Developing the right way.

[Swayze*]

Well they've made the playoffs for like 20 years in a row

An amazing feat, so they are doing a lot of things right.

Leafs have no identity or direction at this point. Hope this changes.

I know shanny spent some time with Holland. Hopefully he learned something.

 

[silentbob37*]

Well they've made the playoffs for like 20 years in a row

An amazing feat, so they are doing a lot of things right.

Leafs have no identity or direction at this point. Hope this changes.

I know shanny spent some time with Holland. Hopefully he learned something.

A big part of that 20 year run was luck

The only reason they remained on top in the mid-late 2000's and into today (Though they aren't the cup contenders they once were) was because they got lucky with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. In the mid-late 90's the Devils, Avs and Stars were just as well run, drafted just as well and just as successful at the Red Wings, but those teams didn't get as lucky so they've all had to go through down and rebuilding phases while the Red Wings remained on top.

 

[nsleaf]

Well they would have been developed differently so......who knows?

 

[TimoneX]

A big part of that 20 year run was luck

The only reason they remained on top in the mid-late 2000's and into today (Though they aren't the cup contenders they once were) was because they got lucky with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. In the mid-late 90's the Devils, Avs and Stars were just as well run, drafted just as well and just as successful at the Red Wings, but those teams didn't get as lucky so they've all had to go through down and rebuilding phases while the Red Wings remained on top.

Is this tongue in cheek? I think you're kidding yourself if you think Detroit's 23(soon 24) year streak of playoff appearances are the result of luck. No way that happens due to luck, particularly with the parity of the current NHL environment.

Sure the Wings were lucky that Datsyuk(6th), Zetterberg(7th), and Lidstrom(3rd) were still available...but management still had to choose those guys, handle them properly, and give them the tools necessary to succeed. Their previous core of superstars taught those guys how to win and the current core is doing the same with the up and coming core of DRW stars. Nyquist(121st), Tatar(60th), and Sheahan(21st) look like great picks that have been expertly handled. DeKeyser and Glendening weren't even drafted, but they're key players in Detroit. More luck?

 

[Bluelines]

Holland has said that every Wing will learn how to play pro hockey in the AHL before they are given a shot at making the big team. Is there any risk in keeping guys like Holland,Gardnier ,Rielley in the AHL too long?

IMO there is far too much upside in keeping them on the farm and very little downside in keeping them in the AHL too long.

You hear all the time that teams want players to dominate at each level before they move up. It seems to me developing confidence by playing at levels below where you should probably be playing is key in developing solid well rounded players. Guys like Tartar and Nyquvist could have played on the Wings sooner than they did but due to team philosophy were kept on the farm. Didn't seem to hurt them.

 

[PuckMagi]

"Play the kids... let them develop!"

"You'll screw up their development by rushing them into the NHL!"

So what's better? NHL or AHL?

I think that if you're good enough to play in the NHL... you should play in the NHL regardless of your age.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

100% agree.

I also think that's exactly why Babcock is looking to leave - I think he's using the ability of foresight to realize that once he looses one or two of his key veteran pieces, that thing might fall down like a cheap house of cards.

Also - since 2006, Detroit have been pretty much average when it comes to draft success (measured based on games played by players drafted).

The Leafs on the other hand, by the same measure, rank 5th by the same measure.

Of course, no one will praise the Leafs drafting efforts, but will always highlight the mythical Detroit model.

When most of your playersdon't get a whiff until 22 to 25 years old, going back to 06 doesn't tell you much. You're only getting a 3 or 4 year sample size. Even then they've had some 20 goal guys, one of the top juniors, a guy ripping the AHL a new one, etc.

 

[Hugh Mongusbig]

A big part of that 20 year run was luck

The only reason they remained on top in the mid-late 2000's and into today (Though they aren't the cup contenders they once were) was because they got lucky with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. In the mid-late 90's the Devils, Avs and Stars were just as well run, drafted just as well and just as successful at the Red Wings, but those teams didn't get as lucky so they've all had to go through down and rebuilding phases while the Red Wings remained on top.

Both Datsyuk and Zetterberg only played 45 games last season, as they both missed half the year with injuries and the Wings still made the playoffs.... Do you think the Leafs would be sniffing the playoffs with Kessel and JVR both gone for half a season? LOL The Leafs can't even sniff the playoffs with both star players in the line up. Detroit is a very deep team. Its not just Z and Pav carrying that team anymore. Z and Pav are two of the very best 2-way players in the game and they don't even kill penalties for Detroit any longer.

Were they lucky to get Z and Pav? Sure, any club would be lucky to get them. But at what point do you acknowledge that it isn't just luck, how they manage to find elite players that others routinely pass on? They seem to be able to find players in the draft that turn out far above popular projections.... Lidstrom, Homer, Z, Pav, now Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, etc...

JVR 25yo 21G 2nd overall pick $4.25M
Kessel 27 yo 19G 5th overall pick $8.0M
combined 40G (-30) on season at a cost of $12.25M in cap space

Tatar 24yo 21G 60th pick $2.75M
Nyquist 25yo 19G 121st pick $950K
combined 40G (+3) on season at a cost of $3.7M in cap space

Detroit is just a well run hockey club, I don't think luck has a lot to do with it.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

A big part of that 20 year run was luck

The only reason they remained on top in the mid-late 2000's and into today (Though they aren't the cup contenders they once were) was because they got lucky with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. In the mid-late 90's the Devils, Avs and Stars were just as well run, drafted just as well and just as successful at the Red Wings, but those teams didn't get as lucky so they've all had to go through down and rebuilding phases while the Red Wings remained on top.

I don't know if I'd so far as to outright call it luck.

Having the top scout in all of all of Sweden and getting in on the Russian factor long before many other teams were major factors. Through the 90s they were also set up by being a terrible team for so many years and draft high just like Chicago or Pittsburgh in recent years.

What has kept them going in recent seasons is largely due to hitting unexpected homeruns on Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall over 3 drafts in the late 90s.

Wings do have a good development system but both Datsyuk and Zetterberg were already looking like they'd be darn good players before they even hit North America so good chance they would have done well anywhere they went.

 

[Swayze*]

A big part of that 20 year run was luck

The only reason they remained on top in the mid-late 2000's and into today (Though they aren't the cup contenders they once were) was because they got lucky with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. In the mid-late 90's the Devils, Avs and Stars were just as well run, drafted just as well and just as successful at the Red Wings, but those teams didn't get as lucky so they've all had to go through down and rebuilding phases while the Red Wings remained on top.

Dude

Why do you have to argue every time

20 straight years and you're calling it luck???

My god

 

[Hugh Mongusbig]

Dude

Why do you have to argue every time

20 straight years and you're calling it luck???

My god

23 soon to be 24.

I suppose having 1 coach since 2006, compared to 5 different head coaches for the Leafs is all luck too?

Detroit is just a well run hockey club.

 

[pooleboy]

Detroit is often referred to as the world class model for developing draft picks. If Holland,Kadri, Reilly and Gardnier were in the Red wings system would they be on the big team or on the farm? I realize two of the four I mentioned we didn't draft.

all of those players would be. Id argue that even Leivo would be playing with the Red Wings as well as Granberg.

 

[pooleboy]

I would argue that having players like Yzerman (4th overall), Lindstrom and Federov really played dividens to Detroit still being a very successful team. Yzerman in particular is like a Toews, all heart and would get guys up and playing hard... its contagious, players follow players like that. Yes you can have lazier/ish players like kessel but you need a stud at the top who will do whatever it takes to win, thats what we need, tank get a top player (mcdavid?) and have him lead us into the next decade as well as pushing players ot be better and showing the rookies how to be successful.

Detroit is still getting dividens from Yzerman teaching the likes of Datsyuk and Zetterberg and they will teach the younger players and its a contagious process, we just need to find our Yzerman, AND LOL @ anyone who says Sundin was that.

 

[TimoneX]

I think that's right. The leafs lack quality on ice leadership/positive role models IMO. Phaneuf with a "C" on his sweater was always a head scratcher for me.

 

[Joey Hoser]

I would argue that having players like Yzerman (4th overall), Lindstrom and Federov really played dividens to Detroit still being a very successful team. Yzerman in particular is like a Toews, all heart and would get guys up and playing hard... its contagious, players follow players like that. Yes you can have lazier/ish players like kessel but you need a stud at the top who will do whatever it takes to win, thats what we need, tank get a top player (mcdavid?) and have him lead us into the next decade as well as pushing players ot be better and showing the rookies how to be successful.

Detroit is still getting dividens from Yzerman teaching the likes of Datsyuk and Zetterberg and they will teach the younger players and its a contagious process, we just need to find our Yzerman, AND LOL @ anyone who says Sundin was that.

If we wanted to follow the Red Wings "model" step one is to bring in Babcock and have him convince Kessel to play two-way hockey like Bowman did with Yzerman.

Step two is draft the best defenceman since Orr in a late round that doesn't even exist anymore.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

I think that's right. The leafs lack quality on ice leadership/positive role models IMO. Phaneuf with a "C" on his sweater was always a head scratcher for me.

Well somebody has to wear the C. A leader also needs the pieces to lead. Even the best captain in the world could only do so much with the weak center group we've got, underwhelming top 4 and until very recently Carlyle making questionable coaching decisions.

Guys like Toews, Stevie Y, Messier wouldn't be regarded as such great leaders if they didn't have elite talents to actually lead.

Phaneuf might not be the best captain but he was the only choice we've had.

 

[Steve]

Scouting and drafting is 70% of development. The other 30% is patience.

The Leafs have neither.

Food for thought, the last quality (not perennial allstar) player the leafs Drafted and Developed was Tomas Kaberle

 

[TimoneX]

Well somebody has to wear the C. A leader also needs the pieces to lead. Even the best captain in the world could only do so much with the weak center group we've got, underwhelming top 4 and until very recently Carlyle making questionable coaching decisions.

Guys like Toews, Stevie Y, Messier wouldn't be regarded as such great leaders if they didn't have elite talents to actually lead.

Phaneuf might not be the best captain but he was the only choice we've had.

Not sure that I agree with the bolded. Guys like Toews, Yzerman, Sakic, Messier...etc are natural leaders IMO and I think would've stood out as such even on a team of scrubs. I don't think it's just about winning or losing, you watch some of the best captains in history and it's how they respond to adversity that makes them stand out. Yzerman could barely walk properly in his twilight, but he'd still put his team on his back at crunch time. I don's see Phaneuf as having that character. To be fair, I'm not sure who I'd choose to wear the C in his stead.

The Leafs have some things to work out.