Recalled/Assigned: Despres sent to WBS

[MrBurghundy]

No he hasn't. Despres plays sheltered minutes (because we have more experienced vets) and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that since he's still super young. Just because he's looked good in that role doesn't mean he'd succeed in a role like Orpik's.

Also, I'm a huge Despres fan (and Maatta and Bortuzzo). I've literally gushed about those 3 on these boards for years. But what's the point of putting those guys in a top pairing situation if we don't have to and aren't sure if they're ready. I'd rather have these guys progress up the blueline slowly and develop as opposed to just throwing them into a spot and seeing how they do. That's how you ruin guys.

That's not to say they can't earn their way up quicker like Maatta has though but they need to excel in every opportunity, not just look good and while Despres has shown he can be an NHL defenseman there's no need to risk putting him in a role we aren't positive he can fill better than a guy like Orpik.

When do you propose is the right time then for Despres to be put in that role? Because right now the fact that he's never been given that chance is the reason why management is afraid to move vets like Orpik and seek out more experienced options in trades like Murray.

At some point you have to just do it and see what happens. The fact that he's looked very good when he has played would lead a rational one to think that should lead to increased responsibilities over time, not getting benched and demoted.

 

[Penguinzilla*]

I failed. Tried to enter youtube Bombastic Plastic vid from Black & Blue lol

 

[Winger for Hire]

When do you propose is the right time then for Despres to be put in that role? Because right now the fact that he's never been given that chance is the reason why management is afraid to move vets like Orpik and seek out more experienced options in trades like Murray.

At some point you have to just do it and see what happens. The fact that he's looked very good when he has played would lead a rational one to think that should lead to increased responsibilities over time, not getting benched and demoted.

If you don't want to do it when you have a huge lead in the division on top of having a veteran defender in Orpik claiming that he saves himself for the playoffs, when would be a better time to suit him up?

 

[IHWR]

Using stats to prove defense doesn't work in hockey because it's too fluid of a game.

The Pens are a good team in a terrible division so everyone's stats are gonna look good. That's why you have to actually watch the games to form an opinion, not read the stat sheets.

I've watched every game this season...and pretty much every Pens season for the past 10+ years.

I'm not some hockeydb clicker who doesn't understand hockey systems. And if you are watching every game then I'd suggest you are doing so looking for things to dislike about Orpik's game and making mental notes anytime he does anything wrong. I've been guilty of that before too.

But here's the thing...I'm not going to invite you over to watch the game with me so it's not like we can do this in real time, but people opinion's of players are often tainted by reading what other's say and then that's all they can see anymore when they watch games. Again...I do that sometimes too and arguably do the exact opposite when it comes to Orpik which is why I like to use stats. Doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong though...we're just seeing different things for different reasons.

 

[MtlPenFan]

When do you propose is the right time then for Despres to be put in that role? Because right now the fact that he's never been given that chance is the reason why management is afraid to move vets like Orpik and seek out more experienced options in trades like Murray.

At some point you have to just do it and see what happens. The fact that he's looked very good when he has played would lead a rational one to think that should lead to increased responsibilities over time, not getting benched and demoted.

You forgot Eaton.

And that's the gist of my complaint. They went and got two guys in Eaton and Murray last year because they believed them to be better options on the back end. Eaton was jobless before AND after the Pens signed him, and Murray had to basically wait until training camp for another contract.

Let's also not forget picking up 15 forwards near the deadline, and creating a logjam that ended up with - once again - with the wrong guys being benched in favor of Adams and Glass.

Vitale, TK (when he was still a good playoff performer) and Beau. Only when the clowns behind the bench saw that losing to the Isles was becoming an all to real possibility did they see the light, and starting bringing back faster, younger and more energetic players into the lineup.

I think the only thing preventing another such trade on the back end for a vet is the fact that the cap dropped considerably, and Shero has already traded away a ton of tradeable assets in terms of prospects and draft choices. I'm sure Olli is a bad few games in a row away from Engelland taking his spot in the lineup too.

 

[IHWR]

When do you propose is the right time then for Despres to be put in that role? Because right now the fact that he's never been given that chance is the reason why management is afraid to move vets like Orpik and seek out more experienced options in trades like Murray.

At some point you have to just do it and see what happens. The fact that he's looked very good when he has played would lead a rational one to think that should lead to increased responsibilities over time, not getting benched and demoted.

My honest answer is that Despres hasn't stolen anyone's job yet. In fact, he let Maatta jump him on the depth chart this season which isn't good news for him either.

No one is going to hand him a promotion for looking "very good" while playing sheltered minutes and I think he missed a big opportunity with all the injuries the team had early on. He had a chance to force the coaching staff to play him more and all he really did was show that he can play in the NHL not that he should be in the NHL.

Now if he's going to pout about being demoted...what good does that do him (and for the record I think that's being overblown)? He should go down and dominate in a larger role...force the team to recall him. That's how it works.

Ultimately...Despres will earn his way onto this team. He's too good not to but he'll have to beat someone out first. My guess is he becomes a regular next season.

 

[MrBurghundy]

How could I forget about Eaton?

Its just ridiculous though because this team and some of its fans use this faulty logic that because Despres isn't ready yet, its ok to dick him around like they do.

The reality is that he's played just as well as Maatta, and has been one of our best defensemen this season. For some odd reason though, he's held to a completely different set of standards than anybody on the team apart from maybe Bortuzzo. When he's played well he's been benched. That's just an asinine way to bring along any young player. If he's doing well promote him. Give him more responsibility. Don't take it away from him. Maybe he becomes more consistent and proves he can take over Orpiks role. You'll never know unless you try though and allow the kid to get in some kind of rhythm and gain confidence.

 

[IcedCapp]

My honest answer is that Despres hasn't stolen anyone's job yet. In fact, he let Maatta jump him on the depth chart this season which isn't good news for him either.

No one is going to hand him a promotion for looking "very good" while playing sheltered minutes and I think he missed a big opportunity with all the injuries the team had early on. He had a chance to force the coaching staff to play him more and all he really did was show that he can play in the NHL not that he should be in the NHL.

Now if he's going to pout about being demoted...what good does that do him (and for the record I think that's being overblown)? He should go down and dominate in a larger role...force the team to recall him. That's how it works.

Ultimately...Despres will earn his way onto this team. He's too good not to but he'll have to beat someone out first. My guess is he becomes a regular next season.

I really like Maatta, but I find this whole notion that he was light years better than Despres to be maddening.

I haven't seen it on the ice, I haven't seen it on the stats (other than points).

And this isn't an insult to Maatta, who I believe is VERY VERY GOOD.

It's more a comment on how every time Despres makes a mistake, he's in the press box and insulted, and every time Maatta makes a mistake (and trust me, there are multiple mistakes a game), it's flat out ignored and Maatta is the next Nik Lidstrom.

I want both, but I also want to be able to carry on a conversation with people who can think straight and clearly.

As to your earlier comment about wanting a normal conversation: I only got snide and sarcastic after my opinion was boiled down to having a boner for young kids (woah).

Simon Despres is 22
and I do have a boner

But the two situations are not related (I don't think). I just hate having my opinion strawman'd. If you don't agree with me, fine, but my opinion is based on my own eyes, ears and brain.

 

[The Big Dawg*]

How could I forget about Eaton?

Its just ridiculous though because this team and some of its fans use this faulty logic that because Despres isn't ready yet, its ok to dick him around like they do.

The reality is that he's played just as well as Maatta, and has been one of our best defensemen this season. For some odd reason though, he's held to a completely different set of standards than anybody on the team apart from maybe Bortuzzo. When he's played well he's been benched. That's just an asinine way to bring along any young player. If he's doing well promote him. Give him more responsibility. Don't take it away from him. Maybe he becomes more consistent and proves he can take over Orpiks role. You'll never know unless you try though and allow the kid to get in some kind of rhythm and gain confidence.

Its reasons like these that make it hard to root for Bylsma. He plays favorites, doesn't matter to him who deserves it more. Absolute awful way to coach a team.

 

[IHWR]

I really like Maatta, but I find this whole notion that he was light years better than Despres to be maddening.

I haven't seen it on the ice, I haven't seen it on the stats (other than points).

And this isn't an insult to Maatta, who I believe is VERY VERY GOOD.

It's more a comment on how every time Despres makes a mistake, he's in the press box and insulted, and every time Maatta makes a mistake (and trust me, there are multiple mistakes a game), it's flat out ignored and Maatta is the next Nik Lidstrom.

I want both, but I also want to be able to carry on a conversation with people who can think straight and clearly.

As to your earlier comment about wanting a normal conversation: I only got snide and sarcastic after my opinion was boiled down to having a boner for young kids (woah).

Simon Despres is 22
and I do have a boner

But the two situations are not related (I don't think). I just hate having my opinion strawman'd. If you don't agree with me, fine, but my opinion is based on my own eyes, ears and brain.

Absolutely. I mean...look at our avatars...we're not going to agree on this.

And I agree about Maatta to a degree. He hasn't been light years better than Despres but he has been better than Despres. Ultimately, those two are in direct competition with each other for ice time so that comparison does matter for right now.

 

[MrBurghundy]

My honest answer is that Despres hasn't stolen anyone's job yet. In fact, he let Maatta jump him on the depth chart this season which isn't good news for him either.

This has nothing to do with Maatta though. Well maybe in as much as the coaching staff let Maatta play through his mistakes where they didn't with Despres.

No one is going to hand him a promotion for looking "very good" while playing sheltered minutes and I think he missed a big opportunity with all the injuries the team had early on. He had a chance to force the coaching staff to play him more and all he really did was show that he can play in the NHL not that he should be in the NHL.

Nobody is asking him to be handed anything. He literally has played as good as any defenseman on the team this season for various stretches. That deserves a little more confidence and patience which is what Maatta benefitted from but not Despres.

Now if he's going to pout about being demoted...what good does that do him (and for the record I think that's being overblown)? He should go down and dominate in a larger role...force the team to recall him. That's how it works.

It doesn't do him good, but its hard to be a human being and know you've played better than others on the team and that they routinely **** up and nothing is done about it, while you get benched and demoted. You're being held to a different standard.

Ultimately...Despres will earn his way onto this team. He's too good not to but he'll have to beat someone out first. My guess is he becomes a regular next season.

He definitely will earn it, and I'd say he already has. Or at least has earned more trust and patience to be given a chance to fail. Right now he's not even getting that.

 

[themethod7]

re: you dummies using stats to compare defensemen, you should at least look at their Corsi ratings first:

Pens 2014 Corsi Stats

Who knew Niskanen was playing that well?

e: and here's the last 3 years (2010-2013):

Look at Despres, what a bum!

 

[IcedCapp]

Absolutely. I mean...look at our avatars...we're not going to agree on this.

And I agree about Maatta to a degree. He hasn't been light years better than Despres but he has been better than Despres. Ultimately, those two are in direct competition with each other for ice time so that comparison does matter for right now.

lol my avatar is more of a joke than anything, but I have never hidden my love for Despres. I try to be very fair when discussing people, regardless of my love/hatred for players.

The one thing I wish Despres had received was the same confidence from the coaching staff that Maatta did. Maatta wasn't here last year, didn't put in any time with the NHL or AHL squads (obviously), had a good camp and then was trusted through mistakes to grow as a player.

It doesn't feel, at least from my seat, like Despres was ever allowed to grow while in the lineup. He's on an incredibly short leash.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

It doesn't feel, at least from my seat, like Despres was ever allowed to grow while in the lineup. He's on an incredibly short leash.

It seems like Maatta has gotten a longer leash than any young player, which is a problem for every other player. Look at what's happened with Bennett, Bortuzzo and now Megna as well as Despres. Dumoulin was another one with a longer leash but he really shouldn't have had it.

 

[MtlPenFan]

I really like Maatta, but I find this whole notion that he was light years better than Despres to be maddening.

I haven't seen it on the ice, I haven't seen it on the stats (other than points).

And this isn't an insult to Maatta, who I believe is VERY VERY GOOD.

It's more a comment on how every time Despres makes a mistake, he's in the press box and insulted, and every time Maatta makes a mistake (and trust me, there are multiple mistakes a game), it's flat out ignored and Maatta is the next Nik Lidstrom.

I want both, but I also want to be able to carry on a conversation with people who can think straight and clearly.

As to your earlier comment about wanting a normal conversation: I only got snide and sarcastic after my opinion was boiled down to having a boner for young kids (woah).

Simon Despres is 22
and I do have a boner

But the two situations are not related (I don't think). I just hate having my opinion strawman'd. If you don't agree with me, fine, but my opinion is based on my own eyes, ears and brain.

Olli's been getting walked at least once a game for the past few games, and he's also been firing pucks up the middle (GO NORTH!!!) and giving pucks away. Is he playing poorly? Absolutely not, mistakes happen and the good heavily outweighs the bad, just like it does with Despres. However, it seems like the second Despres ****s up a la Vancouver, they hold him to a different standard.

Hell, I remember why Beau was benched last year in the Isles series. He scores a beautiful goal, then later in the 2nd period, he maybe took a second too long to clear the puck and reversed it instead of (GO NORTH!!!), and the Isles had an extended shift in the Pens' zone, which eventually left to nothing. The second I saw that, I'm like "Yup, he's done"

 

[canadianguy77]

It really doesn't matter how well he plays during games. If he has a ****** attitude and doesn't like to work out when he's called up, he's going to be sent down. I'm not a big fan of the coaching staff either, but these issues seem to go back to training camp. Why would they DB and staff lie about his work ethic on more than one occasion? Seems like there might be something to what they're saying.

 

[Waffle Fries]

It really doesn't matter how well he plays during games. If he has a ****** attitude and doesn't like to work out when he's called up, he's going to be sent down. I'm not a big fan of the coaching staff either, but these issues seem to go back to training camp. Why would they DB and staff lie about his work ethic on more than one occasion? Seems like there might be something to what they're saying.

When has DB and staff EVER said anything negative about Despres' work ethic?

Please provide a link with a direct quote

 

[IHWR]

This has nothing to do with Maatta though. Well maybe in as much as the coaching staff let Maatta play through his mistakes where they didn't with Despres.

I think it does...they are fighting for the same spot and while they've both made mistakes I'd argue that Maatta has shown more than Despres which is why he's been in the lineup more. I mentioned in the other thread about Maatta's ability to shake off mistakes...I think that's really helped him win favor with the coaching staff.

Nobody is asking him to be handed anything. He literally has played as good as any defenseman on the team this season for various stretches. That deserves a little more confidence and patience which is what Maatta benefitted from but not Despres.

Totally agree. He has played as well as most defensemen on this team, the problem is he's never really been much better than any of them either. Listen, I don't like seeing him sit either but it is what it is, he hasn't earned an everyday spot in the lineup yet and with all these vets coming back from injuries he was the odd man out for now.

It doesn't do him good, but its hard to be a human being and know you've played better than others on the team and that they routinely **** up and nothing is done about it, while you get benched and demoted. You're being held to a different standard.

Everything is a test in the NHL. I've been around various teams at various levels and the last thing you want from a guy is a headache. Despres being sent down isn't based on his play but rather a numbers game. So barring him flat out forcing the coaches to play him, he was going to go down regardless. The response you want from him is to go down and dominate...that's it. You don't need to tell them you deserve your spot, you need to show them.

He definitely will earn it, and I'd say he already has. Or at least has earned more trust and patience to be given a chance to fail. Right now he's not even getting that.

Besides Maatta for large parts of this season...what young defenseman in recent memory has? If we were a bad team with low expectations he'd probably be in the top 4 but we're cup contenders and with that it becomes harder to integrate young players into larger roles which is why having a good competitive AHL team is so important.

I'll bet you that at some point next season Maatta plays in WBS and everyone around here will freak out. It's just the way development goes for good teams.

 

[IHWR]

lol my avatar is more of a joke than anything, but I have never hidden my love for Despres. I try to be very fair when discussing people, regardless of my love/hatred for players.

The one thing I wish Despres had received was the same confidence from the coaching staff that Maatta did. Maatta wasn't here last year, didn't put in any time with the NHL or AHL squads (obviously), had a good camp and then was trusted through mistakes to grow as a player.

It doesn't feel, at least from my seat, like Despres was ever allowed to grow while in the lineup. He's on an incredibly short leash.

I'll agree with this...I don't think it helps Despres that Maatta isn't eligible to be sent down to the AHL either. Is that fair? Not really but that's how the contracts work.

Something that I've learned from player development is that different guys need different things. Maybe the staff feels that Despres could benefit from a little adversity while Maatta responds better to confidence. The end goal is to develop NHL players and I've never known a team to outright neglect a good prospect for no reason. Again, I have no idea what approach they're trying to take.

 

[canadianguy77]

When has DB and staff EVER said anything negative about Despres' work ethic?

Please provide a link with a direct quote

Read Triblive. Not a direct quote, and it does come from Rossi, so take it for whatever you think it's worth. You can argue that Rossi is just making everything up. I think that there's probably some truth to it. If he constantly printed blatant lies about coaching staff and players, the kind of lies that are damaging to the franchise, he probably wouldn't be allowed to be around the team for very long.

 

[Waffle Fries]

Read Triblive. Not a direct quote, and it does come from Rossi, so take it for whatever you think it's worth. You can argue that Rossi is just making everything up. I think that there's probably some truth to it. If he constantly printed blatant lies about coaching staff and players, the kind of lies that are damaging to the franchise, he probably wouldn't be allowed to be around the team for very long.

Exactly. You can't provide a quote from the coaching staff because there isn't any. I'm fact, it's the opposite. The coaching staff was impressed that Despres went through training camp sick and there was an article with direct quotes about how hard he worked on his defensive game. The only thing worse than the Trib is the fact that people still believe the Trib.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Lots of guys here pined for Lovejoy to be traded, calling him all kinds of worthless because he some times struggled after scratches and not getting into a rhythm. Some now want to feel good thinking Strait is a nobody.

I say he will have a fine and long NHL career.

Will we miss him? No. Is that the point the grumpy ones are making? No.

Merci, mon ami.

 

[canadianguy77]

Exactly. You can't provide a quote from the coaching staff because there isn't any. I'm fact, it's the opposite. The coaching staff was impressed that Despres went through training camp sick and there was an article with direct quotes about how hard he worked on his defensive game. The only thing worse than the Trib is the fact that people still believe the Trib.

Not sure what you're arguing here. Is it that anything Rossi writes without direct quotes is BS and shouldn't be trusted?

 

[IcedCapp]

Not sure what you're arguing here. Is it that anything Rossi writes without direct quotes is BS and shouldn't be trusted?

has Dupuis called it a day?

 

[canadianguy77]

has Dupuis called it a day?

I think he's lost his leg.