Developing the right way.

[Bluelines]

Detroit is often referred to as the world class model for developing draft picks. If Holland,Kadri, Reilly and Gardnier were in the Red wings system would they be on the big team or on the farm? I realize two of the four I mentioned we didn't draft.

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[613Leafer]

Hard to compare expected development time of top 10 picks like Rielly/Kadri to Detroits late 1st rounders and other picks. Top 10 picks are generally much closer to NHL ready than the guys that Detroit typically drafts. Even Holland/Gardiner were mid-1st rounders, and their development time was pretty similar to a guy like Sheahan (drafted 21st OA by Detroit in 2010).

A better comparison would be guys like Percy, Brown, Bibeau, Leivo, etc. All drafted outside the top 20. Ive seen posters on this site and other sites pencil Bibeau in as the backup goalie next season for example, but IMO he could easily easily benefit from at least another full season, probably 2 full seasons in the AHL. Brown as well.

Thats where Detroit does a good job. Taking 2nd/3rd/etc round picks, and developing them over 3-4 years in the AHL as opposed to just a year or two.

 

[Al14]

Detroit has had the luxury of having a pretty stacked team the last few years. That means they have limited space to fit their prospects onto the big team! In another few years, when they start to really thin out, their prospects will make the move to the big team sooner!

That's my theory, but, it may not be a good one!

 

[Pucker77]

Detroit is often referred to as the world class model for developing draft picks. If Holland,Kadri, Reilly and Gardnier were in the Red wings system would they be on the big team or on the farm? I realize two of the four I mentioned we didn't draft.

Detroit makes it a mission that their players MUST perform in the AHL before they are allowed to play regularly (not counting injury call ups) for the NHL team.

For the most part Kadri, Holland, and Gardiner have all excelled at the AHL level. Kadri had 41 poijts in 44 games his last full season, Holland was a beast in production, and Gardiner posted some good numbers as well.

With that said, in Detroits model, Morgan Reilly would be in the AHL and would have played Juniors last season. Jake Gardiner's rookie year for the Leafs would have probably been in the AHL if he played for Detroit. And this would probably be Peter Hollands rookie year in the NHL had he gone through Detroits system.

The only person we have done a similar development with is probably Kadri. He toiled in the AHL for a couple years, had a few call ups to get the taste of NHL hockey, but didn't become a full time NHLer until he was 21-22. And even when he finally made the team they still sheltered his minutes by giving him offensive draws and time against other teams weaker lines.

Somebody said that once Detroit "really starts to thin out" that players will be entered quicker. I understand the reasoning behind that, but I genuinely believe that as long as Ken Holland is in charge that players will have to earn their spot on the team and show their dedication by grinding out the long bus rides in the AHL.

 

[Pucker77]

Detroits system is a great model for 2 reasons.

1) It makes playing for the NHL team a reward. If you do what your coaches say and perform well, they will give you time with the big club.

And 2) it makes players not take the NHL for granted. A lot of kids make the NHL at 18, 19, or 20 and never spend a day in the AHL, but also never truly reach their potential. By making the AHL a required experience players will work hard to get a call up and once they see how wonderful life is in the NHL they will become more determined to never get sent down and have to ride the bus.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Detroit uses the AHL to shape their players into their system. They learn how The Wings kill penalties, set up power plays, how their break out system is constructed, how the right winger should behave when the left winger do this or that etc. They prepare their young players for what is expected from them once they are ready for the NHL.

We have still not yet started to do this despite all the talk about a better working relationship between the Leafs and the Marlies.

Then they also have veterans with leadership qualities and who are dedicated 2-way players in Zetterberg, Kronwall and Datsyuk on the team to help the young ones along.

Who do we have? Kessel, Phaneuf and Lupul? Yeah, must be great to be a young unproven player to come up and find no one to look at who looks like they know what they are doing.

 

[Stats01]

Detroit is often referred to as the world class model for developing draft picks. If Holland,Kadri, Reilly and Gardnier were in the Red wings system would they be on the big team or on the farm? I realize two of the four I mentioned we didn't draft.

First and foremost what the Wings do better than the Leafs is they keep their 2nd-3rd-4th rounders for the most part. Secondly, they keep those 2nd-3rd-4th rounders and are patient with them, they develop them. It's not a big secret they have against everyone else they're just a smart organization.

The Leafs could do exactly what Detroit does, but obviously over the years the reason we're where we are and they're where they are is because our organization/ownership seems way too impatient to do what Detroit does. The Bolland trade is a prime example of it. Instead of trading 3 picks to get him, Detroit would've kept those picks and developed those players...we no longer have Bolland and the picks..

In the case of Kadri, Holland, etc. it all depends really on the player. All I know is Detroit would've been patient with all of them. Gardiner would've been in Grand Rapids a lot longer than he was on the Marlies. Gardiner looks like a lost puppy most of the time lately...again development loss could be a reason why. Playing on the Marlies and in the AHL should be a requirement for all prospects outside of generational talents like McDavid.

Another thing Detroit has is once their own draft picks become NHL regulars they can reinforce what they learned to the new young players. So not only are the prospects learning the system in the minors, it's being reinforced with the NHL veterans. This is a prime model where draft and development is the engine of the Wings. I can only wish the Leafs were like this...We are so far from this sort of thing.

It seems like all we do is look at a kid in training camp and if he sticks out we say hey kid welcome to the NHL! Even Rielly as good as he is, could probably use some time in the minors. Every single prospect should be spending time in the minors. If you're not a Crosby or a McDavid you should be on the Marlies learning.

 

[Hugh Mongusbig]

Detroit's and Ken Holland's player development philosophy can be summed up in the following: The NHL is not the place for on-the-job training..... that is what the AHL club is for.

Detroit wants their young kids to learn how to be every-day professional hockey players in the AHL, rather than at the NHL level. Nothing is given, it must be earned. Roster players have the job, unless you take it from them. Over-ripen the player in the AHL, so when they do finally get their shot at the NHL, they run with the opportunity, rather than struggle.

Detroit also has a tendancy to draft the guys that have slipped down the draft for whatever reason.... these guys tend to either boom or bust. Allowing them extra time in the AHL gives them a better chance at turning out to be a boom, rather than a bust. For years, Holland had a habit of trading down on draft day. Instead of taking one late 1st round pick, Holland would trade that pick for two early 2nd round picks. Figuring once you get outside the top 10 players say.... is there really that big a difference in quality between a late 1st rounder and an early 2nd rounder? not really, so often times Holland would choose the two 2nd round pics rather than the single late 1st round pick. Again, using the one of the two 2nd round picks to go after one of those high upside boom/bust type players that other teams didn't want to take a risk on. If he didn't pan out, you usually had the other pick, who was a safer type pick to fall back on.... If they do pan out, you found yourself another Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Nyquist, etc... late round steal.

 

[Trapper]

Developing the right way = drafting the right way.
Putting ourselves in a position to draft the pieces we can't get, putting ourselves in position to pick 10 times in 7 rounds and not 5, putting ourselves in position to choose players that have skill,compete and all around game. Not just 1 without the others.

Say what you want about Boston, they might make some head scratching trades but they stay true to their vision, true to their culture no matter what.
They identify which players have the things I listed above and part ways with those that don't. Popular/smart or unpopular.
They expect players to bring multiple skills to the team.
The Leafs are happy if someone can provide just one. Even if it's not on a regular basis.

 

[silentbob37*]

Another thing the Wings do is draft players who fit. They draft players who good with the puck and have good hockey IQ's, those are the attributes they value most. They'll help with your skating and skill skills and shooting etc.. but they play a smart, possesion style of hockey so if you can't handle the puck or make smart decisisons with it they don't want you. Because they draft players with similar skill sets and have done that for 20 years, their AHL and NHL teams can play the same way, which allows them develop players for the roles they are best suited for.

While the Leafs have drafted well for the last decade or so, they don't have this kind.....mandate, largely because they don't have a "Maple Leaf brand of hockey". Nylander is fast and skilled, Gauthier is big. Schenn was physical while Rielly is smart and agile etc... They need to figure out what kind of team they want to be, what 1-2 attributes they value move and draft keyed to/around that (and if some current guys don't fit, trade them for different futures).

Detroit's and Ken Holland's player development philosophy can be summed up in the following: The NHL is not the place for on-the-job training..... that is what the AHL club is for.

Detroit wants their young kids to learn how to be every-day professional hockey players in the AHL, rather than at the NHL level. Nothing is given, it must be earned. Roster players have the job, unless you take it from them. Over-ripen the player in the AHL, so when they do finally get their shot at the NHL, they run with the opportunity, rather than struggle.

Detroit also has a tendancy to draft the guys that have slipped down the draft for whatever reason.... these guys tend to either boom or bust. Allowing them extra time in the AHL gives them a better chance at turning out to be a boom, rather than a bust. For years, Holland had a habit of trading down on draft day. Instead of taking one late 1st round pick, Holland would trade that pick for two early 2nd round picks. Figuring once you get outside the top 10 players say.... is there really that big a difference in quality between a late 1st rounder and an early 2nd rounder? not really, so often times Holland would choose the two 2nd round pics rather than the single late 1st round pick. Again, using the one of the two 2nd round picks to go after one of those high upside boom/bust type players that other teams didn't want to take a risk on. If he didn't pan out, you usually had the other pick, who was a safer type pick to fall back on.... If they do pan out, you found yourself another Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Nyquist, etc... late round steal.

Lets not pretend that the WIngs are mythical team that pulls amazing players at will. Nyquist is good but he is not Datsyuk or Zetterberg. When those guys are gone (hell, maybe today) the Wings lack that top tier they used to have that made them one of the top teams.

 

[In It 2 Winnik]

Another thing the Wings do is draft players who fit. They draft players who good with the puck and have good hockey IQ's, those are the attributes they value most. They'll help with your skating and skill skills and shooting etc.. but they play a smart, possesion style of hockey so if you can't handle the puck or make smart decisisons with it they don't want you. Because they draft players with similar skill sets and have done that for 20 years, their AHL and NHL teams can play the same way, which allows them develop players for the roles they are best suited for.

While the Leafs have drafted well for the last decade or so, they don't have this kind.....mandate, largely because they don't have a "Maple Leaf brand of hockey". Nylander is fast and skilled, Gauthier is big. Schenn was physical while Rielly is smart and agile etc... They need to figure out what kind of team they want to be, what 1-2 attributes they value move and draft keyed to/around that (and if some current guys don't fit, trade them for different futures)



Lets not pretend that the WIngs are mythical team that pulls amazing players at will. Nyquist is good but he is not Datsyuk or Zetterberg. When those guys are gone (hell, maybe today) the Wings lack that top tier they used to have that made them one of the top teams.

We tried that. "Truculence." Burke tried to do that with us. Which has not worked out.

An example is Brad Ross in the 2nd. Why? Cause he had truculence and now is looking like a bust.

Just my .02.

 

[Joey Hoser]

Detroit makes it a mission that their players MUST perform in the AHL before they are allowed to play regularly (not counting injury call ups) for the NHL team.

Is this actually the case? Do we know that this is a policy?

Because they don't draft high enough to acquire teenagers who can play in the NHL.

Policy or not they haven't had a choice in decades. How many late first-rounders play as teenagers? Not very many.

They haven't drafted anybody in my memory who you could point to and say "On another team, they'd be in the NHL at 18/19".

 

[ConnorTO]

an alternate universe where kadri some how gets on the wings?

boy...

 

[silentbob37*]

We tried that. "Truculence." Burke tried to do that with us. Which has not worked out.

An example is Brad Ross in the 2nd. Why? Cause he had truculence and now is looking like a bust.

Just my .02.

Did Burke really try it? Its not like Kessel or Lupul or Bozak or Versteeg etc... were/are really Truclent players. HE talked a good game but never really went with it. The Ducks won a cup playing that style of hockey, the Bruins won a cup and got to a final. The Kings won two cups being a pretty aggressive physical team (more relentless then overly aggressive). Its wrong to think you CAN'T win size and "truculence" being two of your teams defining attributes.

I also wonder if the management should to atke the fans into account in this. Toronto is a pretty blue collar town when it comes to athletes. We, as a whole, tend to like the hard working, tough guy over the really skilled soft guy, in every sport. Should that be taken into account? The Leafs are our team right? Should they not play a style of hockey that a majority of fans like/prefer?

 

[Joey Hoser]

We tried that. "Truculence." Burke tried to do that with us. Which has not worked out.

An example is Brad Ross in the 2nd. Why? Cause he had truculence and now is looking like a bust.

Just my .02.

Well there's some separation between Colby Armstrong and Mike Komisarek vs. Corey Perry and Chris Pronger don't you think?

I think that probably had something to do with it.

 

[AustonMitchWilly]

Naz followed the detroit model. He's blossoming just fine.

 

[Tak7]

Is this actually the case? Do we know that this is a policy?

Because they don't draft high enough to acquire teenagers who can play in the NHL.

Policy or not they haven't had a choice in decades. How many late first-rounders play as teenagers? Not very many.

They haven't drafted anybody in my memory who you could point to and say "On another team, they'd be in the NHL at 18/19".

It's a good point.

As much as people like to talk about their developmental process, what happens if hypothetically both Zetterberg & Datsyuk hang them them in the summer? Lots of good pieces coming through, but is there a superstar ready to go?

What a lot of people also don't mention when discussing the Detroit model, is the depth they have at the NHL level. They've got the sort of depth on their NHL team which means they can afford to leave players down in the minors for a little extra seasoning. It's been that way there for a while now. In Toronto for example, the team can't afford to lose a Lupul, Holland, an Komarov at the same time because they don't have the depth.

You send the Leafs NHL roster to Detroit, and I think that farm team gets tapped into a hell of a lot more than they do now.

It's not a bad thing - it's good management, and they are able to be patient with their youth because of their depth. But it shows you a team with a plan & a philosophy. Here, there isn't one.

 

[Joey Hoser]

As much as people like to talk about their developmental process, what happens if hypothetically both Zetterberg & Datsyuk hang them them in the summer? Lots of good pieces coming through, but is there a superstar ready to go?

This largely it.

They lived off drafting those guys and the best defenceman since Orr in late rounds, and having their choice out of the free agent pool every year(which used to actually have good players in it, who would take a discount to win) because success perpetuates further success.

I think their "model" is highly overrated and not really a model you can emulate. How do you even do that? Plan to leave your prospects who you draft after #20 in the AHL? Draft a generational defenceman in a round 9 that doesn't even exist anymore? That's not much of a plan.

Once Zetterburg and Datsyuk are gone, they become just another team IMO.

 

[-DeMo-]

there is no right way to developing players, as everyone is different, to the guy saying Morgan Rielly would still be in the AHL is dead wrong, are you also telling me Trouba/Lindholm would be there too? these guys have already shown to excel in the NHL they would not be in the AHL. some players need to be pushed, some need to be babied, some will never make it no matter how you treat them and others will make it regardless of how the team develops him. there's no such thing as the "Right" way.

 

[666]

there is no right way to developing players, as everyone is different, to the guy saying Morgan Rielly would still be in the AHL is dead wrong, are you also telling me Trouba/Lindholm would be there too? these guys have already shown to excel in the NHL they would not be in the AHL. some players need to be pushed, some need to be babied, some will never make it no matter how you treat them and others will make it regardless of how the team develops him. there's no such thing as the "Right" way.

This is a good post. Most of the posts here don't know what they are talking about. To put it as simple as possible, the proper way to develop a player (or a child for that matter) is to put them in to an environment which is best for them, and to deal with them in that environment in a way that's best for their development.

For those of you who still don't get it. There is nothing wrong with putting an 18 year old into the NHL as long as you set their environment and expectations properly.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

Why do we always have to pick either a hands of stone plug or a non-physical skill guy?? Is it not possible to find a guy that plays with skill and can go into the tough areas of the ice?

I don't understand why it has to be so black and white.

 

[Stephen]

When you look at the quality of the Red Wings prospect pool, you can't actually separate it from what goes on at all levels of their organization. You have to look at it as a continual succession plan with an established way of doing things, a stable veteran leadership, an apprenticeship program and regular job openings.

It's not so much where a guy like Jake Gardiner or Nazem Kadri would be in Detroit, it's the fact that they would have been molded very differently in the Detroit system. Gardiner likely would have worked with Lidstrom or Kronwall, who worked with Lidstrom, and been instructed in the Detroit school. Kadri would have had his eyeballs on Zetterberg and Datsyuk and would have developed based on learning their approach to the game. Zetterberg and Datysuk learned from Yzerman and company, so there's a continual base of knowledge and success to draw from.

In Toronto, it seems like all attempts to build the Marlies into anything resembling a feeder system has not worked out because once you graduate to the Leafs, it's a free for all. You come up, rot on the bench, or else there's no credible veteran leadership, our captain is a moron and our superstar is the butt of all jokes. What little veteran leadership we have comes in the form of one year rentals at near league minimum. There's no in-house success, no traditions, nothing.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

Detroit is often referred to as the world class model for developing draft picks. If Holland,Kadri, Reilly and Gardnier were in the Red wings system would they be on the big team or on the farm? I realize two of the four I mentioned we didn't draft.

All of Kadri, Holland, Gardiner had extended stints in the AHL. In the case of Gardiner he also was a bit older coming out of the NCAA. Some will say that he was mistreated I think a lot of the problem if fans overvalued him based on his absolute best points. He has all the physical tools but has always lacked the toolbox.

Detroit hasn't had a 5th overall pick like Rielly in a very long time so he's a different story. AHL wasn't an option for him last season.

Leafs like Detroit are being patient with their prospects. Witness Leivo, Brown, Percy, Nylander, Carrick well giving some tastes of the NHL from time to time.

Like Detroit does/has done we brought in a bunch of veteran placeholders to allow patience with the youngsters listed by signing guys like Winnik, Santo, Robidas. Then soon enough we'll start to move on from guys like these as youngsters emerge like Detroit did with Bertuzzi and will soon do with Clearly, Quincey, etc.

 

[Tak7]

This largely it.

They lived off drafting those guys and the best defenceman since Orr in late rounds, and having their choice out of the free agent pool every year(which used to actually have good players in it, who would take a discount to win) because success perpetuates further success.

I think their "model" is highly overrated and not really a model you can emulate. How do you even do that? Plan to leave your prospects who you draft after #20 in the AHL? Draft a generational defenceman in a round 9 that doesn't even exist anymore? That's not much of a plan.

Once Zetterburg and Datsyuk are gone, they become just another team IMO.

100% agree.

I also think that's exactly why Babcock is looking to leave - I think he's using the ability of foresight to realize that once he looses one or two of his key veteran pieces, that thing might fall down like a cheap house of cards.

Also - since 2006, Detroit have been pretty much average when it comes to draft success (measured based on games played by players drafted).

The Leafs on the other hand, by the same measure, rank 5th by the same measure.

Of course, no one will praise the Leafs drafting efforts, but will always highlight the mythical Detroit model.

 

[Hugh Mongusbig]

Detroit does a good job at player development for sure, but they have their fair share of players that have underwhelmed also. Look no further than their current D-corps with the likes of Kindl and Smith. Both first rounders that Detroit had a lot of hope for, but so far have not lived up to expectations. Smith especially,who was highly regarded coming out of college, who at the University of Minnesota, was the nation's leading scorer on defense with 15 goals, 52 points and 1.27 points-per-game average... one of 10 finalists for the 2010 Hobey Baker Memorial Award ... named to the NCAA All-West Regional Team ... named WCHA Defensive Player of the Year ... named to the All-WCHA First Team... lots of other awards, etc... has underwhelmed everybody since hitting the NHL.

As far as Kindl, a 1st round pick from 05, it looks like he has finally played his way out of the lineup as he was recently replaced by fresh out of the AHL rookie Xavier Ouellet, a 2nd round pick from 2011.