us here figured we'd need to be prepared to pay him $6.5 per year back before Lou extended him.

You don't think Greene would have gotten at least $5 million per if he went to UFA in 2015? Cammalleri was more than worth his salary (injury problems aside and when he actually played) for the first two years of his deal. He is making less per year than David Clarkson and was a much better player and much more established and proven than Clarkson was.

Clowe was only questionable because of previous head injuries, but that's what LTIR is for. And he was playing up to his salary as a Devil when he was actually on the ice. He replaced Clarkson and since 2013 when Clowe became a Devil and Clarkson became a non-Devil, both of them scored 30 points. Only Clowe did it in 56 games and Clarkson did it in 144 games.

It's not really about the cap hit, it's more about the term of those deals. I understand Zajac's at the time, Kovalchuk hadn't retired and the Devils just lost Parise. Doesn't mean it's a good contract, though.

Clowe for five years, Cammalleri for five years, and Greene for five years when the Devils were in the position they were in and the ages these guys were was not really a move in the positive direction at all. And just because the Devils didn't sign Clarkson doesn't mean they had to go out and get Clowe for five years.

And btw LTIR doesn't work like that, the Devils just don't get 4.8 mil in cap relief because he's hurt.
Cap friendly explains it better https://www.capfriendly.com/ltir-faq


Btw I'm not saying Lou is a bad GM lol. every GM has bad years and there is a price to pay for being good for so long.

 

[Bleedred]

It's not really about the cap hit, it's more about the term of those deals. I understand Zajac's at the time, Kovalchuk hadn't retired and the Devils just lost Parise. Doesn't mean it's a good contract, though.

Clowe for five years, Cammalleri for five years, and Greene for five years when the Devils were in the position they were in and the ages these guys were was not really a move in the positive direction at all. And just because the Devils didn't sign Clarkson doesn't mean they had to go out and get Clowe for five years.

And btw LTIR doesn't work like that, the Devils just don't get 4.8 mil in cap relief because he's hurt.
Cap friendly explains it better https://www.capfriendly.com/ltir-faq

Every team has these bad contracts though. If anything, signing Zubrus to that last deal was something that I was skeptical of. 2 years would have been optimal there.

I understand you're of the opinion that we should have been rebuilding when we made the signings to Cammalleri, Clowe and Greene, so that's fair enough.

As far as Clowe goes, we have one more year left of him. That dead contract isn't keeping us from doing anything. Hell, this year it might have even helped keep us over the floor.

I understand critiquing the deals that were signed for UFA's like Cammalleri and Clowe, I guess. Not Greene or Zajac though. Even though he's only been a 45 point guy most of his contract, I think we got Zajac for cheaper than we expected. And even he still makes less than Dustin Brown.

 

[Eric Sachs]

We were saying the same thing 3 years ago about that crop of prospects. Jim was gushing about Graham Black, Blake Coleman, Ryan Kujawinski, and Blake Pietila. Even Adam Larsson's ceiling seems lower than it should.

Any list of prospects will not get me excited. This team has an abysmal track record for developing players.

Tell me. Have any of the kids gotten significantly better as the year has gone on? I see the same **** night in and night out.

They all show flashes, but zero consistency. That has to fall on the assistant coaches AND the ****ing skills guy.

I agree, in a sense. I do think our current prospects are miles better than the ones you mentioned.. but if the development process is flawed, it won't matter what they look like.

I'm not convinced we have that part figured out yet. It's been quite a few years since we had a prospect that truly overachieved based on their draft position. That was probably Henrique.. 5+ years is a long time. Zacha looks pretty good but I wouldn't say he's overachieved based on being 6th overall.

In order to compete in this league, you either have to dip down low enough to get multiple guys with can't miss talent or you need to develop later picks well enough that they can be top 6 players. I don't think we have any unexpected true top 6 players right now. Everyone we've drafted beyond the 1st round looks like they can provide nice depth but one of the major problems we've had is that we haven't really struck gold in a fair bit of time. Some of that is surely prospect evaluation, some of it is definitely luck but a good chunk of that is development as well.

 

[R8Devs]

I agree, in a sense. I do think our current prospects are miles better than the ones you mentioned.. but if the development process is flawed, it won't matter what they look like.

I'm not convinced we have that part figured out yet. It's been quite a few years since we had a prospect that truly overachieved based on their draft position. That was probably Henrique.. 5+ years is a long time. Zacha looks pretty good but I wouldn't say he's overachieved based on being 6th overall.

In order to compete in this league, you either have to dip down low enough to get multiple guys with can't miss talent or you need to develop later picks well enough that they can be top 6 players. I don't think we have any unexpected true top 6 players right now. Everyone we've drafted beyond the 1st round looks like they can provide nice depth but one of the major problems we've had is that we haven't really struck gold in a fair bit of time. Some of that is surely prospect evaluation, some of it is definitely luck but a good chunk of that is development as well.

i think severson has overperformed his draft position quite a bit. definite first rounder if there was a 2012 redraft. just pretend he was the devils first round pick that year lol

 

[Bleedred]

The defense and offense stinks. But I won't lie, Schneider even with a top team in front of him would still not be the same this year. Usually when teams give up a lot of shots like we have, goalies save percentages can be inflated. All of Schneider's numbers are way down this year.

Now, there's a chance this is just a bad year for him. That is definitely possible considering how good he's been the last several years. But if this isn't, this is a very discouraging thing that is happening to him. Now I'm more inclined to believe that the former is more true than the latter, but we'll have to wait and see next year.

I think it is a bad year. Goalies like Lehtonen, Ward and Howard are declined around the age Schneider is now, but they mostly had injury problems and the odometer was a lot higher on some of them. Lehtonen fell off a cliff around 30, but he's been around forever. Howard has had all kinds of injury problems, as has Ward.

Not to mention that none of these goaltenders were as good as Schneider when they were at their best anyway. Even Schneider's first down year is still not as bad as any of those guys first down year. Lehtonen and Howard were both pretty good goaltenders until a few years ago. Ward was always kind of overrated though. He had 4 pretty good/above average years in the late 00's-early 10's and 23 good playoff games in 2006. He was never really that good though.

You could see that Schneider allows a lot more stoppable goals than he allowed in previous years here. Even though most of them aren't incredibly brutal, they're definitely stoppable and going in at a rate of higher frequency than years past. Tonight wasn't one of those games. I thought he was excellent tonight. Maybe the best player on the ice for either team. The suicide dive poke check was reminiscent of Hedberg's go-to, but I can't ding him on that or add that to his stoppable goal tally.

 

[Eric Sachs]

i think severson has overperformed his draft position quite a bit. definite first rounder if there was a 2012 redraft. just pretend he was the devils first round pick that year lol

Definitely. I should have been more clear I was talking about only forwards, really.

Drafting and developing defensemen is a different ballgame. There's a lot more variability in terms of where good defensemen were drafted.. lots of great ones in the 2nd round, for instance. You see that less with forwards, the top ones tend to go at the top of the draft.. so it's even more critical to hit a jackpot pick if you're hurting for talent but not bad enough to pick high consistently.

 

[Bleedred]

The team defense has been trash for a week now. Giving up as much as the shots against suggest, if not even more. It looked better for a while after DSP disappeared to wherever it is that he's vanished to. Now Merrill has been out, which means a defenseman that's worse than him is taking his spot.

Kinkaid and Schneider kept both the last FOUR games from being blowouts. That's even considering that second goal Kinkaid allowed last night being a bit weak. Perhaps having to kill 94854985 penalties last night made us look worse than we really would have looked if the game had more 5 on 5 time.

I would even argue Schneider kept the Winnipeg game from getting out of hand, even when you consider the two goal blown lead.

THE SAME could be said for the Dallas game that Kinkaid played last week. We were brutal, can't even say ''this game or that game is one of the worst we've played this season'' anymore, since they've become customary at this point.

 

[R8Devs]

Every team has these bad contracts though. If anything, signing Zubrus to that last deal was something that I was skeptical of. 2 years would have been optimal there.

I understand you're of the opinion that we should have been rebuilding when we made the signings to Cammalleri, Clowe and Greene, so that's fair enough.

As far as Clowe goes, we have one more year left of him. That dead contract isn't keeping us from doing anything. Hell, this year it might have even helped keep us over the floor.

I understand critiquing the deals that were signed for UFA's like Cammalleri and Clowe, I guess. Not Greene or Zajac though. Even though he's only been a 45 point guy most of his contract, I think we got Zajac for cheaper than we expected. And even he still makes less than Dustin Brown.

The point of Zajac's deal is not really the cap hit though. It's when Shero came in he has a guy that has decent production but is past his prime and is signed until 2021(when he's 35). I said his contract was justifiable at the time of the signing but that's not really my point rather it's something when Shero came in and has to plan for the repercussions of the length of that deal and for a rebuilding team that's not super ideal.

The whole point to what I said earlier is that Shero didn't inherit the pieces that could make this team great in a short span.

 

[Bleedred]

The point of Zajac's deal is not really the cap hit though. It's when Shero came in he has a guy that has decent production but is past his prime and is signed until 2021(when he's 35). I said his contract was justifiable at the time of the signing but that's not really my point rather it's something when Shero came in and has to plan for the repercussions of the length of that deal and for a rebuilding team that's not super ideal.

The whole point to what I said earlier is that Shero didn't inherit the pieces that could make this team great in a short span.

I feel there's been a lot more crappier deals than Zajac's in Lou's time, we just were competitive at the time we had them. Which might have made things even worse.

Pandolfo, White, Rolston, not even gonna get into the 3 M's from 2005.

White's was really awful, as I believe that one was signed way back in 2006 and was 6 years long, if I recall correctly. Around $2.5 million per year over 6 years for a grenade handler, who couldn't make plays with the puck and couldn't skate. That was a decade before Ben Lovejoy's current deal and roughly the same cap hit and twice as long term.

Not that 2006 White was anywhere near as bad as Lovejoy. I don't even think 2011 White was as bad as the current Lovejoy. 2012 White with the Sharks was probably as bad as Lovejoy is now though. All 14 minutes and 57 seconds of ice time he averaged tonight.

 

[NJDevs26]

There's a difference between bad contracts and contracts that hamstring you. Even if you want to consider all of those contracts bad - and I'd dispute it in a couple of those instances - we're still at the cap floor (and we still don't have enough of a prospect pipeline to have internal replacements for any of those players) so it's not like any of those deals are really preventing us from doing anything else.

All of those contracts are bad when they're signed, but there's a difference between market value and actual value. Just because there's people out there that would've paid more than what you got it for doesn't mean you are actually buying it for a good price, especially with depreciating assets like 30+ year old hockey players. And now that the Devils are way below the cap, the AAV on those deals is way less important than the length of them. If the Devils could take a year off Greene/Cammalleri/Zajac/Clowe's deals and add $1M in AAV on each, I suspect they would.

You always kind of expect the last year of a FA contract to not be pretty, it's the cost of doing business. You don't expect the last THREE years of it to not be pretty a la Camm, unless he somehow bounces back next year.

 

[Devils731]

Our PP hasn't been good this year, but I'd sooner spare Ward.

The PP has actually been extremely good once they changed systems.

 

[Blender]

The point of Zajac's deal is not really the cap hit though. It's when Shero came in he has a guy that has decent production but is past his prime and is signed until 2021(when he's 35). I said his contract was justifiable at the time of the signing but that's not really my point rather it's something when Shero came in and has to plan for the repercussions of the length of that deal and for a rebuilding team that's not super ideal.

The whole point to what I said earlier is that Shero didn't inherit the pieces that could make this team great in a short span.

If Zajac's contract is the worst thing he has to deal with from the old regime, I'd say he inherited a pretty clean slate.

 

[Devils Dominion]

Being serious here, Ray should recall Gadzic for Tuesday and demote Coleman.

With Philly being all but eliminated from playoff contention they will surely take cheap shots and runs at our rooks.

Especially the dirtiest player in the league, Goondas.