Recalled/Assigned: Despres sent to WBS

[Dipsy Doodle]

No he hasn't. Despres plays sheltered minutes (because we have more experienced vets) and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that since he's still super young. Just because he's looked good in that role doesn't mean he'd succeed in a role like Orpik's.

Also, I'm a huge Despres fan (and Maatta and Bortuzzo). I've literally gushed about those 3 on these boards for years. But what's the point of putting those guys in a top pairing situation if we don't have to and aren't sure if they're ready. I'd rather have these guys progress up the blueline slowly and develop as opposed to just throwing them into a spot and seeing how they do. That's how you ruin guys.

That's not to say they can't earn their way up quicker like Maatta has though but they need to excel in every opportunity, not just look good and while Despres has shown he can be an NHL defenseman there's no need to risk putting him in a role we aren't positive he can fill better than a guy like Orpik.

We can't know if Despres is better than Orpik, but given his performance this season I'm willing to try. He and Letang have consistently shown the poorest hockey IQ of all our defensemen this year, and as a tenured vet Orpik in particular is supposed to be providing stability and serving as a role model for a young blueline.

You can nitpick plays to find fault with any player, but you don't need to look very long or hard to find examples of Orpik making goofy, unforced errors. The spin-o-rama that led to the Kane breakaway goal vs. Winnipeg, or slashing Ovie's stick out of his hand then somehow reasoning that he wasn't worth covering in the slot...that's the sort of thing that would get Despres benched in a heartbeat, but Orpik usually commits a few per game without consequence.

I'm a huge advocate of having young players worked into a roster slowly, particularly since you don't want an inexperienced blueline going into the playoffs. But Orpik is making mistakes you don't expect a vet to make, and he's doing it frequently. Despres can do a lot of things better than Orpik, so if he makes mistakes taking Orpik's spot it won't be anything we haven't seen.

I don't know about you, but as soon as I heard Orpik was going to Sochi, I was ecstatic knowing Team Canada forwards would be lining up against a mistake-prone guy like Brooks when it mattered.

The only thing that makes me feel the least bit happy about Orpik likely being a Penguin in the spring is that he did play very well in the playoffs last year.

 

[Shrimper]

For those that are interested, Despres is expected to play on the 1st pairing tonight with Samuelsson.

 

[KIRK]

For those that are interested, Despres is expected to play on the 1st pairing tonight with Samuelsson.

Well, it's important that he learned his lesson about pouting.

 

[canadianguy77]

We can't know if Despres is better than Orpik, but given his performance this season I'm willing to try. He and Letang have consistently shown the poorest hockey IQ of all our defensemen this year, and as a tenured vet Orpik in particular is supposed to be providing stability and serving as a role model for a young blueline.

You can nitpick plays to find fault with any player, but you don't need to look very long or hard to find examples of Orpik making goofy, unforced errors. The spin-o-rama that led to the Kane breakaway goal vs. Winnipeg, or slashing Ovie's stick out of his hand then somehow reasoning that he wasn't worth covering in the slot...that's the sort of thing that would get Despres benched in a heartbeat, but Orpik usually commits a few per game without consequence.

I'm a huge advocate of having young players worked into a roster slowly, particularly since you don't want an inexperienced blueline going into the playoffs. But Orpik is making mistakes you don't expect a vet to make, and he's doing it frequently. Despres can do a lot of things better than Orpik, so if he makes mistakes taking Orpik's spot it won't be anything we haven't seen.

I don't know about you, but as soon as I heard Orpik was going to Sochi, I was ecstatic knowing Team Canada forwards would be lining up against a mistake-prone guy like Brooks when it mattered.

The only thing that makes me feel the least bit happy about Orpik likely being a Penguin in the spring is that he did play very well in the playoffs last year.

Good news for TC, but bad news for the Pen's franchise. If he's given regular minutes in that tournament, the team will get next to nothing if they try to trade him before the deadline. He's going to look horrible on that team and other GM's will take notice.

 

[Bjindaho]

pixie and zidell must be related...


To add something of substance: Despres' game is perfect for our system, great first pass, can skate like the wind, plays the wall well. I don't get his treatment either. Hoping they just exercise patience and don't move him. I used to be a Orpik supporter, but these days he's more of a liability then anything else. Hoping they let him walk in FA and then maybe provide Despres the opportunity to play consistently.

Should be pointed out that even PK Norris Subban has been healthy scratched this year...the only thing I can figure is that the coaches don't like that when they go into a scrum, they skate the puck out instead of chipping or passing.

 

[Waffle Fries]

Not sure what you're arguing here. Is it that anything Rossi writes without direct quotes is BS and shouldn't be trusted?

Yes. That's exactly it.

 

[cygnus47]

Seeing as this is the de facto Despres thread, he was probably the best player on the ice and DEFINITELY the best player on the Pens tonight. Nothing was created against him from his side of the ice all night. He had a couple hits (one absolutely crushing play where he stole the puck too), a bunch of PK clears and was great in transition - mind you he had to do it all himself because our forwards were an absolute dumpster fire tonight. Broke up a lot of plays and at least one 2-on-1. Harrington was also good but had a bad pinch. Dumoulin had a couple Orpik moments and a couple good plays too. He looked a bit lethargic in his pivots. McNeil and Mikkelson were hot steamy garbage tonight which didn't make it easy for Harrington or Dumoulin.

 

[MeticulouslyDishevel]

Can we make a commitment as a group to not post anything Rossi says unless it's a direct quote? It's not worth humoring him by posting links to his ******** and giving him more hits.

Whoops sorry about that. Law school pounded the whole "cite your sources" rule into me. I won't do it again.

 

[Tender Rip]

Good to see you back, IHWR.

I was on your beat, arguing Orpik's strengths, last season. This season I don't think that is justifiable.
Usually I would also look at minutes and match ups, as well as hits/blocks etc. to support the eye test. I think he is failing the eye test big time, to the extent that I think both Despres and Bortuzzo look noticeably better from any angle. If we look at numbers.... Well, the arguments in Orpik's favor are the same as those one can make for Adams to an extent, and Bylsma's obviously overplaying the latter doesn't mean he is less of a car crash out there.

I'm back with the eye test, and I find it totally absurd for anyone to say that Despres has not looked MUCH better than Orpik this season.

 

[jmelm]

With all of the bombast set aside, it is pretty clear what's in line to happen here over the next year:

Healthy Top 6 now and very likely in the postseason:

Letang Scuderi
Martin Orpik (UFA)
Maatta Niskanen (UFA)

Top 6 Projected Next Year

Letang Scuderi
Martin Maatta
Bortuzzo Despres

That's my projection, as well, if Despres isn't traded and if Niskanen is not retained. And if that's the case, I don't know what the big fuss is. Basically, we're seeing Despres in an integral role in our top 6. If that happens and he performs well, then everyone should be happy. Yes, I would rather trade Orpik now and insert Despres in, but if that's not going to happen this season, then that should be the next best-case-scenario for all the Despres lovers around here.

I really like Maatta, but I find this whole notion that he was light years better than Despres to be maddening.

I haven't seen it on the ice, I haven't seen it on the stats (other than points).

And this isn't an insult to Maatta, who I believe is VERY VERY GOOD.

It's more a comment on how every time Despres makes a mistake, he's in the press box and insulted, and every time Maatta makes a mistake (and trust me, there are multiple mistakes a game), it's flat out ignored and Maatta is the next Nik Lidstrom.

I want both, but I also want to be able to carry on a conversation with people who can think straight and clearly.

I'm not necessarily saying that the way the players are handled here is fair and equitable (because it's not, and we may just be better off sending guys down if they're not really going to play), but there are 2 very big differences between Maatta and Despres (besides Maatta being a far superior player/prospect, IMO)

- firstly, when you compare these 2 players at the same age, there is a HUGE difference. You may perceive there to not be a big difference in quality now (which some will agree with, and others like myself will not), but as you said, Despres is 22 and Maatta is 19. The way he's playing is extremely, extremely rare. Despres at 19 couldn't hold Maatta's jock strap right now in the NHL.

- second, Despres has the option of playing against a superior level of competition by going to WBS than Maatta would by going to the AHL. This makes the first point less of a no-brainer, because Maatta would lose much more by being sent down to his respective league than Despres is by going to the AHL. This makes the decision of Maatta vs. Despres much more simple, because until such time should it ever happen that Brooks Orpik gets traded this season (which is unfortunately not likely), as many have said, Maatta and Despres are really competing for the same roster spot.

 

[billybudd]

snip

There's nothing wrong with Orpik's hockey IQ. Way I see it, he's got exactly two malfunctions at this point in his career, but they both cascade into huge problems.

#1. Loss of quickness. I don't mean footspeed here. I mean urgency. His stick-checking, his decision-making, his reactions...all in slow motion. This affects almost everything in the defensive zone.

#2. Unwillingness to pay any sort of price for doing anything. The most obvious place this manifests is if a player is within 15 feet of him when he has the puck, he just floats a feather up the wall to make damned sure he's not eligible to be checked. Normally this ends in a turnover. Occasionally, the left wing gets there first and is obliterated--then the puck gets turned over.

#2 is the reason the Penguins keep getting hemmed in for a full minute when Orpik's on the ice.

 

[WVP]

Throughout Orpik's career he has had the tendency to make stupid plays with the puck on his stick in our zone. ie, he'll have a clear lane coming out one side and he'll decide to reverse it back into a congested area, resulting in a tough play for his partner or extended zone time for the other team. He does it almost every game.

billybudd - agreed, he does mosey around in the defensive zone too much.

 

[IHWR]

We can't know if Despres is better than Orpik, but given his performance this season I'm willing to try. He and Letang have consistently shown the poorest hockey IQ of all our defensemen this year, and as a tenured vet Orpik in particular is supposed to be providing stability and serving as a role model for a young blueline.

You can nitpick plays to find fault with any player, but you don't need to look very long or hard to find examples of Orpik making goofy, unforced errors. The spin-o-rama that led to the Kane breakaway goal vs. Winnipeg, or slashing Ovie's stick out of his hand then somehow reasoning that he wasn't worth covering in the slot...that's the sort of thing that would get Despres benched in a heartbeat, but Orpik usually commits a few per game without consequence.

I'm a huge advocate of having young players worked into a roster slowly, particularly since you don't want an inexperienced blueline going into the playoffs. But Orpik is making mistakes you don't expect a vet to make, and he's doing it frequently. Despres can do a lot of things better than Orpik, so if he makes mistakes taking Orpik's spot it won't be anything we haven't seen.

I don't know about you, but as soon as I heard Orpik was going to Sochi, I was ecstatic knowing Team Canada forwards would be lining up against a mistake-prone guy like Brooks when it mattered.

The only thing that makes me feel the least bit happy about Orpik likely being a Penguin in the spring is that he did play very well in the playoffs last year.

I've always gotten reamed around when I suggested that a guy like Orpik is a lot more valuable in the playoffs than the regular season. I mean let's say we were out of the playoffs and wanted to move him...we'd absolutely cash in and all his critics would be surprised at how much we got in return for him. We've gone over all his flaws but he has some very redeeming qualities come playoff time and depending on how he adjusts to the ice size in Sochi he could have a good Olympics as well for the same reasons.

I dunno...wouldn't he be playing the role for USA that people would want him to play around here? Bottom pairing minutes and penalty killing...if people want to see how he'd do in a reduced role against the best in the world it's kinda weird to root against him (even though go canada).

Good to see you back, IHWR.

I was on your beat, arguing Orpik's strengths, last season. This season I don't think that is justifiable.
Usually I would also look at minutes and match ups, as well as hits/blocks etc. to support the eye test. I think he is failing the eye test big time, to the extent that I think both Despres and Bortuzzo look noticeably better from any angle. If we look at numbers.... Well, the arguments in Orpik's favor are the same as those one can make for Adams to an extent, and Bylsma's obviously overplaying the latter doesn't mean he is less of a car crash out there.

I'm back with the eye test, and I find it totally absurd for anyone to say that Despres has not looked MUCH better than Orpik this season.

Listen, I'd love it if one of our young guys could take on some of Orpik's minutes and the team actually did a good job running auditions when he was out they as they spread his time around and guys like Maatta and Engelland and Dumoulin and Bortuzzo all saw games with over 20+ minutes. Of the young guys who saw increased time, Maatta looked the best which is why his role on the team has grown. So it's not like the team isn't giving out opportunities and rewards to the young guys but being a cup contender that is deep on veteran defensemen with proven playoff records means our prospects have to impress when given a chance.

I've always been an Orpik fan and I'm not an idiot...I can see his flaws and where he's weakest, but that doesn't make me discount what I know he can do in the playoffs.

Despres will get his shot and he can take a big step towards that by showing he's the best defenseman in WBS...and in all honesty, that's probably more important than showing he can play 15 minutes in the NHL sometimes.

Also, hey pal. Went back to mostly lurking for a few months. Lots of echoes on these boards I find mostly...not the worst thing but too many people just repeating opinions they've heard somewhere else and then that eventually becomes an accepted fact. Also, needed to come back early to help you guys out with your playoff avatars.

 

[zidell*]

I really like Maatta, but I find this whole notion that he was light years better than Despres to be maddening.

I haven't seen it on the ice, I haven't seen it on the stats (other than points).

And this isn't an insult to Maatta, who I believe is VERY VERY GOOD.

It's more a comment on how every time Despres makes a mistake, he's in the press box and insulted, and every time Maatta makes a mistake (and trust me, there are multiple mistakes a game), it's flat out ignored and Maatta is the next Nik Lidstrom.

I want both, but I also want to be able to carry on a conversation with people who can think straight and clearly.

As to your earlier comment about wanting a normal conversation: I only got snide and sarcastic after my opinion was boiled down to having a boner for young kids (woah).

Simon Despres is 22
and I do have a boner

But the two situations are not related (I don't think). I just hate having my opinion strawman'd. If you don't agree with me, fine, but my opinion is based on my own eyes, ears and brain.

It's hard to know what's going on from the outside, despite all the posters who think they can reader Shero's mind and can judge hockey talent better than the people paid vast sums of money to do it for a living. But from the little hints, it seems possible that the difference between Despres and Matta is work ethic and coachability. The Pens don't seem to like young players who won't listen. That's apparently what got Morrow shipped off. Personally, I never bought the story that Despres was sluggish in camp because of the flu. He's shown up in poor condition in the past.

 

[IcedCapp]

Despres will get his shot and he can take a big step towards that by showing he's the best defenseman in WBS...and in all honesty, that's probably more important than showing he can play 15 minutes in the NHL sometimes.

1) He's already shown he can be one of the better defensive defensemen on the team, which is what they asked him to do. He's never going to put up offensive numbers if they keep putting him in shutdown, non-offensive roles. It's kind of hard for him to prove himself in that capacity while doing what he's doing. But, since we're talking about Orpik, numbers may not be germane to the discussion, so I'll go back to: he's already proven himself at the AHL level, at least according to all of the people covering the AHL.

2) I think the issue is, very few people believe he'll actually ever get his shot that you're guaranteeing he'll get.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Should be pointed out that even PK Norris Subban has been healthy scratched this year...the only thing I can figure is that the coaches don't like that when they go into a scrum, they skate the puck out instead of chipping or passing.

This is false, by the way. Subban hasn't been a healthy scratch this year.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

There's nothing wrong with Orpik's hockey IQ. Way I see it, he's got exactly two malfunctions at this point in his career, but they both cascade into huge problems.

#1. Loss of quickness. I don't mean footspeed here. I mean urgency. His stick-checking, his decision-making, his reactions...all in slow motion. This affects almost everything in the defensive zone.

#2. Unwillingness to pay any sort of price for doing anything. The most obvious place this manifests is if a player is within 15 feet of him when he has the puck, he just floats a feather up the wall to make damned sure he's not eligible to be checked. Normally this ends in a turnover. Occasionally, the left wing gets there first and is obliterated--then the puck gets turned over.

#2 is the reason the Penguins keep getting hemmed in for a full minute when Orpik's on the ice.

I see Orpik - along with Letang - make poor decisions more often than anyone else on the defense. It's not slow reaction time or unwillingness to pay the price when a defensive d tries a tight spin-o-rama under pressure at the blueline or leaves the best goal-scorer in the league unattended in the slot. Those are dumb plays, and the sorts of plays aren't uncommon with Orpik this year.

Which isn't to say he can't be accused of your criticisms too.

I've always gotten reamed around when I suggested that a guy like Orpik is a lot more valuable in the playoffs than the regular season. I mean let's say we were out of the playoffs and wanted to move him...we'd absolutely cash in and all his critics would be surprised at how much we got in return for him. We've gone over all his flaws but he has some very redeeming qualities come playoff time and depending on how he adjusts to the ice size in Sochi he could have a good Olympics as well for the same reasons.

I think his playoff performances since '09 were hugely overrated coming into last playoffs, but if he plays like he did then, I'll be glad we kept him.

He would get a great return based on his experience and style (more than what Regehr and Murray got last year), which is why - coupled with his poor play and Despres' good showings - a lot of fans would like to see him dealt. But I'm sure he'll be here the day after deadline day, for better or worse.

I dunno...wouldn't he be playing the role for USA that people would want him to play around here? Bottom pairing minutes and penalty killing...if people want to see how he'd do in a reduced role against the best in the world it's kinda weird to root against him (even though go canada).

A lot of people don't want Orpik on the team at all anymore, haha.

If I had my way, we'd move him at the deadline. But given his playoffs last year, I understand why the org would want to give him one last kick at the can.

If we re-sign him though...I'll be very disappointed. Orpik's exactly the sort of defenseman we should be replacing from within with our blueline depth.

 

[td_ice]

Orpik reminds me of those running backs in the NFL that are super physical, and have taken such a pounding over the years that their effectiveness is shortened in comparison to other less physical players.

As Indiana Jones said, "it's not the years, it's the mileage".


I think that is the case for Bruce.

 

[IHWR]

1) He's already shown he can be one of the better defensive defensemen on the team, which is what they asked him to do. He's never going to put up offensive numbers if they keep putting him in shutdown, non-offensive roles. It's kind of hard for him to prove himself in that capacity while doing what he's doing. But, since we're talking about Orpik, numbers may not be germane to the discussion, so I'll go back to: he's already proven himself at the AHL level, at least according to all of the people covering the AHL.

2) I think the issue is, very few people believe he'll actually ever get his shot that you're guaranteeing he'll get.

Sure...I agree with the first point a bit...Despres has looked great in the AHL but because he's been so good he's been a fringe NHL player at such a young age. He has almost as many NHL games as he does AHL games at this point in his career so I think there's still a lot he can learn there.

I don't get the second point. So there's a collection of people that believe that the team for some unknown reason is holding Despres back? They already have several years invested in him with his development as well as the cost of a high draft pick and it's not like either the GM or coach inherited him...they picked him. How does it benefit the team in any way to keep him from advancing up the depth chart?

I've heard people talk this way about other prospects in the past and these grudges don't exist. They just don't. Like I remember people wondered when Tangradi would get his shot in the top 6? Or Jeffrey? But they never earned it and as their careers progressed we got to see why...they weren't good enough. I'm not saying that's the case with Despres, just making a point regarding people who look for ulterior motives for why prospect X isn't being ushered to the front of the line.

The closest I can understand is that we have a coach who's a former player that prefers to play veterans in certain spots as opposed to younger players so is that the line of thinking with Despres then? I guess that would explain the Orpik and DB hate around here.

If so, I don't really see it. I guess you could say we have a harder lineup to develop into but that's how it should be with cup contenders. Despres will eventually get his shot...he's too good not to and if he doesn't there's probably a reason other than "someone has it out for him".

 

[IHWR]

If we re-sign him though...I'll be very disappointed. Orpik's exactly the sort of defenseman we should be replacing from within with our blueline depth.

Depends on the contract I guess and how he plays in the playoffs but I think we're lucky to have the depth to replace him if needed.

As for the lapses that he and Letang have shown this year, I'm not going to totally disagree since I see them too but it's probably because they're being asked to increase their role as well due to injuries. It's hard to replace what Paul Martin brings and Scuderi was brought back to help ease the load on Orpik's plate. In a perfect world, Brooks plays 18-21 minutes a night...not 23-25 but we haven't had the opportunity to do that much this year.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Depends on the contract I guess and how he plays in the playoffs but I think we're lucky to have the depth to replace him if needed.

Can't see Orpik taking a pay cut given the cap climate. With so many quality defense prospects knocking on the door, a re-sign at that price would be a poor allocation of resources IMO.

As for the lapses that he and Letang have shown this year, I'm not going to totally disagree since I see them too but it's probably because they're being asked to increase their role as well due to injuries. It's hard to replace what Paul Martin brings and Scuderi was brought back to help ease the load on Orpik's plate. In a perfect world, Brooks plays 18-21 minutes a night...not 23-25 but we haven't had the opportunity to do that much this year.

Orpik and Letang have had more on their plate than expected this year because of injury. Everybody's had their minutes jump as a consequence, but Orpik and Letang are the ones who've consistently stood out with questionable play. If we can't count on them to at least look as composed as our rookies when times are tough, what's their value?

At least Letang can bring dynamic offense while he tries to regain form...all things considered, I'm ready to cut ties with Orpik. I was lucky enough to have missed the Pens dark days, so I don't really have the same connection.

 

[Valarukar]

I think his playoff performances since '09 were hugely overrated coming into last playoffs, but if he plays like he did then, I'll be glad we kept him.


If I had my way, we'd move him at the deadline. But given his playoffs last year, I understand why the org would want to give him one last kick at the can.

If management is smart they will be closely watching him at the Olympics. If the poor play continues there and he doesn't pick it up at all, I think they should be worried about carrying him into the playoffs.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

If management is smart they will be closely watching him at the Olympics. If the poor play continues there and he doesn't pick it up at all, I think they should be worried about carrying him into the playoffs.

Can't be any closer than literally coaching and managing him in Sochi!

 

[mpp9]

Depends on the contract I guess and how he plays in the playoffs but I think we're lucky to have the depth to replace him if needed.

As for the lapses that he and Letang have shown this year, I'm not going to totally disagree since I see them too but it's probably because they're being asked to increase their role as well due to injuries. It's hard to replace what Paul Martin brings and Scuderi was brought back to help ease the load on Orpik's plate. In a perfect world, Brooks plays 18-21 minutes a night...not 23-25 but we haven't had the opportunity to do that much this year.

That's a solid point. I'd like to see what the top 4 defense looks like down the stretch. Hopefully they can stay healthy. If Letang can get his head out of his ass, and Scuderi can take away some of Brooks' minutes, then awesome.

Most of my issues with this team stem from DB's use of it.

 

[ObsessedCreative*]

That's a solid point. I'd like to see what the top 4 defense looks like down the stretch. Hopefully they can stay healthy. If Letang can get his head out of his ass, and Scuderi can take away some of Brooks' minutes, then awesome.

Most of my issues with this team stem from DB's use of it.

Welcome to the same broken record we have all been listening to for going on 5 years now...