Detroit's Best Defensemen This Season (2015-16)

[Frk It]

Quincey over Dekeyser... based on???

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

when factoring in age, cap hit, contract length, expectation, potential and actual impact on games smith had a pretty solid year, its not hype, its just fact

It's actually opinion.

And of all the factors you listed, the one that really matters is actual impact on games.

 

[DanZ]

Smith had a solid year. The hate for him is unwarranted.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

It's actually opinion.

And of all the factors you listed, the one that really matters is actual impact on games.

its not opinion

do you expect more out of Crosby or a AA?

as if salary and cap hit have nothing to do with it, of course they do, the more a player is paid the more is expected from that player, thats business and the game is a business

i expect Kronwall, Green and JE to be out 3 best dmen because they're paid to be our 3 best dmen

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

When factoring in zone starts, quality of competition, ability to actually play defense then his year really wasn't solid at all, especially since he couldn't stay in the lineup.

And I swear we need to start tracking a stat like "Unforced icings" and "Icings that lead to goals"

we really should count that stat, we should also count bad passes, poor shot selection, missed hits, weak hits, missed assignments, we should clock their avg skating speed to see if they can be beat easily to the puck/ability to recover, poor positioning in front of the net, weak positioning in front of the net, i mean get real

as far as lineup decisions
- those who made the decisions still lost so how correct were they really?

 

[Frk It]

Thought this was interesting (from article today on KFQ's future):

"Going into the season I had a meeting with Blash right away and it wasn't what I really wanted to hear, but I feel like I changed his mind with my play and moved up in his eyes," Quincey said. "My goal was always to come back and play with Danny and shut down first lines. And at the end of the year when they needed it most that's where I was.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2016/05/kyle_quincey_uncertain_of_futu.html

 

[Henkka]

Here's a table with everyone's rankings so far. (Click on the picture for a popup.) My apologies if I incorrectly transcribed (or missed) anyone's rankings.

View attachment 89983

In text form, here's a quick summary of the data:

#1 - 1.61 (1 to 3): DeKeyser
#2 - 1.72 (1 to 3): Green
#3 - 3.78 (2 to 6): Quincey
#4 - 4.31 (3 to 6): Marchenko
#5 - 4.36 (1 to 7): Smith
#6 - 5.56 (4 to 6): Kronwall
#7 - 6.67 (4 to 7): Ericsson

MOD Kronwall and Ercisson ABSOLUTELY NOT were our two worst defencemen.

Makes me very sad to see this kind of things.

They had bad seasons on their levels, but still were better than many others. If guys don't meet what their expectations were, it doesn't mean they were worst.

One thing I agree, DeKeyser was clearly the best.

 

[obey86]

. Kronwall and Ercisson ABSOLUTELY NOT were our two worst defencemen.

Makes me very sad to see this kind of things.

They had bad seasons on their levels, but still were better than many others. If guys don't meet what their expectations were, it doesn't mean they were worst.

One thing I agree, DeKeyser was clearly the best.

Try again. Kronwall didn't just have a really bad season by his standards. He had a really bad season by league wide standards.

 

[ashenhigh]

DeKeyser
Green
Quincey
Smith
Kronwall
Marchenko
Ericsson

- Smith was so under appreciated this year.
- Kronner had a really bad year
- Ericsson has proven to be the liability we all thought he would be come
- Green didn't hit the offense plateau he is capable of, but part of that I blame on our terrible PP coach last year, Green should be our #1 PPQB without any doubts.

 

[PelagicJoe]

The Smith hype lives on.

I don't get it either. He was awesome for three playoff games, and invisible during the regular season.

 

[Some Random Guy]

I don't get it either. He was awesome for three playoff games, and invisible during the regular season.

You mean pre-season. Everyone knows hockey starts after April.

 

[Bench]

when factoring in age, cap hit, contract length, expectation, potential and actual impact on games smith had a pretty solid year, its not hype, its just fact

Why would age, cap hit, expectation, and potential influence who is best? Those are all things unrelated to actual performance.

My big issue is you can't be the best defender getting the soft minutes. Anyone who says he's it is giving him a pat on the back for handling the secondary jobs while Kronwall and DK attempted to keep the damn team above water.

My second issue is even with the minutes he got he falls squarely into serviceable. I don't see any big moments of him being a secret, age 27, Kilingberg waiting to bust out on the top pair with elite offense or defense.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

its not opinion

do you expect more out of Crosby or a AA?

as if salary and cap hit have nothing to do with it, of course they do, the more a player is paid the more is expected from that player, thats business and the game is a business

i expect Kronwall, Green and JE to be out 3 best dmen because they're paid to be our 3 best dmen

It is an opinion actually.

Opinion versus fact is something that's really not really up for debate.

 

[Flowah]

Kronwall and Ercisson ABSOLUTELY NOT were our two worst defencemen.

Makes me very sad to see this kind of things.

They had bad seasons on their levels, but still were better than many others. If guys don't meet what their expectations were, it doesn't mean they were worst.

One thing I agree, DeKeyser was clearly the best.

Who was the worst d-man if it wasn't Ericsson?

 

[obey86]

Why would age, cap hit, expectation, and potential influence who is best? Those are all things unrelated to actual performance.

My big issue is you can't be the best defender getting the soft minutes. Anyone who says he's it is giving him a pat on the back for handling the secondary jobs while Kronwall and DK attempted to keep the damn team above water.

My second issue is even with the minutes he got he falls squarely into serviceable. I don't see any big moments of him being a secret, age 27, Kilingberg waiting to bust out on the top pair with elite offense or defense.

A couple things about the hard/soft minutes argument that never add up.

#1 Even though someone playing "hard minutes" is hypothetically playing against better players, they are also playing WITH better players. It's not like Kronwall was consistently playing against top lines with Drew Miller. He was playing against top lines, often with the Red Wings better players. That more than evens things out.

#2, There's nothing impressive in the least about playing tough minutes if you struggle badly in those tough minutes. They could put me out there and I could play tough minutes and suck. That's not impressive. They could put Brendan Smith out there playing tough minutes and he could suck like Kronwall did last year. Playing "tough minutes" is only a feather in the cap if you can actually perform in those tough minutes. Kronwall couldn't. So why are we saying him playing tough minutes was some sort of positive? If they switched places Smith could do the same exact thing Kronwall did, play "tough minutes" and struggle. If Kronwall and Smith switched places it's likely that Smith would perform worse and Kronwall would perform better. So how does who's playing the tough or easy minutes tell us anything worthwhile?

 

[SirloinUB]

Who was the worst d-man if it wasn't Ericsson?

I didn't think Marchenko was that great. Really I think he and Ericsson are pretty interchangeable. One is young and a new name, the other is old and been around so I believe that greatly influences perceptions. Ill say this, I think our entire group is capable of finding success across the league. The Problem is aside from Kronwall, Green and DDK, we basically have a pile of #4-6 dmen.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

It is an opinion actually.

Opinion versus fact is something that's really not really up for debate.

ok fair enough, you do not expect more out of the players in pro sports who get paid the most in comparison to those who're paid less.

got it

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

ok fair enough, you do not expect more out of the players in pro sports who get paid the most in comparison to those who're paid less.

got it

If that's really what you think I was saying, I'm just going to back away slowly from the conversation at this point.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Why would age, cap hit, expectation, and potential influence who is best? Those are all things unrelated to actual performance.

cap hit and expectation have an influence when assessing a players performance, because your expectation influences your assessment

i expect more of sidney crosby then i do john scott, i mean yes i suppose that is my opinion, then again i have never heard anybody say they dont have different expectations for one player to the next

 

[njx9]

I didn't think Marchenko was that great. Really I think he and Ericsson are pretty interchangeable. One is young and a new name, the other is old and been around so I believe that greatly influences perceptions. Ill say this, I think our entire group is capable of finding success across the league. The Problem is aside from Kronwall, Green and DDK, we basically have a pile of #4-6 dmen.

Absolutely. If all of our guys were paid and got ice-time like the 2nd and 3rd pairing guys that they are, I don't think there would be many complaints. Unfortunately, they're almost all playing and getting paid more than they're worth.

That said, there's no way Kronwall is anything better than a 3rd pairing guy, at this point (and I think he's regularly worse). Whether you think it's age or injuries, he's incapable of playing well enough to get more than bottom minutes on basically any defense in the league without making it noticeably worse. He's ploddingly slow, he can't pass, and he can't/won't hit, and some combination of those three things prevents him from doing just about anything at an above-replacement level on the ice.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

If that's really what you think I was saying, I'm just going to back away slowly from the conversation at this point.

sorry but you're choosing to argue semantics whether its fact or an opinion instead of answering why if you do, seem to think expectation of performance isnt influenced by salary/cap hit, etc like i said

 

[SirloinUB]

Absolutely. If all of our guys were paid and got ice-time like the 2nd and 3rd pairing guys that they are, I don't think there would be many complaints. Unfortunately, they're almost all playing and getting paid more than they're worth.

That said, there's no way Kronwall is anything better than a 3rd pairing guy, at this point (and I think he's regularly worse). Whether you think it's age or injuries, he's incapable of playing well enough to get more than bottom minutes on basically any defense in the league without making it noticeably worse. He's ploddingly slow, he can't pass, and he can't/won't hit, and some combination of those three things prevents him from doing just about anything at an above-replacement level on the ice.

Yea, 55 certainly had a rough year and if things continue I would agree with your assessment. I'm just not sure I believe he won't rebound if he can find his health again. Hell If healthy, I still think he can be a first unit PPQB and solid #2/3 type of guy. Then again, that might be asking a lot for a 35 year old with knee problems.

But you're right based strictly on last season he belongs in the group with everyone outside of Green and DDK.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Quincey over Dekeyser... based on???

Based on the fact that Danny d is better in every single zone and usually carries Quincey actually

 

[njx9]

Yea, 55 certainly had a rough year and if things continue I would agree with your assessment. I'm just not sure I believe he won't rebound if he can find his health again. Hell If healthy, I still think he can be a first unit PPQB and solid #2/3 type of guy. Then again, that might be asking a lot for a 35 year old with knee problems.

I really, really hope you're right. If not for the sake of our defense in general, I'd hate to see Kronwall end his career playing the way he did last year.

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

Looks like masses in here don't have any clue what they are analyzing.

We are analyzing the play of the defenseman, which involves more than sitting your ass in front of the net.