Detroit's Best Defensemen This Season (2015-16)

[SpookyTsuki]

I didn't think Marchenko was that great. Really I think he and Ericsson are pretty interchangeable. One is young and a new name, the other is old and been around so I believe that greatly influences perceptions. Ill say this, I think our entire group is capable of finding success across the league. The Problem is aside from Kronwall, Green and DDK, we basically have a pile of #4-6 dmen.

Marchenko doesn't make crucial giveaways that almost guarantees a goal for the opposing team. But other then that. They are pretty similar

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

sorry but you're choosing to argue semantics whether its fact or an opinion instead of answering why if you do, seem to think expectation of performance isnt influenced by salary/cap hit, etc like i said

On some level, what you seem to be in disagreement about comes down to semantics. Because the question posed by the OP isn't about expectation of performance. It's about actual performance this year.

If I'm evaluating who the Red Wings best defensemen were this season, expectation, salary/cap hit, age, and contract length don't matter at all. I'm looking back on the season and making an assessment purely based on performance on the ice.

If the question is which defenseman was the biggest disappointment, then sure those factors (expectations, salary/cap hit, etc.) come into play.

 

[Bench]

On some level, what you seem to be in disagreement about comes down to semantics. Because the question posed by the OP isn't about expectation of performance. It's about actual performance this year.

If I'm evaluating who the Red Wings best defensemen were this season, expectation, salary/cap hit, age, and contract length don't matter at all. I'm looking back on the season and making an assessment purely based on performance on the ice.

If the question is which defenseman was the biggest disappointment, then sure those factors (expectations, salary/cap hit, etc.) come into play.

Thank you. You saved me the effort.

Contracts and such create biases but have no influence on performance. Example: Larkin was a far better value than Datsyuk this year, but not actually better.

In terms of the original question, Smith did not display near the performance to be labeled the top defender as more than a couple seem to be doing. And universally those same people are throwing an injured Kronwall under the bus.

If Smith is sincerely the best this team had, holy hell blow it up. It's over. Tank it out.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Thank you. You saved me the effort.

Contracts and such create biases but have no influence on performance. Example: Larkin was a far better value than Datsyuk this year, but not actually better.

In terms of the original question, Smith did not display near the performance to be labeled the top defender as more than a couple seem to be doing. And universally those same people are throwing an injured Kronwall under the bus.

If Smith is sincerely the best this team had, holy hell blow it up. It's over. Tank it out.

They're wrong about smith. But kronwall was horrible

 

[Bench]

They're wrong about smith. But kronwall was horrible

He's horrible the way Robidas was horrible when he was the #1 on Dallas. Not actually horrible but over his head. The solution is provide more help. Guess who isn't that help? Smith. So let's move on from the fantasy of when the kid was drafted and accept the reality.

The defense needs new bodies, period.

 

[14ari13]

Based on the fact that Danny d is better in every single zone and usually carries Quincey actually

Quincey looked terrible before DeKeyser made him look solid.

 

[Pavels Dog]

On some level, what you seem to be in disagreement about comes down to semantics. Because the question posed by the OP isn't about expectation of performance. It's about actual performance this year.

If I'm evaluating who the Red Wings best defensemen were this season, expectation, salary/cap hit, age, and contract length don't matter at all. I'm looking back on the season and making an assessment purely based on performance on the ice.

If the question is which defenseman was the biggest disappointment, then sure those factors (expectations, salary/cap hit, etc.) come into play.

Exactly.

Fact is also that as long as Smith plays this way, he will never get a contract similar to Ericsson/Kronwall/Green or what Dekeyser will get. So I don't see how it would help his case in this ranking. May as well rank Glendening as our best forward because he performed like a 4th liner, and have Zetterberg as our worst forward because he played like a 2nd/3rd liner.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Exactly.

Fact is also that as long as Smith plays this way, he will never get a contract similar to Ericsson/Kronwall/Green or what Dekeyser will get. So I don't see how it would help his case in this ranking. May as well rank Glendening as our best forward because he performed like a 4th liner, and have Zetterberg as our worst forward because he played like a 2nd/3rd liner.

just so we're all clear what stats, advanced stats and eye test measures are we using here, choosing to ignore and/or intentionally choosing to weigh more heavily to influence our desired outcome?

 

[Pavels Dog]

just so we're all clear what stats, advanced stats and eye test measures are we using here, choosing to ignore and/or intentionally choosing to weigh more heavily to influence our desired outcome?

I don't know, the same combination of stats and eye test NHL coaches and GMs use? Oh, I forgot that they're all wrong about him. Only the brilliant hockey minds of hfboards are able to decipher the analytics and see the greatness of Smith.

It's time to wake up to a simple fact: Brendan Smith is not a good hockey player.

 

[njx9]

He's horrible the way Robidas was horrible when he was the #1 on Dallas. Not actually horrible but over his head.

I don't buy this at all. Kronwall was too slow to everything, and passed no better than anyone else on the team (which is to say, poorly at best). He wasn't regularly able to get into passing lanes or adjust to the offense, he couldn't clear the front of the net, and he was a large part (the largest D, by TOI) of an anemic PP. He had an awful +/- compared to anyone else on the roster, let alone other defensemen, and while part of that is likely because of his PK time, a larger share of PK time didn't kill DDK's rating. The only measure by which Kronwall wasn't bad, IMO, this year, were his points, and I'd suggest that most of our defensemen could've equaled his 14 PP assists, if they'd been given the same amount of ice time.

Again, we can chalk it up to injuries if you'd like, but I don't see any way to argue that Kronwall just needed help this year. He wasn't very good. If you put him with any other competent players, he'd have been the anchor on the pairing. I sincerely hope he recovers next year, and that this was all just an aberration, but if he loses another step in the offseason, he should sit in the press box.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I don't know, the same combination of stats and eye test NHL coaches and GMs use? Oh, I forgot that they're all wrong about him. Only the brilliant hockey minds of hfboards are able to decipher the analytics and see the greatness of Smith.

It's time to wake up to a simple fact: Brendan Smith is not a good hockey player.

1. Those minds lost, I wouldnt think everything they say or do is gospel
2. Gms and coaches "can" be influenced or biased by personal relationships, history and contract, how many times have we heard that a team has to play player x because of his contract
3. I didnt ask what criteria "they" were using but what "you" had used so I can see those same stats and anyaltics for myself, perhaps it will change my opinion.

 

[Pavels Dog]

1. Those minds lost, I wouldnt think everything they say or do is gospel
2. Gms and coaches "can" be influenced or biased by personal relationships, history and contract, how many times have we heard that a team has to play player x because of his contract
3. I didnt ask what criteria "they" were using but what "you" had used so I can see those same stats and anyaltics for myself, perhaps it will change my opinion.

I watched every game so I know that Smith did not outplay any of our other defenders this year. That's the criteria. And the last thing that would ever change my mind about a player is advanced stats, they are completely useless when it comes to judging individual players.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I watched every game so I know that Smith did not outplay any of our other defenders this year. That's the criteria. And the last thing that would ever change my mind about a player is advanced stats, they are completely useless when it comes to judging individual players.

and so did I and so did a lot of other people, easily one can assume the vast majority on this board did as well and it looks like a lot of posters saw things differently and I am not about to rag on anyone for why that might be.

smith gets the short end of the stick around here so often when the fact is, our defense as a whole were not very good with some of them drastically failing more than others to meet expectation(which has been pointed out to me shouldnt influence ones assessment but understandably does)

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

1.) Green - I think he was our best D-man this year. Best offensively and sadly on a lot of nights our best defensively.

2.) DeKeyser - Not really happy with the stagnation/regression out of DK. Though I wish that Green and DeKeyser pairing got more of a chance and I think babysitting Quincey takes a toll on DeKeyser even if he is the man for the job. He was still our second best D-man.

3.) Smith was probably our third when he was actually on ice. Good fit in Blashill's system. Still is probably best for both parties that there is a parting of the ways.

4.)Quincey - has rounded into a stay at home guy, I still hope we move on from him this summer. Felt he got more physical this year which I enjoyed.

5.) Kronwall - really tough year, hope it is the injury and not just a full on decline.

6.) Marchenko - solid campaign, his foot speed is really a problem though and the league isn't going to get slower moving forward.

7.) Ericsson - I actually just think he is too banged up to really play anymore, the hip and hand injuries are just too much. Really an awful year.

8.) Kindl - While he was here he was horrific. Afraid to take a hit still, so glad he is gone.

 

[Nordic*]

Wow.

Looks like Kronwall lost 15 steps the last couple of years.

 

[BinCookin]

I rated all the D men for the first half the season.

Smith was the worst.

People have really moved him up. I think his 2nd half was better than his first. But our defense is so bad, that Smith moves up by default... its a pretty bad situation we have on D overall.

 

[newfy]

When factoring in zone starts, quality of competition, ability to actually play defense then his year really wasn't solid at all, especially since he couldn't stay in the lineup.

Well lets not completely make things up to fit our agenda. Based on advanced stats Smith definitely looks like one of, if not the wings top dman this year. A crosi relative of 15 is 20 higher than the next closest dman that wasnt his partner. The only guy close to him had much easier deployment and Smith is still ahead of him. A guy like Kronwall's advanced stats 8% more offensive zone starts and differnce in quality of competition do not make up for that big of a discrepancy in their numbers. Smith had a great year accroding to the advanced stats. Hes also a guy with a reputation of being bad and people hating him as a player. Its clear that people hold that reputation against him. People who watched him play and didnt blindly hate him based on reputation thought he had a solid year as one of detroits best dmen. The advanced stats back that up, if you wanted to have a leg to stand on you shouldnt have brought advanced stats in the equation.

Honestly the fact that you said he wasnt solid at all makes me wonder if you watched this season. Lots of people thought he was the best dman going at the time he was benched and thought it was ridiculous by Blashill. He came back in the playoffs and was definitely the wings best dman. I'm not goingt o hold getting benched by Blashill over him, this team always benches questionable players. Tatar for Cleary being one and Ericcson never being benched is pretty ridiculous as well.

He's horrible the way Robidas was horrible when he was the #1 on Dallas. Not actually horrible but over his head. The solution is provide more help. Guess who isn't that help? Smith. So let's move on from the fantasy of when the kid was drafted and accept the reality.

The defense needs new bodies, period.

So the same defense of the last few years with the addition of Green magically made Kronwalls play drop off that much? No Kronwall had himself and absolutey terrible season and it hurt the wings because when he was playing like a number one they didnt look too bad. Noone besides the Ericcson Kronwall pairing played worse than usual this year. Green and Smith as a pairing were probably an overall upgrade from seasons past,Kronwall and Ericcson (who has been falling off for a couple seasons) were the biggest reason the wings D looked so much worse than past years.

As for my rankings on overall play, not based on expectations...

Smith/Green/Dekeyser were my top 3. The fact that Smith got benched was BS from a rookie coach trying to look smarter than he is. Dekeyser hadnhis worst year yet but was still alright. Green moved the puck better than probably anyone since Rafalski.

Quincey. Hes solid doesnt do a whole lot to hurt or help

Marchenko/Kronwall. If given the same deployment Im sure Marchenko would look much worse than Kronwall but he didnt ever really do anything bone headed to hurt the wings or help them too much. He was just there. Kronwall had a down year big time by his standards. He stilled showed flashes though.

Ericcson. He was terrible this year, no way around it at all. Shouldve been benched but he has a big contract so theres no way management allows a rookie coach to pull that off

 

[SoupGuru]

MOD

I mean, really? We're honestly debating whether Smith had a super-fantastic year or just a really super good one?

He is not a good defenseman. He was not good this year.

As much as you say people hold his reputation against him, there are just as many people that really really want him to be good so they read things into his game that aren't there.

 

[Bench]

So the same defense of the last few years with the addition of Green magically made Kronwalls play drop off that much? No Kronwall had himself and absolutey terrible season and it hurt the wings because when he was playing like a number one they didnt look too bad. Noone besides the Ericcson Kronwall pairing played worse than usual this year. Green and Smith as a pairing were probably an overall upgrade from seasons past,Kronwall and Ericcson (who has been falling off for a couple seasons) were the biggest reason the wings D looked so much worse than past years.

Yes, well, where did I herald Kronwall's play? My biggest compliment was "not horrible". I considered that pretty lukewarm.

The idea is that Kronwall looked so bad because he was put into the worst possible spot to look bad. Any of our defenders in that top role are going to look terrible. Period. Any one of them. And if you put DeKeyser up there, you might allow a few less goals, but now you've completely hamstrung the offense.

My commentary was to say this is the exact same discussion and debate Stars fans were grappling with when Robidas was their #1 defender circa 2008ish. He survived the role long as he could, looked bad doing it often, and all because the team had nobody else to even challenge for the spot. Not until the emergence of Klingberg has the team stabilized their blueline at all, even then, it's still very much a work in progress. Nill has quite a bit of construction ahead of him.

In short, anybody put into top minutes right now is going to look bad. The argument that playing with the Wings' top lines doesn't exactly fly when your top line is also overwhelmed. At the elite positions, the Wings are at a deficit. Pointing fingers at Kronwall and Ericsson, while propping up the likes of Smith is a total ruse. It places blame onto individuals, asking them to perform well above their abilities, if only the coach would let them. Rubbish. The defense sucks and needs to be overhauled. Kronwall needs help around him if he's going to survive his contract. I think any commentary outside of that is way off the mark.

 

[HIFE]

MOD

I mean, really? We're honestly debating whether Smith had a super-fantastic year or just a really super good one?

He is not a good defenseman. He was not good this year.

As much as you say people hold his reputation against him, there are just as many people that really really want him to be good so they read things into his game that aren't there.

No it was super-duper!

 

[Shaman464]

Kronwall is in full decline, because of the type of game he plays. He had some good tools, but they were more on the physical side of the game. So with his body not being 26 anymore his tools no longer applicable. Lidstrom was good for so long because his body held up, but also because his game was based around him being on of the smartest players ever. Kronwall doesn't have that.