Debate: Joe Thornton HHOF worthy?

[hohosaregood]

Wouldn't it be more like asking for Marino or Favre to run more. Note: I didn't watch football back then so I don't know if they ran much but I assume not.

 

[The Ice Hockey Dude]

I do think Jumbo is HHOF worthy. A cup would make is a sure thing.

 

[dmband]

Is Pierre turgeon a hall of famer? I see no difference in their bodies of work. 515/812/1327 in 1294 games. No cups.

I vote no for Joe but he will probably get in

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

No freaking way. He has done nothing.

And those numbers at the bottom are not even including last season.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Is Pierre turgeon a hall of famer? I see no difference in their bodies of work. 515/812/1327 in 1294 games. No cups.

I vote no for Joe but he will probably get in

Well, on top of being a guy who didn't show up in the playoffs, Turgeon was as one-dimensional as they come. Able to dominate weak teams and weak defenses, but absolutely stonewalled against more competent teams. A lot more of a point-compiler than Joe Thornton has ever been.

Joe Thornton was somewhat like that between 2003 and 2009. All-offense kind of player...if he wasn't scoring, he wasn't contributing a damn thing to the team. But even then, his offensive prowess blows Turgeon's out of the water. Then, Thornton made the change in 2010 to becoming a more complete player. That's why his stats have come down, even though he is a better player for it.

 

[Patty Ice]

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/38367/hall-of-fame-debate-joe-thornton

LeBrun puts up the arguments on both sides, but believes he should be. ESPN panel voted 67% for his induction.

And that's without a Stanley Cup (yet).

There is no debate. Only a clueless moron wouldn't consider him HOF-bound because of some ridiculous perception that he is the cause of playoff failures.

 

[OrrNumber4]

No freaking way. He has done nothing.

And those numbers at the bottom are not even including last season.

This might very well define having low expectations.

Firstly, not a single one of his OHL accomplishments matter for anything. Same goes for what he did in the Swiss League. From that list, you can point to his 2010 Gold, his two personal trophies, and his placement on a few first- and second-team all-star games as worthy of being included in this discussion. Other than his notable stats, the back-to-back 90 assist seasons is also a nice little plus.

 

[dmband]

Well, on top of being a guy who didn't show up in the playoffs, Turgeon was as one-dimensional as they come. Able to dominate weak teams and weak defenses, but absolutely stonewalled against more competent teams. A lot more of a point-compiler than Joe Thornton has ever been.

Joe Thornton was somewhat like that between 2003 and 2009. All-offense kind of player...if he wasn't scoring, he wasn't contributing a damn thing to the team. But even then, his offensive prowess blows Turgeon's out of the water. Then, Thornton made the change in 2010 to becoming a more complete player. That's why his stats have come down, even though he is a better player for it.

I guess but joe throughout his entire career was on better teams albeit in a lower scoring era . I am a turgeon fan and he had 500 goals and similarly became a more more complete player later in his career . Joes transition didn't help his team succeed overall (not sure that is on him)

I guess my point is that if you were a Hof voter now and then you could not vote for Joe and exclude Pierre then and many Joe fans think he is a first ballot guy. I think there will be a lot of debate amongst voters

 

[dmband]

I guess but joe throughout his entire career was on better teams albeit in a lower scoring era . I am a turgeon fan and he had 500 goals and similarly became a more more complete player later in his career . Joes transition didn't help his team succeed overall (not sure that is on him)

I guess my point is that if you were a Hof voter now and then you could not vote for Joe and exclude Pierre then and many Joe fans think he is a first ballot guy. I think there will be a lot of debate amongst voters

And just to be clear. Playoffs

Turgeon 35/62/97 in 109
Thornton 24/76/100 in 132

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

This might very well define having low expectations.

Firstly, not a single one of his OHL accomplishments matter for anything. Same goes for what he did in the Swiss League. From that list, you can point to his 2010 Gold, his two personal trophies, and his placement on a few first- and second-team all-star games as worthy of being included in this discussion. Other than his notable stats, the back-to-back 90 assist seasons is also a nice little plus.

The bolded literally made me laugh. He has done something only Gretzky and Lemieux have done and you just made it seem like a nice plus.

He is #19 in all-time assists as we speak. That is enough reason in my opinion. The others are just icing on the cake.

Also, like Nem I absolutely agree that using number of SC's won as a parameter is not very appropriate for the HHOF.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Yes. End argument.

 

[The Nemesis]

Wouldn't it be more like asking for Marino or Favre to run more. Note: I didn't watch football back then so I don't know if they ran much but I assume not.

I don't know if that' right, but it is like the people that hold the lack of Super Bowls against Marino or Warren Moon. Which is every bit as asinine.

 

[OrrNumber4]

The bolded literally made me laugh. He has done something only Gretzky and Lemieux have done and you just made it seem like a nice plus.

He is #19 in all-time assists as we speak. That is enough reason in my opinion. The others are just icing on the cake.

Also, like Nem I absolutely agree that using number of SC's won as a parameter is not very appropriate for the HHOF.

Because it really isn't that super-significant of an achievement. It is more a result of the era he was in (with the high PP scoring and everything). Trophies and hardware are more telling of a player's greatness.

I think that his high points totals, as well as his Art Ross and Hart seal the deal.

It isn't just the lack of cups; it is JT's overall playoff performance. At the end of the day, the drop in scoring from RS to the playoffs is going to be one of the biggest in NHL history. He's been rightfully criticized for a couple of truly awful series. This is a league, where, rightfully or wrongfully, there is a gigantic premium placed on performance in the playoffs.

 

[The Nemesis]

Because it really isn't that super-significant of an achievement. It is more a result of the era he was in (with the high PP scoring and everything). Trophies and hardware are more telling of a player's greatness.

I think that his high points totals, as well as his Art Ross and Hart seal the deal.

It isn't just the lack of cups; it is JT's overall playoff performance. At the end of the day, the drop in scoring from RS to the playoffs is going to be one of the biggest in NHL history. He's been rightfully criticized for a couple of truly awful series. This is a league, where, rightfully or wrongfully, there is a gigantic premium placed on performance in the playoffs.

except it's not. Just for example, Pavel Datsyuk, king of clutch and noted winner, has a bigger PPG dropoff from regular season to playoffs than Thornton does, at least the last time I checked.

Joe Thornton has dragged the Sharks through some playoff series, and he's played with tremendous injuries too. I know people are going to play perception is reality with this but the fact is that the whole myth of Joe Thornton, playoff ghost is hugely overblown. And it's not a fair thing to penalize him for.

The other thing is that Joe is not and has never been a big goal-scorer. So if other players fail to show up, of course it's going to translate into reflecting poorly on him. but I don't see how or why you can hold it against him if his perfect passes don't get converted. Unless you want to convince me that he should be telekinetically willing pucks into the net off of other players' sticks.

I would also argue that "the era he's in" speaks more to the high assist totals of Gretzky and Mario than it does Thornton. It doesn't in any way diminish their greatness, but there's no real disputing that they played in the biggest era of firewagon hockey in NHL history while Joe's 90 assist seasons came on the heels of the dead-puck, clutch-and-grab NHL.

 

[JeremyTB]

Why is this even a debate? Thornton is more of a lock than Crosby is right now. He's a sure thing to reach 1000 assists which only 12 players in the history of the NHL have accomplished. And he will probally pass a few of those guys in assists.

 

[Bizz]

If this was a poll, "No **** Sherlock" would be the only option.

 

[Bleedred]

I've never been his biggest fan, he absolutely is a lock though.

There's been way less deserving guys that have actually been inducted. It's foolish to think he shouldn't get in.

 

[19sharks19]

If this was a poll, "No **** Sherlock" would be the only option.

100% agreed.

 

[OrrNumber4]

except it's not. Just for example, Pavel Datsyuk, king of clutch and noted winner, has a bigger PPG dropoff from regular season to playoffs than Thornton does, at least the last time I checked.

I didn't say "biggest", I said one of the biggest. And Datsyuk and JT, IIRC, are virtually tied.

Joe Thornton has dragged the Sharks through some playoff series, and he's played with tremendous injuries too. I know people are going to play perception is reality with this but the fact is that the whole myth of Joe Thornton, playoff ghost is hugely overblown. And it's not a fair thing to penalize him for.

Everyone plays through injuries.

He's had plenty of series where his play is tremendously underwhelming. It is 100% fair to criticize him when his peers around the league are having outstanding playoffs and he isn't.

The other thing is that Joe is not and has never been a big goal-scorer.

So? That's a giant negative against him.

Joe Thornton's job is to help this team win. If his past-first attitude is a barrier to that, that isn't a positive in his favour. Gretzky, Oates, Forsberg...other great playmakers, almost universally, started scoring more goals relative to their assists come the playoffs. Its just what you have to do when space dries up and there becomes a premium on driving and attacking the net.

This is why I always point to how JT's numbers deflate as a series progresses. Against better teams, series tend to go longer, and against better teams, they will have the tools and ability to adapt to you; they adapt well to JT.

So if other players fail to show up, of course it's going to translate into reflecting poorly on him. but I don't see how or why you can hold it against him if his perfect passes don't get converted.

I think this is the myth that JT is making these perfect passes and everyone is just wiffing on them. In reality, Thornton's passes get stymied...good defenses learn his style and tendencies, and shut him down.

I would also argue that "the era he's in" speaks more to the high assist totals of Gretzky and Mario than it does Thornton. It doesn't in any way diminish their greatness, but there's no real disputing that they played in the biggest era of firewagon hockey in NHL history while Joe's 90 assist seasons came on the heels of the dead-puck, clutch-and-grab NHL.

I am saying that JT's back to back 90 assist seasons came just after the lockout. I mean, he had like 50 powerplay assists both seasons.

 

[Mafoofoo]

Yet no other player put up back to back 90 assist seasons after the lockout

 

[Led Zappa]

Yet no other player put up back to back 90 assist seasons after the lockout

Irrelevant. And great hockey players should be able to improve in the PO's even if they have a broken leg.

 

[hohosaregood]

Irrelevant. And great hockey players should be able to improve in the PO's even if they have a broken leg.

I think that there are a couple injuries that almost universally lead to bad play no matter how much a player wants to play through it. Off the top of my head: broken wrist, separated shoulder, and torn cartilage are usually really bad.

Maybe not broken wrist, I gotta do more research on that one.

 

[Led Zappa]

I think that there are a couple injuries that almost universally lead to bad play no matter how much a player wants to play through it. Off the top of my head: broken wrist, separated shoulder, and torn cartilage are usually really bad.

Maybe not broken wrist, I gotta do more research on that one.

Not in Orr's world.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Yet no other player put up back to back 90 assist seasons after the lockout

Not really my point. Thornton is a great playmaker, but the fact that he's the only one to put up back-to-back 90 assist seasons isn't some huge accomplishment. His Art Ross and Hart are much more meaningful.

I think that there are a couple injuries that almost universally lead to bad play no matter how much a player wants to play through it. Off the top of my head: broken wrist, separated shoulder, and torn cartilage are usually really bad.

Maybe not broken wrist, I gotta do more research on that one.

If you are going to play, you better play well. Otherwise, don't bother suiting up, and carry the reputation as a guy who is always injured.

Torn rib cartilage is a serious injury, but players have been very effective with broken wrists and separated shoulders, especially in the modern age with modern medicine that can completely remove the pain.

Also, Joe Thornton suffered torn rib cartilage in 2004 and played with a separated shoulder for 2 games in 2011.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Irrelevant. And great hockey players should be able to improve in the PO's even if they have a broken leg.

Bobby Baun