Defensively better: Crosby vs. Backstrom

[Skolman]

How is this almost tied? Backstrom has been noticeably better defensively over their entire careers.

People see Crosby in a poll, and they think "Oh it has to be Crosby, always go with Crosby" regardless of the poll

 

[Skolman]

Cuz Crosby doesn't get relegated to a shutdown role. He's too busy carrying his team.

Crosby never "carried" the Penguins.

 

[joe dirte]

Claiming he wasn’t getting noticed for his defensive game this whole time because he was in the hunt for scoring titles, is in so many ways calling him a victim of those circumstances.

Don’t you think if the NHL could have hyped him up for his defense, they would have? Absolutely....they just didn’t have much to work off of. That’s how things happened. When his scoring went down years ago, they then needed something to make him stand out. Now this past season, they have more concrete evidence of his play in his own end, and boy did they run with it.

No. Because why would you do that, when you've got far more flashier things to hype up?

To be clear, I'm not saying he was Selke level. I'm saying he's always been pretty good defensively. You saying "they didn't have much to work off of" implies he wasn't good in his own end. which is completely untrue.

 

[GreatGonzo]

yes, the bolded is true, but the masses don't necessarily fit into that category. I also think you'd be surprised at how many don't think Hossa was a very good 2 way player. Alex Semin played some decent 2 way hockey, go start a poll, and see how many realize that.

I never said Crosby changed his game.... Interestingly enough, I do think Ovehckin did (as did most Washington players). The Caps play nearly the opposite game they did 10 years ago.

I agree he is a sleeper in that category, but I’m confident that that’s mostly the fans who don’t know much about the game itself or players outside their own team. All I’m saying is Hossa didn’t get credit not because of his offense, it’s because he didn’t have a big enough spot light, always going under the radar, always a threat but never enough votes to “qualify” as such.

I was talking about the narrative that has formed based on him not scoring. It’s about adjusting. Pitt had to become stronger depth wise in order to make another run for the cup and not rely so much on Crosby and Malkin. Ovechkin had to do the same while cleaning up their defense overall. My point is defense did help them win, but it wasn’t the deciding factor.

 

[joe dirte]

It never gets mentioned because he isn’t that bad anymore, but still not great. He also just won a cup, so using that against him no longer works.

Ovechkin has never been a stud defensively and always got flack for it in his own end. Ultimately making his status as “loser” and “not a team player” more of a thing. Unless you lived under a rock, it was said many times on here that he will never win a cup because of his play in his own end, among other things. That just got the most talk.

Okay - well starting 3 or 4 years ago, I started touting Ovechkin for changing his game, and playing a much better defensive game. And I pointed it out to many people, claiming he was bad defensively. He wasn't getting credit for it, BEFORE the cup either.

 

[Ryan Michaels]

Bravo to the "good Canadian boy" for being gifted a Conn Smythe while playing at a 65 point 21 goal pace.

Only player in history to win a conn smythe as a minus player.

0% chance any other player wins the CS with that pathetic stat line.

I'm so ****ing tired of this. Can we just have one thread open forever where Caps fans complain about Crosby winning the Conn Smythe over Phil ****ing Kessel, who would need 10 more points than Sid to make a bigger difference out there, meanwhile Ovie won it over Kuznetsov, I really, honestly, stupidly, believed this would shut you up. I guess point pace is a new argument, a terrible one mind you, especially in a Backstrom thread, dude goes from point per game in the regular season to a 70 point playoff pace over his entire career. Kick your feet and scream all you want, he's still got 2 of them.

Whatever, I'm out, have fun never getting over this, a year out of winning a cup and some of you still have to sling feces at the Pens cause you're so insecure.

 

[GreatGonzo]

No. Because why would you do that, when you've got far more flashier things to hype up?

To be clear, I'm not saying he was Selke level. I'm saying he's always been pretty good defensively. You saying "they didn't have much to work off of" implies he wasn't good in his own end. which is completely untrue.

Because it’s Sidney Crosby.....he was the hype train going a million miles a minute. All eyes were on him. They didn’t ignore anything and they most certainly didn’t not give him the credit that he deserved. If anything they over did it.

 

[joe dirte]

I agree he is a sleeper in that category, but I’m confident that that’s mostly the fans who don’t know much about the game itself or players outside their own team. All I’m saying is Hossa didn’t get credit not because of his offense, it’s because he didn’t have a big enough spot light, always going under the radar, always a threat but never enough votes to “qualify” as such.

okay, well that's your perception.

Personally I think it's because he's just known as a speedy goal scorer. The average hockey fan just thinks of him potting 40 goals. It's the first thing that comes to mind.

I was talking about the narrative that has formed based on him not scoring. It’s about adjusting. Pitt had to become stronger depth wise in order to make another run for the cup and not rely so much on Crosby and Malkin. Ovechkin had to do the same while cleaning up their defense overall. My point is defense did help them win, but it wasn’t the deciding factor.

I'm not clear if you're talkign about Washington or Pittsburgh here. I'd say with Washington, they always had the offense, and cleaning up their defense is exactly what made the difference.

 

[Ryan Michaels]

It’s Backstrom. Very weird thread to make after Crosby has arguably his best defensive year while finishing top 5 in the selke voting. Backstrom has simply been more consistent and better overall. It’s not that big of a gap, but Backstrom hasn’t gotten a lot of respect for it while Crosby has gotten to much.

Crosby has never “carried” a team anywhere by himself. Especially in 2016.

That’s weird considering how often I hear how he “shuts down” everyone now a days.

What is this post? "Very weird thread to make after Crosby's best defensive year" no, no that's why it was made, the thread is comparing two offensive juggernauts who have been trending towards top end defensive games, and there's nothing wrong with that. "Crosby has never carried a team" Crosby carried his team this season and was nominated for the Hart, but I'm sure that doesn't move you because the awards are all rigged for him or something asinine like that, no matter how far you want to stretch that crap "never carried a team" is hot bull****. And then your coup de grace is mocking the idea of Crosby shutting people down? Even though you just said it was his best defensive year, and mentioned his selke placement....like, okay, I guess just spew anti-Crosby nonsense even if you have no thesis and the very post contradicts itself.

 

[K Fleur]

How so?

Anecdotally; He’s referred to as a “Selke level center” quite often despite never being close to winning one(Hell Crosby was closer to winning one this year ). People can brush off his lack of real recognition on “Canadian bias” if they want, but if they do then please explain Sergei Fedorov, Jere Lehtinen, and Pavel Datsyuk’s trophy cases.

Backstrom is a good player but I think sometimes in the pushback against how “underrated” he is some people go a little weird with their takes.

If anything I think Backstrom has received a fair amount of recognition for the player he is.

 

[joe dirte]

Anecdotally; He’s referred to as a “Selke level center” quite often despite never being close to winning one(Hell Crosby was closer to winning one this year ). People can brush off his lack of real recognition on “Canadian bias” if they want, but if they do then please explain Sergei Fedorov, Jere Lehtinen, and Pavel Datsyuk’s trophy cases.

Backstrom is a good player but I think sometimes in the pushback against how “underrated” he is some people go a little weird with their takes.

If anything I think Backstrom has received a fair amount of recognition for the player he is.

Yeah. There is probably an element of that. he played for a horrendous defensive team, and so people get in the habit of needing to point out that Backstrom isn't bad at it.

But make no mistake - he IS a good two way player.

 

[SlapshotTheMovie]

Give it a rest.

The idea that Crosby doens't play a strong defensive game is simply not true. He had a fantastic season in that regard, but he's always been pretty good at it. He just doesn't get noticed for it because he's always been busy winning Art Ross, Hart, and Pearson trophies.

Backstrom has as well, I realize. And the answer very well might be him, but it's not some massive chasm of difference, like you're trying to portray.

I am trying to portray? Are you even reading the comments. I said it was backstrom for career to date but most likely will be crosby going foward. This post was in response to someone who said "CROSBY AND ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE" but i am the one that portraying it falsely? f*** out of here.

 

[K Fleur]

Yeah. There is probably an element of that. he played for a horrendous defensive team, and so people get in the habit of needing to point out that Backstrom isn't bad at it.

But make no mistake - he IS a good two way player.

He is a great 2-way player. Probably the perfect center to, for lack of a better term, “play second fiddle” to Ovechkin.

 

[joe dirte]

I am trying to portray? Are you even reading the comments. I said it was backstrom for career to date but most likely will be crosby going foward. This post was in response to someone who said "CROSBY AND ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE" but i am the one that portraying it falsely? **** out of here.

Okay, fair enough. My apologies, I mistook your post.

 

[SlapshotTheMovie]

Okay, fair enough. My apologies, I mistook your post.

an apology? Shit never seen that on here before. Good on ya

 

[joe dirte]

an apology? **** never seen that on here before. Good on ya

Better to you guys than my f*&%ing wife.

 

[ijif]

You actually believe Crosby wasn’t getting credit?

This is Crosby. They give him way to much praise for nearly everything now a days. It’s just the timing of it all. He isn’t scoring as much as he used to, better make him “elite” defensively to make up for it. It all started in 2016, all because his scoring was mediocre to HIS standards, so they had to pull another narrative.


So once again, this is clearly a bias thread with a “what have you done for me lately” twist to it. Crosby having the better season doesn’t suddenly make him better overall defensively, especially when Backstrom had been doing it for years before this last one.

Crosby also hardly ever PKs and isn’t used nearly as much short handed as most who are “elite.” Defensively. Just saying.

And yes, the selke has become a popularity contest in a lot of ways. And plenty of elite defensive players don’t get the selke love they deserved. Look at a guy like Hossa.

I never once claimed he was a better overall defensive player. I stopped reading after that.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I'm so ****ing tired of this. Can we just have one thread open forever where Caps fans complain about Crosby winning the Conn Smythe over Phil ****ing Kessel, who would need 10 more points than Sid to make a bigger difference out there...

You think Crosby is good for preventing 10 goals against relative to Phil Kessel over a 24 game span in which Kessel's +/- was plus 12 and Crosby was negative 2 while penalty killing all of 10 seconds per game.

That is absurd.

Regardless, it's 10 goal / 30 point Logan Couture who got robbed. Not Kessel.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Backstrom is decent at defense. Nothing more. There are other forwards on the Capitals who have carried a heavier defensive load over the years - namely Jay Beagle, David Steckel, Tom Wilson, Brooks Laich, and more recently Lars Eller.

Still far superior to Crosby in terms of defense though.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Crosby carried his team this season...

Interestingly enough, Pens fans were saying Letang was the MVP half way through the season. But that seems to have been forgotten.

Letang for Norris?

 

[ijif]

What is Rel vs RelT?

Rel stands for relative.

Rel would just mean a straight on/off comparison with the team.
In other words, the stats are saying that the Penguins give up fewer shot attempts, shots, goals, and expected goals when Crosby is on the ice compared to when he is not on the ice.

RelT is more of composite with or without you, so it is weighted to the linemates the player actually plays with. In other words, the stats may suggest that Crosby is having a positive impact on the individual players he plays with.

 

[joe dirte]

Rel stands for relative.

Rel would just mean a straight on/off comparison with the team.
In other words, the stats are saying that the Penguins give up fewer shot attempts, shots, goals, and expected goals when Crosby is on the ice compared to when he is not on the ice.

RelT is more of composite with or without you, so it is weighted to the linemates the player actually plays with. In other words, the stats may suggest that Crosby is having a positive impact on the individual players he plays with.

I know what CORSI Rel is, I've never seen CORSI RelT. I'd love to see how they calculate that.

 

[NextYear67]

Crosby never "carried" the Penguins.

Ok fine just the best player on the best team

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

I'm so ****ing tired of this. Can we just have one thread open forever where Caps fans complain about Crosby winning the Conn Smythe over Phil ****ing Kessel, who would need 10 more points than Sid to make a bigger difference out there, meanwhile Ovie won it over Kuznetsov, I really, honestly, stupidly, believed this would shut you up. I guess point pace is a new argument, a terrible one mind you, especially in a Backstrom thread, dude goes from point per game in the regular season to a 70 point playoff pace over his entire career. Kick your feet and scream all you want, he's still got 2 of them.

Whatever, I'm out, have fun never getting over this, a year out of winning a cup and some of you still have to sling feces at the Pens cause you're so insecure.

Crosby's 16 smythe and OV's 18 smythe have nothing in common. Crosby wasn't even PPG, was a minus player and was double digits behind 1st place pts. OV was over PPG, leader in goals, plus player and wasn't double digit pts behind the leader. So not sure what point you're trying to make.

And it's not just caps fans who complain about that smythe. Literally anyone who isn't wet for Crosby can see what a joke that smythe was.

 

[ijif]

I know what CORSI Rel is, I've never seen CORSI RelT. I'd love to see how they calculate that.

Rel Team Corsi For per 60 = player on-ice CF60 – player off-ice CF60

Rel Team Corsi Differential per 60 minutes = (player on-ice CF60 – player off-ice CF60) – (player on-ice CA60 – player off-ice CA60)

Rel TM CF60 = Player’s on-ice CF60 – weighted average of all Teammates’ on-ice CF60 without Player (weighted by Player TOI% with Teammate)

Rel TM CF% = (on-ice CF60 / (on-ice CF60 + on-ice CA60)) – (weighted teammate CF60 / (weighted teammate CF60 + weighted teammate CA60))

I hope that helps (Rel TM is RelT). I'm not sure if that is exactly how Corsica calculates it, but it would be pretty much the same if it does differ.