Derek Boogaard's brain would had full dementia at 40

[GreatGonzo]

Because one is an inherent element to the way a sport is played.

The other is bare knuckle brawling on ice, that happen once every 7 games.

I'm sure that checking is a cause of CTE, but CTE as severe as Rypien, Belak, and Boogaard? I highly, highly, doubt it.

Rypien, Belak, and Boogaard deaths all had other factors involved outside of the game. You can simply tie their personal problems into the fact that they fought a lot. One died of an overdose, while the other two suffered from severe depression...which you still can't correlate that to their fighting.

Probert also had severe CTE and head trauma, but he still died of a heart attack, most likely related to his drug problems.

 

[TheSituation]

Rypien, Belak, and Boogaard deaths all had other factors involved outside of the game. You can simply tie their personal problems into the fact that they fought a lot. One died of an overdose, while the other two suffered from severe depression...which you still can't correlate that to their fighting.

Probert also had severe CTE and head trauma, but he still died of a heart attack, most likely related to his drug problems.

You can absolutely correlate depression to CTE. It's a noted symptom.

https://www.alz.org/dementia/chronic-traumatic-encephalopathy-cte-symptoms.asp

 

[GreatGonzo]

You can absolutely correlate depression to CTE. It's a noted symptom.

https://www.alz.org/dementia/chronic-traumatic-encephalopathy-cte-symptoms.asp

From what I've read, Rypien had been suffering from depression most of his life, and had suffered a real close death in his family right before he killed himself.

Once again, you can't make a blanket statement like that. I'm sure there are many ex enforcers that don't suffer from depression. Just because two did and they happened to be enforcers doesn't automatically mean they are related.

Context is very much needed with this.

 

[Not Sure]

They become enforcers because they want to play in the NHL....

Your missing the big picture. These guys understand and know the risks. You can give them all the data in the world, they still have the choice....so who are we to take it from
Them?

They are grown men. They understand the risks. They understand what they are getting themselves into, and I'm sure most of them loved it....

I think you're missing the big picture, and misrepresenting my point. My point isn't to get rid of hockey, it's to allow athletes fair access to the data if they so choose. In many cases these aren't grown men making an informed decision, it's 17-18 year old kids wanting to live their dream and sometimes being put into the role of a fighter when that was never their aspiration. They are big and strong and can take and throw a punch so it's either play that role or go ride a bus in the ECHL. Now if they are made aware of the data and still choose to leave their dream by taking punches no one should tell them they can't do that, as long as it's within the rules.

The big picture however isn't "I want muh fights". It's parents deciding to put their athletically gifted child in basketball, baseball, anything but football and hockey because they're afraid of permanent brain damage. That leads to worse competition, to a worse league. Big picture is showing this generation that you are going to be a league that allows it's players to make an informed decision, so they will bring their kids up to love the game like we all do. These are middle and upper class families for the most part. Hockey is expensive, and even more expensive for young kids when you buy new gear every 6 months. The last thing you want to do is give parents another rwwason to stay away.

When I was a kid on my first team I was taken out of hockey the day after Malarchuk had his throat cut because my parents were at the game and it scared my mother to death. I was out of ice hockey for several years until I begged her to let me go back. Now that I have kids of my own I know exactly why she did it. It doesn't take much for that protect your children instinct to kick in, the best you can do is show everyone you will be transparent and proactive.

 

[Not Sure]

From what I've read, Rypien had been suffering from depression most of his life, and had suffered a real close death in his family right before he killed himself.

Once again, you can't make a blanket statement like that. I'm sure there are many ex enforcers that don't suffer from depression. Just because two did and they happened to be enforcers doesn't automatically mean they are related.

Context is very much needed with this.

Context is important, which is why more research needs to be done. Depression is a side effect of concussions and CTE, it's also common in people who have played team sports their entire life only to one day no longer be on a team and lose that brotherhood/family.

The problem is some CTE deniers don't want to know the correlations even when they're found. It's starting to souls like climate change debate. "Global warming isn't real because it's cold where I live, today" sounds a lot like "CTE isn't related to depression because everyone gets depressed"

 

[GreatGonzo]

I think you're missing the big picture, and misrepresenting my point. My point isn't to get rid of hockey, it's to allow athletes fair access to the data if they so choose. In many cases these aren't grown men making an informed decision, it's 17-18 year old kids wanting to live their dream and sometimes being put into the role of a fighter when that was never their aspiration. They are big and strong and can take and throw a punch so it's either play that role or go ride a bus in the ECHL. Now if they are made aware of the data and still choose to leave their dream by taking punches no one should tell them they can't do that, as long as it's within the rules.

The big picture however isn't "I want muh fights". It's parents deciding to put their athletically gifted child in basketball, baseball, anything but football and hockey because they're afraid of permanent brain damage. That leads to worse competition, to a worse league. Big picture is showing this generation that you are going to be a league that allows it's players to make an informed decision, so they will bring their kids up to love the game like we all do. These are middle and upper class families for the most part. Hockey is expensive, and even more expensive for young kids when you buy new gear every 6 months. The last thing you want to do is give parents another rwwason to stay away.

When I was a kid on my first team I was taken out of hockey the day after Malarchuk had his throat cut because my parents were at the game and it scared my mother to death. I was out of ice hockey for several years until I begged her to let me go back. Now that I have kids of my own I know exactly why she did it. It doesn't take much for that protect your children instinct to kick in, the best you can do is show everyone you will be transparent and proactive.

How are/were they not aware of he data or even the simple mentality of the role before hand?

It doesn't take data to know that fighting like that isn't good for your brain....they chose to do it anyway.

I feel like your under the impression that they went into it blindly not knowing the consequences....they knew. Sure, there is more data and science behind it now, but it's still there choice. No professional athlete can cry fowl or act as if they didn't know the affect their profession would have on them in the long run, but for many, it's worth it.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Context is important, which is why more research needs to be done. Depression is a side effect of concussions and CTE, it's also common in people who have played team sports their entire life only to one day no longer be on a team and lose that brotherhood/family.

The problem is some CTE deniers don't want to know the correlations even when they're found. It's starting to souls like climate change debate. "Global warming isn't real because it's cold where I live, today" sounds a lot like "CTE isn't related to depression because everyone gets depressed"

There is still no way to correlate those particular athletes mental illness with CTE though seeing how they might have been suffering from depression their entire life.

Depression affects millions of people. And I'm sure close to a million commit suicide each year.....so there could be just more to it than simply "oh, well they were enforcers so of course that's why they got depressed and killed themselves."

 

[Not Sure]

How are/were they not aware of he data or even the simple mentality of the role before hand?

It doesn't take data to know that fighting like that isn't good for your brain....they chose to do it anyway.

I feel like your under the impression that they went into it blindly not knowing the consequences....they knew. Sure, there is more data and science behind it now, but it's still there choice. No professional athlete can cry fowl or act as if they didn't know the affect their profession would have on them in the long run, but for many, it's worth it.

It's like when people who sued tobacco for getting cancer. The argument wasn't "we thought cigarettes were hood for your health" though there's was a bit of that with big tobacco making claims about how healthy smoking can be. It was about the cigarette companies hiding info and lying about the research in order to maintain a profit margin. They hid behind things like calling cigarettes "light" giving the impression they were somehow better. Now that type of marketing isn't allowed and they were forced to fund an anti smoking campaign to try and offset the damage they had done with misinformation.

My point, in a roundabout way, isn't that the players aren't aware concussions are bad. It's that the league has been caught lying and hiding information from players, and that practice will likely continue until someone steps up and says enough is enough. Like you said players still fight and play even with the risks involved, so why keep that extra information hidden at all?

 

[EK47]

I don't think you can take out the two line pass nor should you. It's been part of the game too long, I think it would effect the league in more ways than people can imagine.

Coincidentally there are people calling for a return of the two-line pass to make the game safer.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Curriosly I'd be tempted to see reports for guys out of minor pro leagues like the LNAH or CHL (Central) where fighting is far more common and (I'd be willing to bet) brutal.

The big difference I'd imagine if you're concussed in those minor leagues, you're just sent home and told to wait. There's not as much pressure to come back or push yourself before your ready.

(While hardly great for you) I don't think the main issue is getting a concussion, but rather the fact that in the NHL (or NFL) you never get the chance to properly recover, and then put in a position to get hurt again. Most of these guys during days off would still be in the gym and pushing their bodies physically, the last thing you want to be doing. Toss that in with them pushing to come back asap, and it's not a surprise CTE would be the end result.

 

[Not Sure]

There is still no way to correlate those particular athletes mental illness with CTE though seeing how they might have been suffering from depression their entire life.

Depression affects millions of people. And I'm sure close to a million commit suicide each year.....so there could be just more to it than simply "oh, well they were enforcers so of course that's why they got depressed and killed themselves."

I agree with you on that. I'm not saying trust either side completely, more research absolutely needs to be done. Some people though seem to not want to hear the results that don't reinforce their already held position. Following ideology, of any kind, blindly just leads to scores of followers and no real critical thinking.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Rypien, Belak, and Boogaard deaths all had other factors involved outside of the game. You can simply tie their personal problems into the fact that they fought a lot. One died of an overdose, while the other two suffered from severe depression...which you still can't correlate that to their fighting.

Probert also had severe CTE and head trauma, but he still died of a heart attack, most likely related to his drug problems.

Why do you think most fighters end up taking a lot of medication? Do you think fighting is painless?

 

[Legionnaire]

Why do you think most fighters end up taking a lot of medication? Do you think fighting is painless?

Change that to players and now you're talking about professional sport's real dirty little secret.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Why do you think most fighters end up taking a lot of medication? Do you think fighting is painless?

Athletes in general have that problem. Not just fighters. You can't just limit a problem to fighting.

Besides, they still goes deeper than we really understand. Because they are knowingly ingesting countless pills, while doctors are giving him prescriptions for multiple pills.

I know how painful fighting is. I also know that I chose to fight, knowing the pain and consequences it comes with.

 

[Individual 1]

How are/were they not aware of he data or even the simple mentality of the role before hand?

It doesn't take data to know that fighting like that isn't good for your brain....they chose to do it anyway.

I feel like your under the impression that they went into it blindly not knowing the consequences....they knew. Sure, there is more data and science behind it now, but it's still there choice. No professional athlete can cry fowl or act as if they didn't know the affect their profession would have on them in the long run, but for many, it's worth it.

The first paper on CTE was released in 2005 and the NFL did their best to discredit it for years. The players did not know the risks and the full risks are likely still not known yet. According to Bonston University the symptoms of CTE include memory loss, confusion, impaired judgment, impulse control problems, aggression, depression, anxiety, suicidality, parkinsonism, and, eventually, progressive dementia. You could likely check off a large chunk of that list for Boogaard, Probert Belak, Rypien.

Expecting young men who are not old enough to buy alcohol in the USA to make the best decisions regarding their future is extremely disingenuous. You have 40 year olds who haven't started saving for retirement, people often don't do what is best for themselves longterm. Even with things like OSHA and CCOHS you have young men doing ridiculously risky things at their low paying construction jobs and other low paying jobs, I can't imagine what it would be like without those programs. People don't always act in their own best interest especially longterm but I do believe the NHL should do what they can to reduce the risks and I believe they are going to have to.

 

[Sol]

I just don't think you can make a good argument for such a drastic change to the sport over some anomalous cases.

Anyways, if you want to talk about removing random shit from sports that is dangerous. I saw this guy in his UFC opener the other day do a flying knee absolutely destroying his opponent. I think you can make a case for something like that. You shouldn't need to do a high damage flying attack like that to beat someone in such a brutal way.

NHL fights are hardly brutal and most that do connect punches are only a couple jabs and nothing else.


But. Man...

Warning Graphic video of the knee I'm talking about.

Even for the UFC that is unnecessary and over the top. The guy didn't come up for a few minutes.

 

[newfy]

His brain was analyzed by a lab in boston and yes his CTE was severe.

Yeah thats fine. WHat I'm saying is its hard for me to believe that he would've had full blown dementia by 40 caused by fighting. I mean, some people get dementia very young I guess so its possible. But Boogard had very very few fights compared to a lot of other tough guys and at his size I doubt he got hit as much as many of them.

I mean, there is literally no enforcers that have had dementia at age 40 and plenty have been hit much more than Boogard. I think Boogard is more an exception than the rule here

 

[GreatGonzo]

The first paper on CTE was released in 2005 and the NFL did their best to discredit it for years. The players did not know the risks and the full risks are likely still not known yet. According to Bonston University the symptoms of CTE include memory loss, confusion, impaired judgment, impulse control problems, aggression, depression, anxiety, suicidality, parkinsonism, and, eventually, progressive dementia. You could likely check off a large chunk of that list for Boogaard, Probert Belak, Rypien.

Expecting young men who are not old enough to buy alcohol in the USA to make the best decisions regarding their future is extremely disingenuous. You have 40 year olds who haven't started saving for retirement, people often don't do what is best for themselves longterm. Even with things like OSHA and CCOHS you have young men doing ridiculously risky things at their low paying construction jobs and other low paying jobs, I can't imagine what it would be like without those programs. People don't always act in their own best interest especially longterm but I do believe the NHL should do what they can to reduce the risks and I believe they are going to have to.

I agree with a lot of this.

In the end, I'm sure a lot of it is business. Whatever sports industry it is, they don't want anything hurting their business.

But, I'm not going to agree that these Young athletes are completely clueless to the repercussions of playing football. Football is a contact and collision sport, it's going to affect your body no matter what. Now to what extent is the question, right? I mean I'm sure they didn't know and I'm sure most of the NFL doesn't want players to know...but here we are almost 13 years later....and football is still just as big with young talents signing contracts and getting drafted.

My point is, you can show them all the evidence and data, but in the end, knowing fully what they are getting into, they still choose that lifestyle.

These aren't normal human beings mind you, these are men that have capabilities far beyond our comprehension. A sport like football, or hockey, or even boxing is full of highly elite human beings with abilities that make them different than us....all that of course comes with a price at times.

Maybe to everyday people like you and me, it isn't worth it....but that's why we don't play professional sports. They do. And you can't please every person who watches these sports.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I just don't think you can make a good argument for such a drastic change to the sport over some anomalous cases.

Anyways, if you want to talk about removing random **** from sports that is dangerous. I saw this guy in his UFC opener the other day do a flying knee absolutely destroying his opponent. I think you can make a case for something like that. You shouldn't need to do a high damage flying attack like that to beat someone in such a brutal way.

NHL fights are hardly brutal and most that do connect punches are only a couple jabs and nothing else.


But. Man...

Warning Graphic video of the knee I'm talking about.

Even for the UFC that is unnecessary and over the top. The guy didn't come up for a few minutes.

I respect where your going, but I have to disagree...

Knees are a part of MMA for the reason being that it represents mixed martial arts, and knees are a big part of kick boxing and Muay Thai.

That's part of the sport, and MMA organizations have put strict rules within their world of fighting, such as head buts, kneeing when your opponent is down, shots to the back of the head, etc.

Does this make is safer? A little but overall, Probably not, but it legalizes it and makes it more professsional.

 

[Sol]

I respect where your going, but I have to disagree...

Knees are a part of MMA for the reason being that it represents mixed martial arts, and knees are a big part of kick boxing and Muay Thai.

That's part of the sport, and MMA organizations have put strict rules within their world of fighting, such as head buts, kneeing when your opponent is down, shots to the back of the head, etc.

Does this make is safer? A little but overall, Probably not, but it legalizes it and makes it more professsional.

Not even arguing with that, I'm talking about jumping into a strike. I find that to be excessive.

 

[Jonas1235]

nobody has to fight, Derek wasn't very smart unfortunately. He died because he didn't know the facts, some is on NHL, some is on himself.

 

[c0rn1]

who would've thought that hitting heads in fights or body collisions @ 30mph+ would actually damage the human and his brain. Whiplash anyone?
I find it really unbelievable that people still argue about the fallout like this wouldn't have anything to do with it. It's similar to discussing climate change with deniers.

 

[Individual 1]

who would've thought that hitting heads in fights or body collisions @ 30mph+ would actually damage the human and his brain. Whiplash anyone?
I find it really unbelievable that people still argue about the fallout like this wouldn't have anything to do with it. It's similar to discussing climate change with deniers.

I don't think people are really arguing the fact that it causes damage, the arguments appear to be based on what to do because it does cause damage.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Not even arguing with that, I'm talking about jumping into a strike. I find that to be excessive.

I mean, it's not though. It's a move....a strategy.

Whether it's a super man punch or a flying knee...they have a purprose, it's meant to deliver a quick and unexpected hit.

 

[Kimota]

I always wonder why this never happens in boxing and mma?