Defend these hockey history scapegoats: Steve Smith and Tommy Salo

[Dingo]

I blame Salo far, far more than Smith.
Blaming the Swedish team for outplaying Belarus and only getting 3 goals is silly, i think. The difference in the game was the goalies, by a mile. 3 goals and 19 shots against should have been enough, easily. Their goalie did not play to an expected standard.
The Oilers were more to blame than the Swedes because they had seven games to even out the bad bounces and breaks. Smith was just the shit icing on the shit cake.

I felt, during the Swedish game, that Salo was going to blow it. The way it flowed. My old highschool band teacher used to say that the guy playing the triangle who has to only hit one note right at the end has the most pressure on him. That was Salo. I recall total territorial and shot domination, then Belarus would come down and score (i will have to go back and look at all the goals after this, but an Ateam goalie can be expected to make a few great saves a game, if we are expecting an A team to ‘find a way’ to beat a redhot goalie more than three times at the other end, even if all three previous goals were legit) The ebb of the game was one of pure pressure for Salo... you know what, i guess thats my defense for him. He had nothing but time to think about what an ass he was gonna look like if Belarus scored AGAIN after all that Swedish pressure. It happened three times. By the time of the 4-3 goal i swear he mustve been all nerves, like the guy in the Waterboy on the opposing team who is shaking before the onside kick, and the kicker says, ‘oh ya, thats my bitch’. Nerves, what else causes anyone to jump headfirst into a puck shot from center?

Thats my defence - He was in a uniquely pressurized position wherein he had already played poorly, or at least had not got his shit together, had no sequences of shots to get either confidence or even warmed up, and, being an international game, the pressure and the credibility of the team he had already let into the game through mediocre play had him in a mental state not entered by many in the game. He was likely praying that their wouldnt be another shot (which was actually possible) and that Sweden would just finish it. Kinda like how a three foot putt for birdie to beat your buddy is harder than a 5 footer when it doesnt matter. All you think about is how you can miss, because you are expected to make it.

Having a hard time finding the whole game/other goals.
I dont even think the 4th goal was on net. Looked like it was going over.

 

[jcs0218]

The only real defense that is needed is the fact that neither team is guaranteed to win the game (or the Gold Medal or Stanley Cup) even if the mistake didn't happen.

If Sweden could only beat Belarus if Salo hadn't made the mistake, then why does anyone assume they would have beaten an undefeated American team or a Canadian team that kept getting better as the tournament went on?

If Edmonton could only beat Calgary if Smith hadn't made the mistake, then why does anyone assume Edmonton would have beaten Montreal when Montreal beat Calgary in 6 games?

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

No. Canada would've been favorite. And 7 times out of 10 they win. I'm not saying Sweden has no chance.

Five days before the semifinals, Canada played Germany. I think you meant that Finland, which Canada beat in the quarterfinals, was a better team than Sweden, and I can buy that. Sweden was missing their best player.

If Sweden hadn’t funked it all up, I’d expect it to have been a much closer “rematch” in the semifinals, and it’s very likely Canada wins that time. But it would have been a more interesting story if Team Sweden’s torpedo triumphed twice against Canada’s trap.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

I blame Salo far, far more than Smith.
Blaming the Swedish team for outplaying Belarus and only getting 3 goals is silly, i think. The difference in the game was the goalies, by a mile. 3 goals and 19 shots against should have been enough, easily. Their goalie did not play to an expected standard.
The Oilers were more to blame than the Swedes because they had seven games to even out the bad bounces and breaks. Smith was just the shit icing on the shit cake.

I felt, during the Swedish game, that Salo was going to blow it. The way it flowed. My old highschool band teacher used to say that the guy playing the triangle who has to only hit one note right at the end has the most pressure on him. That was Salo. I recall total territorial and shot domination, then Belarus would come down and score (i will have to go back and look at all the goals after this, but an Ateam goalie can be expected to make a few great saves a game, if we are expecting an A team to ‘find a way’ to beat a redhot goalie more than three times at the other end, even if all three previous goals were legit) The ebb of the game was one of pure pressure for Salo... you know what, i guess thats my defense for him. He had nothing but time to think about what an ass he was gonna look like if Belarus scored AGAIN after all that Swedish pressure. It happened three times. By the time of the 4-3 goal i swear he mustve been all nerves, like the guy in the Waterboy on the opposing team who is shaking before the onside kick, and the kicker says, ‘oh ya, thats my bitch’. Nerves, what else causes anyone to jump headfirst into a puck shot from center?

Thats my defence - He was in a uniquely pressurized position wherein he had already played poorly, or at least had not got his shit together, had no sequences of shots to get either confidence or even warmed up, and, being an international game, the pressure and the credibility of the team he had already let into the game through mediocre play had him in a mental state not entered by many in the game. He was likely praying that their wouldnt be another shot (which was actually possible) and that Sweden would just finish it. Kinda like how a three foot putt for birdie to beat your buddy is harder than a 5 footer when it doesnt matter. All you think about is how you can miss, because you are expected to make it.

Having a hard time finding the whole game/other goals.
I dont even think the 4th goal was on net. Looked like it was going over.

Belarus had not allowed less than six goals in the previous games of the tournament, but they had made it pretty close against the Russians. I don’t remember who on the Swedish team played up to par, I think maybe Sundin, but as someone noted earlier, he spent a lot of times in the penalty box. Nothing was going great for Sweden in that game, there were sighs of relief each time they tied it, but it was a pathetic display before Salo’s gaffe provided everyone with the one moment to gang up on.

If you understand Swedish, I suggest that you go listen to this 4 minute compilation of Lasse Granqvist’s radio commentary of the game, and you’ll get a pretty good feel for the Swedes’ performance. He’s constantly appalled, complaining about mistakes, points out Kim Johnsson for the sequence before one of Belarus’ goals, and Öhlund for another, and is horrified by allowing the Belarusians a 2-on-1 when Sweden plays 5-on-3. The Swedish tying goals sounds only like brief moments of relief, hoping against hope that Sweden will be able to steer up their ship.

We really, really need to forgive Salo and stop blaming him for that game. His life has become much more miserable in parts because of a game where the entire team just plain dropped a big fat deuce against a team that barely had any business in the Olympic hockey tournament, much less the quarterfinals, to begin with. Or as Granqvist called it, “a shame for Swedish ice hockey” and the “worst Swedish athletic fiasco since Japan 1936”.

 

[The Panther]

As someone noted upthread, Smith's mistake in the third period of game 7 was just the icing on the Mistake Cake the Oilers had been baking all series long. I would say, if Smith didn't bank that puck off of Fuhr's leg, it's still 2:1 odds the Flames win that game.

Why? The Oilers, on home ice, from 1984 to 1988 were almost unbeatable. (Examples: In 1985, they were 10-0 on home ice, and in 1988 they were 11-0 on home ice.) In that one 1986 series alone, in four tries, the Oilers beat Calgary on home ice in three periods how many times...? That would be zero. Calgary smoked 'em in game one, lost in overtime in game two, smoked 'em in game five, and won in game seven.

I dunno, the Salo thing for Sweden is a bit different in that Salo was one of the NHL stars of that team. He was one of the main guys, unlike Steve Smith who was a rookie replacing an injured veteran. Salo actually had a good international career up to that point, and it's unfortunate that one sub-par game and one truly disastrous non-save has somewhat defined his legacy in a lot of our minds.

 

[plusandminus]

Tommy Salo rightfully participated in a season of Mästarnas Mästare (Eternal Glory), where Swedish retired sport stars of different sports compete. It is one of Sweden's most watched tv programs, that is often discussed during lunches at work, like "Did you see the last episode...?".

I think one of the worst things in sports is that players may get so blamed for a single mistake made in a career full of great things done. Salo is not alone. We have a former football player, Staffan Tapper, who became known for missing a penalty kick in the 1970s. David Beckham got a lot of hate for receiving a red card during an important football (soccer) game. And so so...

Tommy Salo had a great career apart from the Belarus game. He was very reliable. Few goals allowed, as his wikipedia page shows:
Tommy Salo - Wikipedia
One example is the best-of-two-games world championship final against Finland, where Sweden won on an aggregated 1-0 score. Can a goalie be much more stable than that.He was a world class international goalie, who went on to become a starting NHL goaltender, something that was up to then fairly rare for Swedish goaltenders.

Regarding the Belarus game, Sweden should have won it anyway. And if so, Salo's mistake would likely have been forgotten. Because that's how it works. It's basically all about the end result.

I think Mattias Öhlund was much to blame for especially one, but in my opinion two, of the goals against. But... had Sweden won, he might have scored a goal in the semi final and everything about the Belarus game would soon be forgotten.

 

[Dingo]

Belarus had not allowed less than six goals in the previous games of the tournament, but they had made it pretty close against the Russians. I don’t remember who on the Swedish team played up to par, I think maybe Sundin, but as someone noted earlier, he spent a lot of times in the penalty box. Nothing was going great for Sweden in that game, there were sighs of relief each time they tied it, but it was a pathetic display before Salo’s gaffe provided everyone with the one moment to gang up on.

If you understand Swedish, I suggest that you go listen to this 4 minute compilation of Lasse Granqvist’s radio commentary of the game, and you’ll get a pretty good feel for the Swedes’ performance. He’s constantly appalled, complaining about mistakes, points out Kim Johnsson for the sequence before one of Belarus’ goals, and Öhlund for another, and is horrified by allowing the Belarusians a 2-on-1 when Sweden plays 5-on-3. The Swedish tying goals sounds only like brief moments of relief, hoping against hope that Sweden will be able to steer up their ship.

We really, really need to forgive Salo and stop blaming him for that game. His life has become much more miserable in parts because of a game where the entire team just plain dropped a big fat deuce against a team that barely had any business in the Olympic hockey tournament, much less the quarterfinals, to begin with. Or as Granqvist called it, “a shame for Swedish ice hockey” and the “worst Swedish athletic fiasco since Japan 1936”.

Sundin was in the box once. Belarus scored shorthanded, as there were also two Belarussians in the box at the same time as Sundin. He also had a goal and an assist.
I remember the game very, very well. I remember who I watched it with and where I was. Very few Canadians that I knew then actually watched it. Me and the guys who watched it with me had some good arguments for a while with lots of people around us, who were saying, “Well, Belarus must be pretty good to have beaten Sweden” Canadians only take interest in a team when we are about to play them. We kept saying, “Canada has already beaten Belarus. Sweden ran them over. Their goalie was unreal and Salo was terrible. It could never happen again.”
I will HAVE to watch it again, now, but the only game I remember being as onesided and going to the outplayed team was Canada-Switzerland in 2006. That was also a drubbing, except Martin Gerber outplayed Brodeur badly (if i remember the goalies correctly)
I dont hate Salo, and I didnt care for Sweden then (that game made me start defending them and grow into being a fan, though) and i felt terrible for Salo then. I honestly said, and one of my friends watching the game agreed, “that guy will never recover from this. The loss is his.” and ive never felt that way in the thousands of games ive watched. I also didnt think Brodeur lost that game for Canada, he was simply outplayed, which happens. Ive seen lots of games stolen by a goalie - Giguere had a habit of it and even did it to Brodeur a few times - but ive never seen a player so obviously shaken, and in such an instrumental position. Really, in all honesty, my belief is that its on the Swedish coach far more than it is on Salo. I believe he was mentally wrecked in there, and he needed saving.
I feel very much the same when I watch Sergio Garcia blow a major, or Jose Aldo vs McGregor. The guy is just shook out of his mind, and only thinking about what can go wrong. I am also like this, myself, so i have a ton of sympathy for all of those guys.

Yes, I had better find that full game and watch it again, to back this up. It has been 18 years, I was a different person even, then, with a different set of circumstances affecting my mindset, but i really did think he would never recover, and also that Sweden was going to lose unless there were no more shots (I have a hunch that that was what the guy who scored goal four was thinking, too, “Just shoot on this guy, from anywhere”), and people thought i was nuts then, too.

 

[Peter Tosh]

Salo could use the argument that if he would have been sober, he would have stopped that puck

 

[plusandminus]

Salo could use the argument that if he would have been sober, he would have stopped that puck

I don't like that accusation unless it's confirmed true. Do you have a reliable source for him being drunk during the game?
If he was/looked drunk, I'm surprised the coach (Hardy Nilsson) let him play.

 

[Dingo]

Salo could use the argument that if he would have been sober, he would have stopped that puck

this is a joke on his recent dui, right?

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Sundin was in the box once. Belarus scored shorthanded, as there were also two Belarussians in the box at the same time as Sundin. He also had a goal and an assist.
I remember the game very, very well. I remember who I watched it with and where I was. Very few Canadians that I knew then actually watched it. Me and the guys who watched it with me had some good arguments for a while with lots of people around us, who were saying, “Well, Belarus must be pretty good to have beaten Sweden” Canadians only take interest in a team when we are about to play them. We kept saying, “Canada has already beaten Belarus. Sweden ran them over. Their goalie was unreal and Salo was terrible. It could never happen again.”
I will HAVE to watch it again, now, but the only game I remember being as onesided and going to the outplayed team was Canada-Switzerland in 2006. That was also a drubbing, except Martin Gerber outplayed Brodeur badly (if i remember the goalies correctly)
I dont hate Salo, and I didnt care for Sweden then (that game made me start defending them and grow into being a fan, though) and i felt terrible for Salo then. I honestly said, and one of my friends watching the game agreed, “that guy will never recover from this. The loss is his.” and ive never felt that way in the thousands of games ive watched. I also didnt think Brodeur lost that game for Canada, he was simply outplayed, which happens. Ive seen lots of games stolen by a goalie - Giguere had a habit of it and even did it to Brodeur a few times - but ive never seen a player so obviously shaken, and in such an instrumental position. Really, in all honesty, my belief is that its on the Swedish coach far more than it is on Salo. I believe he was mentally wrecked in there, and he needed saving.
I feel very much the same when I watch Sergio Garcia blow a major, or Jose Aldo vs McGregor. The guy is just shook out of his mind, and only thinking about what can go wrong. I am also like this, myself, so i have a ton of sympathy for all of those guys.

Yes, I had better find that full game and watch it again, to back this up. It has been 18 years, I was a different person even, then, with a different set of circumstances affecting my mindset, but i really did think he would never recover, and also that Sweden was going to lose unless there were no more shots (I have a hunch that that was what the guy who scored goal four was thinking, too, “Just shoot on this guy, from anywhere”), and people thought i was nuts then, too.

I was only twelve at the time, and my memories are muddled, but I do remember it like a surreal nightmare, an absolute shit time for a Swedish fan, and seem to recall Sundin perhaps being the one bright spot however I can’t really vouch for it 18 years later, but yes, I scapegoated Salo, however later on, having matured and become more able to put the game in perspective, I feel a lot of regret for the never ending stream of crap he’s had to endure for that one bad game, when really the entire team and their coach failed.

That Swedish team had two hall of famers in their prime, plus another four that are likely to get in eventually, plus peak Markus Näslund, prime Öhlund, Nylander, Johnsson, and so on. I’ve of course seen many bad teams and uninspired players bailed out by sublime goaltending over the years, it’s way more common than the other way around, and I refuse now to bail that team out just because Salo didn’t. Win as a team, lose as a team applies, as C1958 put it.

Salo kind of did and kind of didn’t recover, his career didn’t end with that game, of course. In fact, I’ve read Oilers fans praising his play in the immediate aftermath of the 2002 Olympics; it seems as if while we lost all faith and respect for him in Sweden, he continued being perceived as quite valuable to his team in the NHL.

I haven’t returned to the Belarus game, but I recently rewatched the Sweden win over Canada in the round robin and while Salo did well, he just looks old school even for 2002. How to play goalie was at the end of a paradigm shift, it seems, distinctly moving away from goalies with that instinctive hybrid style into a more meticulous butterfly, and I think it’s pretty amazing how near we are in time to Lundqvist taking the reigns, seeing Salo in 2002.

Salo had a couple of good years left in him after the Belarus loss, but I remember that the 2003 WHC comeback by Sweden against Finland kind of cemented his unfortunate legacy. He allowed five goals, was substituted for Tellqvist, and then Sweden scored five straight to win the game 6-5. I can’t say anything as to how much he personally was to blame for the precarious situation Sweden had to surmount in that game, but it was kind of unfortunate that it was him, in particular, who was substituted ahead of Sweden’s miraculous comeback. That felt like the definitive point where it was clear Salo wouldn’t ever really recover. His tenure in Sweden to finish his career I recall as a barrage of insults against him from fans across the country.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

I don't like that accusation unless it's confirmed true. Do you have a reliable source for him being drunk during the game?
If he was/looked drunk, I'm surprised the coach (Hardy Nilsson) let him play.

The team, the coach and their mothers were all hungover in that game, it’s unfair to single Salo out just because his recent DUI.

I guess that Näslund likely was sober, though. He probably stayed at the hotel mentoring the Sedins over coffee, teaching them that celebrating goals is unethical and that the team will have to pay tomorrow for their sins tonight.

 

[Dingo]

I was only twelve at the time, and my memories are muddled, but I do remember it like a surreal nightmare, an absolute shit time for a Swedish fan, and seem to recall Sundin perhaps being the one bright spot however I can’t really vouch for it 18 years later, but yes, I scapegoated Salo, however later on, having matured and become more able to put the game in perspective, I feel a lot of regret for the never ending stream of crap he’s had to endure for that one bad game, when really the entire team and their coach failed.

That Swedish team had two hall of famers in their prime, plus another four that are likely to get in eventually, plus peak Markus Näslund, prime Öhlund, Nylander, Johnsson, and so on. I’ve of course seen many bad teams and uninspired players bailed out by sublime goaltending over the years, it’s way more common than the other way around, and I refuse now to bail that team out just because Salo didn’t. Win as a team, lose as a team applies, as C1958 put it.

Salo kind of did and kind of didn’t recover, his career didn’t end with that game, of course. In fact, I’ve read Oilers fans praising his play in the immediate aftermath of the 2002 Olympics; it seems as if while we lost all faith and respect for him in Sweden, he continued being perceived as quite valuable to his team in the NHL.

I haven’t returned to the Belarus game, but I recently rewatched the Sweden win over Canada in the round robin and while Salo did well, he just looks old school even for 2002. How to play goalie was at the end of a paradigm shift, it seems, distinctly moving away from goalies with that instinctive hybrid style into a more meticulous butterfly, and I think it’s pretty amazing how near we are in time to Lundqvist taking the reigns, seeing Salo in 2002.

Salo had a couple of good years left in him after the Belarus loss, but I remember that the 2003 WHC comeback by Sweden against Finland kind of cemented his unfortunate legacy. He allowed five goals, was substituted for Tellqvist, and then Sweden scored five straight to win the game 6-5. I can’t say anything as to how much he personally was to blame for the precarious situation Sweden had to surmount in that game, but it was kind of unfortunate that it was him, in particular, who was substituted ahead of Sweden’s miraculous comeback. That felt like the definitive point where it was clear Salo wouldn’t ever really recover. His tenure in Sweden to finish his career I recall as a barrage of insults against him from fans across the country.

well, he certainly shouldnt have been treated so poorly for it.
I just cant see blaming the team, however. There is only so much a team can be expected to outplay another team. They met my quota, anyways. Not much more you can do. Sweden 2010 game against Belarus was way more of a poor display, and they squeeked out the win.
Its not the same thing exactly, but that mindset of, “if you didnt win you didnt play well” reminds me of Ovechkin getting flak when Halak was on fire and the Habs won that series. May have been 2010 as well. There were games where he had as many shots as the entire Habs team. I just dont know how you can blame a guy or ask more of him.
The performance the Swedes gave in 2002, in my memory at least, would win that game 999/1000. I simply cant give them shit for it. Even if Mezin had been just normal it would have been 6 or 7 to 4 and Salo’s play would have been a footnote, but then it shouldnt have been because it was atrocious. As long as you win people overlook your flaws, and if you lose they look for ones that sometimes arent there. Rubs me the wrong way, the game isnt perfectly designed wherein the score always comes out right. To become better one should analyze more intelligently than simply W or L, work on flaws win or lose. The flaw there was Salo, whether they had won or lost. But he should have been forgiven after an initial week of frustration-venting

 

[buffalowing88]

As someone noted upthread, Smith's mistake in the third period of game 7 was just the icing on the Mistake Cake the Oilers had been baking all series long. I would say, if Smith didn't bank that puck off of Fuhr's leg, it's still 2:1 odds the Flames win that game.

Why? The Oilers, on home ice, from 1984 to 1988 were almost unbeatable. (Examples: In 1985, they were 10-0 on home ice, and in 1988 they were 11-0 on home ice.) In that one 1986 series alone, in four tries, the Oilers beat Calgary on home ice in three periods how many times...? That would be zero. Calgary smoked 'em in game one, lost in overtime in game two, smoked 'em in game five, and won in game seven.

I dunno, the Salo thing for Sweden is a bit different in that Salo was one of the NHL stars of that team. He was one of the main guys, unlike Steve Smith who was a rookie replacing an injured veteran. Salo actually had a good international career up to that point, and it's unfortunate that one sub-par game and one truly disastrous non-save has somewhat defined his legacy in a lot of our minds.

I tend to try and think that the good that Salo did for the entire national contingency of players is still important. Very rough game, but is wasn't as if he simply stopped performing out of nowhere. He had a bad showing in a very important moment. Things happen.

 

[JianYang]

Smith was a pretty good dman who played for a really long time. He made a huge mistake in a very big moment, but it shouldn't define his career.

Salo didn't have anywhere near the longevity that Smith had, but he had a 3 year period in Edmonton where the oilers just played the crap out of him. He averaged over 70 games a season in this stretch, and he put up respectable numbers.

 

[MS]

Own goal aside he was an average defenseman.


My gripes with him are mostly due to him being fairly dirty and extremely cowardly when it came to answering the bell against anyone his size.

Smith was the #1 defender on two Cup winners, put up 3 50-point seasons despite being primarily a matchup defensive defender, and played in an All-Star game. He was a top 15-20 defender in the NHL for about a 5 year stretch. Calling him 'average' is ridiculous, and I hated the guy.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i guess i was never clear on who, if anyone, was the oilers' #1 after coffey left.

from the GF/GA numbers, it seems pretty even between smith, huddy, lowe, and even muni.

running the numbers

1988	GP	ESGF	ESGA	PPGF	PKGA
smith	79	103	53	37	34
huddy	77	86	63	31	31
lowe	70	85	67	19	53
muni	72	89	57	1	29
beukeboom	73	78	51	16	22

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1989	GP	ESGF	ESGA	PPGF	PKGA
smith	35	35	30	17	14
huddy	76	89	89	42	26
lowe	76	101	75	12	37
muni	69	91	48	1	36
beukeboom	36	26	24	2	11

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1990	GP	ESGF	ESGA	PPGF	PKGA
smith	75	73	67	52	19
huddy	70	55	68	19	25
lowe	78	89	71	9	37
muni	72	77	55	0	28
beukeboom	46	37	32	6	14

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1991	GP	ESGF	ESGA	PPGF	PKGA
smith	77	83	69	38	32
huddy	53	50	46	9	15
lowe	73	49	59	2	23
muni	76	63	53	1	34
beukeboom	67	61	55	4	27

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

i feel like it's a pretty solid 1a, 1b, 1c, with muni rounding out the foursome, from '88 to '90. randy gregg is the wild card. in those years, he barely played in the regular season, but was always back playing every game in the playoffs.

but anyway, i'm not sure smith is the clear #1 until 1991.

 

[MS]

i guess i was never clear on who, if anyone, was the oilers' #1 after coffey left.

from the GF/GA numbers, it seems pretty even between smith, huddy, lowe, and even muni.

running the numbers

1988	GP	ESGF	ESGA	PPGF	PKGA
smith	79	103	53	37	34
huddy	77	86	63	31	31
lowe	70	85	67	19	53
muni	72	89	57	1	29
beukeboom	73	78	51	16	22

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1989	GP	ESGF	ESGA	PPGF	PKGA
smith	35	35	30	17	14
huddy	76	89	89	42	26
lowe	76	101	75	12	37
muni	69	91	48	1	36
beukeboom	36	26	24	2	11

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1990	GP	ESGF	ESGA	PPGF	PKGA
smith	75	73	67	52	19
huddy	70	55	68	19	25
lowe	78	89	71	9	37
muni	72	77	55	0	28
beukeboom	46	37	32	6	14

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1991	GP	ESGF	ESGA	PPGF	PKGA
smith	77	83	69	38	32
huddy	53	50	46	9	15
lowe	73	49	59	2	23
muni	76	63	53	1	34
beukeboom	67	61	55	4	27

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

i feel like it's a pretty solid 1a, 1b, 1c, with muni rounding out the foursome, from '88 to '90. randy gregg is the wild card. in those years, he barely played in the regular season, but was always back playing every game in the playoffs.

but anyway, i'm not sure smith is the clear #1 until 1991.

1988-89 he was injured but the other 3 seasons he's generally leading the team in ES events, leading the team in PP icetime, and one of the core PK guys. He's playing ~25 minutes/game and the runaway TOI leader on the team starting in 87-88. Lowe probably has comparable ES/SH icetime but not the PP minutes so he's probably around 23:00.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

1988-89 he was injured but the other 3 seasons he's generally leading the team in ES events, leading the team in PP icetime, and one of the core PK guys. He's playing ~25 minutes/game and the runaway TOI leader on the team starting in 87-88. Lowe probably has comparable ES/SH icetime but not the PP minutes so he's probably around 23:00.

do you have access to icetime numbers from those years? or just estimated? do they exist?

in '88 at least, if you factor in the 9 fewer games lowe played, he is at a slightly higher ES events/game than smith.

lowe is ahead in '90 as well, even when you factor in the extra 3 games.

but i think the three of them are close enough in GF/GA before '91 that we'd want to know whether situations are a variable before taking those numbers to correlate to TOI.

 

[MS]

do you have access to icetime numbers from those years? or just estimated? do they exist?

in '88 at least, if you factor in the 9 fewer games lowe played, he is at a slightly higher ES events/game than smith.

lowe is ahead in '90 as well, even when you factor in the extra 3 games.

but i think the three of them are close enough in GF/GA before '91 that we'd want to know whether situations are a variable before taking those numbers to correlate to TOI.

I'm just projecting based on what current guys usually come in at.

When you factor in PP time, Smith was unquestionably the overall TOI leader on those teams.

Smith was the classic '25 minute all-situations #1' and Lowe the 'defensive conscience #2' although possibly calling them 1a/1b would be fair as well.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

well, he certainly shouldnt have been treated so poorly for it.
I just cant see blaming the team, however. There is only so much a team can be expected to outplay another team. They met my quota, anyways. Not much more you can do. Sweden 2010 game against Belarus was way more of a poor display, and they squeeked out the win.
Its not the same thing exactly, but that mindset of, “if you didnt win you didnt play well” reminds me of Ovechkin getting flak when Halak was on fire and the Habs won that series. May have been 2010 as well. There were games where he had as many shots as the entire Habs team. I just dont know how you can blame a guy or ask more of him.
The performance the Swedes gave in 2002, in my memory at least, would win that game 999/1000. I simply cant give them shit for it. Even if Mezin had been just normal it would have been 6 or 7 to 4 and Salo’s play would have been a footnote, but then it shouldnt have been because it was atrocious. As long as you win people overlook your flaws, and if you lose they look for ones that sometimes arent there. Rubs me the wrong way, the game isnt perfectly designed wherein the score always comes out right. To become better one should analyze more intelligently than simply W or L, work on flaws win or lose. The flaw there was Salo, whether they had won or lost. But he should have been forgiven after an initial week of frustration-venting

The game is on Youtube in Russian. I’ve kind of scrobbled through it.

I agree Salo is not good. He’s really not tested much, I’m guessing he’s used to having more to do, but enough with the excuses for a moment: he had a bad game, while Mezin really should receive credit for his performance, as you say.

Some notes from the game:
Sweden’s up 1-0, plays 5 on 3 and Belarus gets a 2-on-1 breakaway because Sundin lunges at and fails to intercept a puck that Mezin flipped along the boards, leaving miles of open ice in his tracks. Sundin hustles back home and takes a roughing penalty. Belarus wins the draw, the RD gets the puck quickly, winds up a shot and scores. Salo can see the puck all the way, but the shot is hard and very accurate. It happens.

A Belarusian gets alone with Salo later on, by faking out and making Kenny Jönsson look silly, who then hooks the guy who falls to his knees as he gets his shot off. I don’t necessarily argue against it being a penalty, but this I should say is one of many instances I saw in the game where Belarusian players seem to embellish and dive for advantages. They now have a 5 on 3 and are soon up 2-1. The goal is not a major miss on Salo’s behalf, I wouldn’t say. Two unlucky goals.

From this point onward in the first period, Sweden start looking rattled, disorganized, fumbles a lot: missed passes, fanned shots, and they lose several of 50/50-situations. Once in a while they get something going, and gets shots off, but Mezin has a few great saves.

Sweden overall I felt improved a ton in the 2nd period, and Michael Nylander’s 2-2-goal is beautiful. Sweden dominates the play and has at least a couple of shots to the post, among other things. An abundance of opportunities to run up the score, but alas, the period ends with 2-2 the score.

Now for a great moment in the game: about 1:25 into the third period, Michael Nylander levels Ulf Dahlén with a clean hit, like a glorious sign of things to come. About a minute and a half later, Öhlund passes the puck to Belarusian Kovalev who gives Belarus the lead. I think it’s hard to watch Salo’s old school style, but I don’t think that this is that bad a goal, either. He probably should have saved about one and a half of the three goals, but this really wasn’t Salo’s game, as will soon be beyond clear.

I have to go to sleep now, though.
But a few things:
Sweden shit their pants after Belarus’ 2nd goal in the first period, but played mostly well in the 2nd. Mezin has been looking terrific, several times. I feel like the Belarusians are embellishing and diving whenever they get a chance, but they have also managed to make Swedish defenders look ridiculous and take bad penalties.

 

[Dingo]

The game is on Youtube in Russian. I’ve kind of scrobbled through it.

I agree Salo is not good. He’s really not tested much, I’m guessing he’s used to having more to do, but enough with the excuses for a moment: he had a bad game, while Mezin really should receive credit for his performance, as you say.

Some notes from the game:
Sweden’s up 1-0, plays 5 on 3 and Belarus gets a 2-on-1 breakaway because Sundin lunges at and fails to intercept a puck that Mezin flipped along the boards, leaving miles of open ice in his tracks. Sundin hustles back home and takes a roughing penalty. Belarus wins the draw, the RD gets the puck quickly, winds up a shot and scores. Salo can see the puck all the way, but the shot is hard and very accurate. It happens.

A Belarusian gets alone with Salo later on, by faking out and making Kenny Jönsson look silly, who then hooks the guy who falls to his knees as he gets his shot off. I don’t necessarily argue against it being a penalty, but this I should say is one of many instances I saw in the game where Belarusian players seem to embellish and dive for advantages. They now have a 5 on 3 and are soon up 2-1. The goal is not a major miss on Salo’s behalf, I wouldn’t say. Two unlucky goals.

From this point onward in the first period, Sweden start looking rattled, disorganized, fumbles a lot: missed passes, fanned shots, and they lose several of 50/50-situations. Once in a while they get something going, and gets shots off, but Mezin has a few great saves.

Sweden overall I felt improved a ton in the 2nd period, and Michael Nylander’s 2-2-goal is beautiful. Sweden dominates the play and has at least a couple of shots to the post, among other things. An abundance of opportunities to run up the score, but alas, the period ends 2-2.

Now for a great moment in the game: about 1:25 into the third period, Michael Nylander levels Ulf Dahlén with a clean hit, like a glorious sign of things to come. About a minute and a half later, Öhlund passes the puck to Belarusian Kovalev who gives Belarus the lead. I think it’s hard to watch Salo’s old school style, but I don’t think that this is that bad a goal, either. He probably should have saved about one and a half of the three goals, but this really wasn’t Salo’s game, as will soon be beyond clear.

I have to go to sleep now, though.
But a few things:
Sweden shit their pants after Belarus’ 2nd goal in the first period, but played mostly well in the 2nd. Mezin has been looking terrific, several times. I feel like the Belarusians are embellishing and diving whenever they get a chance, but they have also managed to make Swedish defenders look ridiculous and take bad penalties.

nice, openminded breakdown. send me the link and ill watch, too.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

nice, openminded breakdown. send me the link and ill watch, too.

 

[The Panther]

There was no clear Oilers #1 Dman from 1987-88 through 1990-91 (I'm not even sure Coffey was the #1 in 1986-87, as he was injured a lot, Lowe and Muni were the top plus/minus and shut-down guys, and Steve Smith was probably their best Dman in the playoffs). I'd say the coaching staff (I think Muckler handled most of the defence) trusted Kevin Lowe the most, but that's because older coaches like veterans. Steve Smith was, in my opinion, the club's best defenceman from 1987-88 through 1990-91.

He was more important than people realized. Ask any Calgary Flame from those days about skating against the "twin towers" of Smith and Beukeboom and they'll show you the bruises and scars they bear. Also, look at Smith's teams' record when he was a full-timer in the line-up:
1986-87 - Oilers 1st overall
1987-88 - Oilers 3rd overall, 16-2 in playoffs and win Cup
1988-89 - post-Gretzky Oilers are 21-14-4 when Smith goes down to injury, and then go 17-20-4 without him. (He also was their third-leading scorer in the playoffs, coming off a serious injury, and had the club's second-best plus/minus, but they lost to L.A.)
1989-90 - Oilers win Cup; Smith outscores Ruotsalainen in the playoffs (scores the Cup-winning goal, in fact), and has the best plus/minus (+15) on the team.
1990-91 - Smith outscores the next-best Dman on the club by 27 points, and has the best plus/minus of any Dman.
1991 - Smith plays for Team Canada at the Canada Cup, and wins
1991-92 - Smith has the 2nd-best plus/minus on the Blackhawks (one point below Chelios), which go to the Finals. In the playoffs, he scores 12 points in 18 games and again has the 2nd-best plus/minus to Chelios.
1992-93 - Smith scores 57 points for the 1st-place Blackhawks (fourth in team scoring, ahead of Brent Sutter and Michel Goulet), which have the best defense in the NHL.

Around 1988 to 1993, I think Smith was one of the top-20 Dmen in the NHL.

 

[Dingo]

not as one-sided as i remember, and yes, Belarus dives a LOT. Sundin only pushed that guy over after his giveaway, for instance. He acted injured, lol.

Sweden is clearly better, but many defensive lapses, and Salo has actually made a few good saves (im halfway through)

I still have a fundamental, logical problem with ‘losing as a team’ and looking no further. If that is the case, and there is no point in breaking it down further, just call the 20 guys that win the Cup the best 20 players in the league that year.