Michael Russo: Dean Evason 5th full time head coach

[Dr Jan Itor]

Dumba came closer to playing to his contract than Spurgeon did, and that was after they had to change the pairings back to cover Spurgeon.

Yeah, none of that’s true, just because you see a contract you don’t like.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

What about the way he played the 1.5 years prior, before the injury that clearly had an effect last season?

Who’s to say it doesn’t affect the next 2 seasons too?

 

[Minnesnota]

That's an extremely low bar to set.



I don't get the luxury of having conversations with other GMs, so I don't know who's available, and I'm not ready to hold him accountable for not making a move if there really was nothing there. But players are always being discussed and moving around, there's certainly something out there us fans don't know about, and he should be able to make something happen.



I actually thought about adding an addendum about this specifically. I'm not going to bash Guerin for not trading for a goalie yet, and since he hasn't gotten to a UFA period yet to sign one, I'm not going to hold it against him. He should have been more proactive about getting Kahkonen more games this season, he didn't. But you're right, if Kahkonen can be that guy for us, I'd rather do that than pay for another goalie.



Again, yes, you're correct. But he hasn't yet, so I'm not going to assume he will or assume he'll get a good one without overpaying.



Yeah, I gave him credit for for this, but again, it doesn't mean anything in the end if he doesn't improve the roster. That's his primary job, not to be universally liked.



Fenton was here for one season, acquired Fiala. His drafts were overall very good. Donato is a good future piece if our coach can figure out how to use him properly. Fenton and his team left us with Fiala, Donato, and one of the top 10 prospect pools in the league, in just over a years time. Guerin hasn't done anything close to that yet.

Again, I'm not saying Guerin is a bad GM, I'm saying he hasn't done enough for all the praise he's getting. Can he get there? Absolutely. Is he there yet? No.

He hasn't had the opportunity to do so. He was hired in late August of 2019. He hasn't been given the opportunity of a draft or a free agency signing period.

Fenton was here for one season, acquired Fiala.

In what was a terrible trade at the time, by all accounts. We shouldn't judge things after the fact, only at the time they occur.

Fenton and his team left us with Fiala, Donato, and one of the top 10 prospect pools in the league, in just over a years time.

Fair is fair. Credit to Guerin for not getting rid of PJ Fenton though when nobody would've questioned him doing so.

 

[Minnesnota]

He f***ed the pooch pretty hard on Spurgeon

He f***ed the pooch on this season by allowing Dubnyk and Stalock to be the goaltenders

None of these are true. Just because you don't personally agree with a contract doesn't automatically make it bad. It's a rather fine contract. Spurgeon is worth it.

To your 2nd point - would love to know what Guerin should've done with those guys.

 

[AKL]

He hasn't had the opportunity to do so. He was hired in late August of 2019. He hasn't been given the opportunity of a draft or a free agency signing period.


In what was a terrible trade at the time, by all accounts. We shouldn't judge things after the fact, only at the time they occur.


Fair is fair. Credit to Guerin for not getting rid of PJ Fenton though when nobody would've questioned him doing so.

The Fiala trade wasn't terrible, it was just an issue of a missing 2nd rounder at most. We immediately got younger and cheaper, and Fiala's potential carried a majority of his value. Potential that he's now realizing. That's not judging it in hindsight, that's the value we traded for.

I recognize and understand that he hasn't had all the same opportunities yet that Fenton had. My only argument is that I'll wait to see what he does with those opportunities before I give him the praise that others have offered.

Who’s to say it doesn’t affect the next 2 seasons too?

It could, but that's not a justification for Spurgeon's contract. And if it doesn't affect Dumba for the rest of his contract or beyond, then it cost us a 50 point defenseman.

 

[2Pair]

None of these are true. Just because you don't personally agree with a contract doesn't automatically make it bad. It's a rather fine contract. Spurgeon is worth it.

To your 2nd point - would love to know what Guerin should've done with those guys.

The 3rd best defenseman on the roster is about to be the 12th highest paid defenseman in the NHL. And, he's going to be getting that salary until he's 38 fuking years old. That's a terrible contract in every way.

As for the goalies- Waive them. It's really that simple. There's probably a half dozen goaltenders that have been on waivers since Guerin took over that would be a major upgrade to Dubnyk/Stalock.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

The 3rd best defenseman on the roster is about to be the 12th highest paid defenseman in the NHL. And, he's going to be getting that salary until he's 38 fuking years old. That's a terrible contract in every way.

As for the goalies- Waive them. It's really that simple. There's probably a half dozen goaltenders that have been on waivers since Guerin took over that would be a major upgrade to Dubnyk/Stalock.

He’s not the 3rd best defenseman on the roster. Very clearly 2nd.

The Fiala trade wasn't terrible, it was just an issue of a missing 2nd rounder at most. We immediately got younger and cheaper, and Fiala's potential carried a majority of his value. Potential that he's now realizing. That's not judging it in hindsight, that's the value we traded for.

I recognize and understand that he hasn't had all the same opportunities yet that Fenton had. My only argument is that I'll wait to see what he does with those opportunities before I give him the praise that others have offered.



It could, but that's not a justification for Spurgeon's contract. And if it doesn't affect Dumba for the rest of his contract or beyond, then it cost us a 50 point defenseman.

Or it costs us Luke Kunin.

I think 7.5x5 would have been a fine contract. Or 6-6.5x7 would have been fine. Giving a (effectively) 31 year old a 7 year contract at 7.5 with full trade protection until he's 35, and then partial trade protection after that?

I'm not concerned about the first few years of the contract, I'm concerned about the last 3-4 when we'll need that money and roster flexibility with our young players. Fiala, Kaprizov, Boldy and likely our top pick this year will all need new contracts in that timeframe, and although you can say Spurgeon is worth it now and we can worry about it down the line if he isn't, the trade protection and money he gave to Spurgeon combined will almost certainly cost us someone in the future.

So just to be clear, you’re fine at 7 x $6.5m but the extra $1m makes it terrible and causes all of these worries about keeping Fiala and Kaprizov around? That’s the leap that I can’t make.

 

[AKL]

So just to be clear, you’re fine at 7 x $6.5m but the extra $1m makes it terrible and causes all of these worries about keeping Fiala and Kaprizov around? That’s the leap that I can’t make.

And the movement protection.

 

[2Pair]

He’s not the 3rd best defenseman on the roster. Very clearly 2nd.



Or it costs us Luke Kunin.



So just to be clear, you’re fine at 7 x $6.5m but the extra $1m makes it terrible and causes all of these worries about keeping Fiala and Kaprizov around? That’s the leap that I can’t make.

There's zero argument that Spurgeon is currently better than Brodin. None

 

[Minnesnota]

And the movement protection.

If Guerin could've got Spurgeon at 7 x $6.5m don't you think he would've?

There's zero argument that Spurgeon is currently better than Brodin. None

I'm going to say something many may find really stupid, but I rank our defenders like this:

Brodin
Spurgeon
Suter
Dumba
Soucy
who cares

 

[Mickey the mouse]

And the movement protection.

I'm willing to bet that Owner was a MAJOR PART of Spurgeon contract to win fan base back after his Fenton "show"

 

[Mickey the mouse]

If Guerin could've got Spurgeon at 7 x $6.5m don't you think he would've?


I'm going to say something many may find really stupid, but I rank our defenders like this:

Brodin
Spurgeon
Suter
Dumba
Soucy
who cares

Not stupid at all
1. Suter / 1A. Brodin - Suter gets every grade A chance
Spurgeon
Dumba

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

There's zero argument that Spurgeon is currently better than Brodin. None

Brodin had a great 7/8’s of a season this year. No doubt about it.

 

[2Pair]

If Guerin could've got Spurgeon at 7 x $6.5m don't you think he would've?


I'm going to say something many may find really stupid, but I rank our defenders like this:

Brodin
Spurgeon
Suter
Dumba
Soucy
who cares

If Spurgeon was stuck on 7 years, at any price, then you trade him and move on. Or, you call his bluff and sign him to your terms a month into the season when it's clear that his ask was ridiculous. If Spurgeon was about to be a UFA, he's looking at 5 years $6M at the top end.

Suter is still the best player on the team, and it's not all that close.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

I'm willing to bet that Owner was a MAJOR PART of Spurgeon contract to win fan base back after his Fenton "show"

The right side of the defense last September isn’t exactly the right side we see today.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

If Spurgeon was stuck on 7 years, at any price, then you trade him and move on. Or, you call his bluff and sign him to your terms a month into the season when it's clear that his ask was ridiculous. If Spurgeon was about to be a UFA, he's looking at 5 years $6M at the top end.

Suter is still the best player on the team, and it's not all that close.

1. I don’t begrudge anybody that would’ve rather traded him than signed him. It’s a perfectly valid hockey decision.

2. You explicitly said that Spurgeon needed to either be traded or extended before game 1 last summer.

3. 5 x $6M isn’t close to the top end if he was a UFA this off season.

 

[2Pair]

1. I don’t begrudge anybody that would’ve rather traded him than signed him. It’s a perfectly valid hockey decision.

2. You explicitly said that Spurgeon needed to either be traded or extended before game 1 last summer.

3. 5 x $6M isn’t close to the top end if he was a UFA this off season.

Yes, that's what I would've done. Because I was in favor of trading him regardless of what he wanted for a contract.
If Guerin was bent on signing him, then he needs to be willing to take a risk and either stand firm on a realistic number or force Spurgeon to take a risk. It isn't really hard for a GM to give a player everything that he wants, and that's exactly what Guerin did.

Not much chance that Spurgeon even gets 5x$6M if he were a UFA right now.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Yes, that's what I would've done. Because I was in favor of trading him regardless of what he wanted for a contract.
If Guerin was bent on signing him, then he needs to be willing to take a risk and either stand firm on a realistic number or force Spurgeon to take a risk. It isn't really hard for a GM to give a player everything that he wants, and that's exactly what Guerin did.

Not much chance that Spurgeon even gets 5x$6M if he were a UFA right now.

COVID cap? Possibly. That definitely changed things a bit.

Normal times? There’s a great chance that he does. Almost 100%.

 

[2Pair]

COVID cap? Possibly. That definitely changed things a bit.

Normal times? There’s a great chance that he does. Almost 100%.

Let's simplify the discussion a bit. Do you think Guerin had to do some hard word and difficult negotiating to get Spurgeon to sign the contract that he did?

Bonus question - If (hypothetically of course) Calgary agreed to trade Sean Monahan for one of Dumba, Brodin, or Spurgeon, which one would you choose to give up?

 

[57special]

To me, it's;

Spurgeon/ Suter(used to be clear cut best, GREAT defender, but his foot speed has gone down since injury, allowing him to get beat to the outside. His stats are also inflated because of favorable TOI, but he's still damn good, and Spurgeon makes him even better.)

Brodin(Best defender, arguably, as Spurgeon is also terrific)

Dumba(Brodin's alter ego. If he gets his mojo back, scoring 45-50 points, then I'll reconsider ranking)
Soucy (loved him last year. have to see if he can repeat)

And I say this as someone who loves Brodin. What Brodin and Dumba have going for them over the top two is the likelihood that they will have useful careers for at least another 7-8 years. They are the future, as Suter and Spurgeon (shown no signs yet)decline due to age.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Let's simplify the discussion a bit. Do you think Guerin had to do some hard word and difficult negotiating to get Spurgeon to sign the contract that he did?

Bonus question - If (hypothetically of course) Calgary agreed to trade Sean Monahan for one of Dumba, Brodin, or Spurgeon, which one would you choose to give up?

I think it was a pretty easy contract for Spurgeon to sign. I wouldn't have blamed Guerin if he drew a harder line in one of the areas (dollars, term, trade protection). I don't think less of Spurgeon because Guerin didn't though. And none of that makes me jump from thinking a 6 x $6.5M deal is great, and a 7 x $7.5M deal is God awful. It's too big of leap, IMO. But it is a number that I don't blame people if they would've rather moved on from. It doesn't make Spurgeon the root of every defensive ill that should befall us over the next 7 years.

As for the bonus question, it's probably Dumba, but I can admit that it's fairly close. Upgrading the top 6, especially at the center position, the onus on the defense to provide offense isn't as important. I'd probably opt for the better all around player.

If we're just talking about ability, I think our defense is just better over the next 5 or so years if we're trotting out Suter, Spurgeon and Brodin/Dumba vs. Suter, Brodin and Dumba.

 

[AKL]

To be clear, I don't think 6x6.5 is a great contract, I think it's fine. The biggest factor that makes it bad is the NMC. Considering he's going to be 31 at the start of next season and has never put up the offense Dumba has, a good or great contract would have been 5x6m, maybe with a 10 team NTC, not a full NMC. I would have been happy with that contract.

 

[2Pair]

I think it was a pretty easy contract for Spurgeon to sign. I wouldn't have blamed Guerin if he drew a harder line in one of the areas (dollars, term, trade protection). I don't think less of Spurgeon because Guerin didn't though. And none of that makes me jump from thinking a 6 x $6.5M deal is great, and a 7 x $7.5M deal is God awful. It's too big of leap, IMO. But it is a number that I don't blame people if they would've rather moved on from. It doesn't make Spurgeon the root of every defensive ill that should befall us over the next 7 years.

As for the bonus question, it's probably Dumba, but I can admit that it's fairly close. Upgrading the top 6, especially at the center position, the onus on the defense to provide offense isn't as important. I'd probably opt for the better all around player.

If we're just talking about ability, I think our defense is just better over the next 5 or so years if we're trotting out Suter, Spurgeon and Brodin/Dumba vs. Suter, Brodin and Dumba.

I know that you understand the salary cap well enough to know that this is a lie.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

I know that you understand the salary cap well enough to know that this is a lie.

I do. I just don't think, naively perhaps, that $1.5M is going to make or break much of anything the next couple years. Only 2 years, and then who knows if there'd even be a difference anymore.

We can comfortably sign everybody we need to this off season, with room to poke around for center. Next off season, trading Dumba or Brodin (if that happens due to the ED) pays for Fiala's raise. Letting Dubnyk walk (if it isn't handled prior to that) pays for much of Kaprizov's. I'm a bit concerned about what all this Foligno extension talk is about, so we'll have to wait and see there.

 

[2Pair]

I do. I just don't think, naively perhaps, that $1.5M is going to make or break much of anything the next couple years. Only 2 years, and then who knows if there'd even be a difference anymore.

We can comfortably sign everybody we need to this off season, with room to poke around for center. Next off season, trading Dumba or Brodin (if that happens due to the ED) pays for Fiala's raise. Letting Dubnyk walk (if it isn't handled prior to that) pays for much of Kaprizov's. I'm a bit concerned about what all this Foligno extension talk is about, so we'll have to wait and see there.

It's not just the $1.5M and you know that. When you consider a 30 year old defenseman paid until he's 37 against a 25 year old defenseman paid for 3 more years, it becomes a no-brainer. When you consider the full NMC, it becomes a no-brainer. When you consider the 25 year old has already had a better season than anything the 30 year old has done? Yeah, you know the rest.

I"m trying to stay in the same "what's done is done, no use crying about it now" attitude that you have about this, the only difference is that I don't pretend that it wasn't a mistake when the disussion comes up.